Skwim
Veteran Member
So people are still at the mercy of the whims of god as to whether or not they avoid hell.
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Saved By Grace Or Saved By Works?
- Thread starter Skwim
- Start date
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I beg to differ, or at least your Bible does.
Matthew 25:31-46
When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, “Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.” . . . Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. . . . And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Your eternal life will simply be in hell and not in heaven.
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The punishment is fire and the fire is eternal. It is not same as that one lives there eternally. Bible is very clear on that the wage of sin is death.
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23
And those who are thrown to that fire lake, are destroyed.
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28
Skwim
Veteran Member
Really!
2 Thessalonians
5 This is proof that God is right in his judgment. He wants you to be worthy of his kingdom. Your suffering is for that kingdom. 6 God will do what is right. He will punish those who are causing you trouble. 7 And he will bring relief to you who are troubled. He will bring it to you and to us when the Lord Jesus comes from heaven for all to see, together with his powerful angels. 8 He will come with burning fire to punish those who don’t know God—those who refuse to accept the Good News about our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with a destruction that never ends. They will not be allowed to be with the Lord but will be kept away from his great power. 10 This will happen on the day when the Lord Jesus comes to receive honor with his holy people. He will be admired among all who have believed. And this includes you because you believed what we told you.
Revelation 14:9-11
9 A third angel followed the first two angels. This third angel said in a loud voice, “God will punish all those who worship the beast and the beast’s idol and agree to have the beast’s mark on their forehead or on their hand. 10 They will drink the wine of God’s anger. This wine is prepared with all its strength in the cup of God’s anger. They will be tortured with burning sulfur before the holy angels and the Lamb. 11 And the smoke from their burning pain will rise forever and ever. There will be no rest, day or night, for those who worship the beast and its idol or who wear the mark of its name.”
Isaiah 66:23-24
23 From month to month and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all humanity will come to worship me, says the Lord. 24 They will go out and see the corpses of the people who rebelled against me, where their worm never dies, where their fire is never extinguished. They will be a horror to everyone.
5 This is proof that God is right in his judgment. He wants you to be worthy of his kingdom. Your suffering is for that kingdom. 6 God will do what is right. He will punish those who are causing you trouble. 7 And he will bring relief to you who are troubled. He will bring it to you and to us when the Lord Jesus comes from heaven for all to see, together with his powerful angels. 8 He will come with burning fire to punish those who don’t know God—those who refuse to accept the Good News about our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with a destruction that never ends. They will not be allowed to be with the Lord but will be kept away from his great power. 10 This will happen on the day when the Lord Jesus comes to receive honor with his holy people. He will be admired among all who have believed. And this includes you because you believed what we told you.
Revelation 14:9-11
9 A third angel followed the first two angels. This third angel said in a loud voice, “God will punish all those who worship the beast and the beast’s idol and agree to have the beast’s mark on their forehead or on their hand. 10 They will drink the wine of God’s anger. This wine is prepared with all its strength in the cup of God’s anger. They will be tortured with burning sulfur before the holy angels and the Lamb. 11 And the smoke from their burning pain will rise forever and ever. There will be no rest, day or night, for those who worship the beast and its idol or who wear the mark of its name.”
Isaiah 66:23-24
23 From month to month and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all humanity will come to worship me, says the Lord. 24 They will go out and see the corpses of the people who rebelled against me, where their worm never dies, where their fire is never extinguished. They will be a horror to everyone.
Nope. Better dress for the fires of hell because it may be your everlasting home.
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IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
This is not rocket science. It doesn't take volumes of theology. God calls us to obey. "To obey is better than sacrifice." It IS possible to keep all the commandments.
Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, "Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it. Deuteronomy 30:11-14
However, there is a part two. Although God has outlined consequences and warned Israel continually, he is not a God that wants to punish, but to forgive, if we but repent of our sin and turn back to his ways. "Who is a God like unto Thee, that pardoneth the iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of His heritage? He retaineth not His anger for ever, because He delighteth in mercy." Micah 7:18
They all tell just that the place is eternal, it burns forever and one who is destroyed doesn’t obviously have anything anymore, not even rest.
Skwim
Veteran Member
In several places the Bible says the suffering will be forever, but in another place the Bible says a person will be destroyed---apparently unable to suffer from there on.
So, which is it? Do I get to choose?
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I think the correct understanding is, the fire is eternal. And the fire is called with many names, punishment, suffering. And things that are there can burn forever and so they "suffer" from fire forever. That is not same as they live and feel anything. Similarly as if you put wood on fire, the wood suffers from the fire, but not by feeling it but by that it has taste of the fire, obtains the fire, or bears/carries the fire. Suffering doesn't necessary mean that one is feeling pain.
Skwim
Veteran Member
Gotta tell ya, I sincerely doubt non-living things suffer.
Yeah, I was waiting for the Fallacy of Equivocation to raise its ugly head. Nice try. But recall Revelation 14:9-11 I quoted, where it said
". . . .their burning pain will rise forever and ever."
Who do you think their refers to?
What do you think forever and ever means?
Can't pretend the verse doesn't exist, now can you?...................................................................or maybe you can. Sure, why not! That's why Cherry-Picking is so popular among Christians.
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Please tell what translation are you using?
The “burning pain” means the burning place. It means the fire lake. It burns forever. But it is not same as that they will live forever and feel it forever. But, this is just how I understand it. You are free to disagree.
Skwim
Veteran Member
I think it was the New Century Version, but I'm not sure.
Other than yourself, who says so? .......BUT, it isn't "the 'burning pain' " It's "their burning pain."
And if you read the chapter the "their" refers to "anyone [who] worships the beast. . . ."
Why thank you.
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metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Both faith and works are mandated, so it's not an either/or thingy. If one believes in Jesus, we will do what he mandated us to do. If we don't, then I guess we really don't believe in him.
Skwim
Veteran Member
So I can avoid hell by doing good deeds or just wait for god's grace to kick in. One for those with a lot of energy and one for those with absolutely none. Interesting concept.
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metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
I don't get into the applied "judging" part-- it's beyond my lowly pay grade.
Firstly, there is no burning fiery hell, because this is not what the Bible teaches. No one can avoid going to the Bible's "hell" (Sheol, hades) because everyone goes there.....it is nothing more terrifying than the common grave of mankind.
"Gehenna" is where the unquenchable fire is.....but it is figurative, not literal. Translating "Gehenna" as "hell" is where the confusion starts. If you understand what "gehenna" is then you know why Jesus used it as a metaphor.
Since the dead are not conscious, (Ecclesiastes 9:5; 10) there is no way to torture them. Why would God do that anyway? No law in Israel ever included torture. The death penalty was the highest anyone could pay.
In order to punish the wicked, God would need to give them eternal life.....but unending life is promised only to the righteous. The wicked are "destroyed" in hell....it simply means no resurrection.....eternal death.
"Sheol" in Hebrew is "hades" in Greek. The pagan Greeks believed in a burning hell, so "hades" was given a Greek interpretation rather than a Jewish one.
The requirements for everlasting life are clear and simple....just follow the two commandments given by Jesus....often called "the law of love".
Matthew 22: 34-40....
"After the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they came together in one group. 35 And one of them, versed in the Law, tested him by asking: 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 He said to him: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this: ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.”
The most important Commandment says that we must first love God with everything we have....our whole heart, mind and soul.....you cannot love God if you don't know him. People often want to judge God, but few really want to get to know him, so fulfilling the first Commandment is almost impossible for them. But the first Commandment motivates the second which Paul defines a this way....
"Do not owe anything to anyone except to love one another; for whoever loves his fellow man has fulfilled the law. 9 For the law code, “You must not commit adultery, you must not murder, you must not steal, you must not covet,” and whatever other commandment there is, is summed up in this saying: “You must love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does not work evil to one’s neighbor; therefore, love is the law’s fulfillment."
So there you have it. If you fulfill the first Commandment, the second becomes correctly motivated, but if you only perform the second, at best you are a good humanitarian. You have left out the most important element.....wholehearted love of God.
"God is love"....so he is not about mere performance; it must be motivated by love for him....and to truly "know" God, is to love him. (John 17:3)
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
74x12
Well-Known Member
Not mutually exclusive. So if someone offered you a job you didn't deserve and you weren't even good at. They also carefully trained you and paid you very well ... you don't think that undeserved job is by grace? They could have chosen someone much more qualified. Instead they choose you and help you do your job the whole time. No matter how many mistakes you make they don't fire you either as long as you keep trying. They let you keep trying.
My point is that is what Jesus came to do for humans. If you compare earth to a prison and we're all inmates then Jesus an innocent person enters the prison to help the dysfunctional prisoners learn to be productive citizens and eventually get out of prison and join decent society.
It's by grace that we do works and it's not even us; but Christ in us doing the works. Or that's the way it's supposed to be according to scriptures.
Skwim
Veteran Member
Poor analogy.
In the job I got better and was an asset to the organization. There was a benefit in helping me out.
In life, if I never overcame my sinning god wouldn't be saving me for my non-existent goodness. So if he did It would only be by his grace.
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74x12
Well-Known Member
And some people's salvation is only by grace like the thief on the cross for example. Some people can be saved on their death bed even though they did wrong their whole life. That's the mercy or clemency of God. We can't underestimate the patience or mercy of God towards people.
But, as Jesus said if God gives more; then He expects more. (Luke 12:48) So for example the parable of the talents. (Matthew 25:14-30) Each servant was given a sum of money to invest. God expects a profit on His investment but He still gave you the money in the first place.
And the analogy is of the holy Spirit that God gives people a measure of when they receive Him. The currency is the Spirit and the profit are the fruits of the Spirit.
He wants fruitfulness which are the fruits of the Spirit. Love, joy, peace, patience etc. (Galatians 5:22-23) All these fruits of the Spirit are only born(perfected) through works. Which is how works save people. For example James said "faith without works is dead". And John says "let us not love in word neither in tongue but in deed and in truth". So again real love is shown in action not words. However, without the holy Spirit we can do nothing. (John 15:5) Just as a branch can't bear fruit without being attached to the vine and thus to the roots and the supply of nutrients and sap. We can't be spiritually fruitful without the holy Spirit.
kjw47
Well-Known Member
All sin and fall short of the glory of God. So 0 deserve to gain eternal life in Gods kingdom. But by Grace God does save some. And yet the bible is clear--Faith without works is dead--This means. If one does good works( out of love) it builds ones faith to be a strong standing faith when under serious test. Without the works, that ones faith will fold under serious test.
But all is not as appears in a satan ruled world-2Corinthians 11:12-15
Even though it is by grace, Jesus assures all-Only those living now to do his Fathers will, get to enter his kingdom( Matthew 7:21) And one accomplishes that by learning every utterance( ot-nt) of God that Jesus teaches Man MUST live by them( daily). Few listen to Jesus.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I can't imagine where you would get that idea. I believe grace has already been provided and just needs to be accepted.