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Can you answer my post?Confused

Frank Goad

Well-Known Member
How I read it it says jesus's followers souls are coming back from heaven to earth In 1 Thessalonians 4:14.And in 2 Corinthians 5:6-8.I thought paul was just talking about how good it would be to be in heaven in general.But verse 9 to me sounds like some people who have died.Are already with God.I am so confused.:confused:Because if paul knows that the dead are gone until everyone comes back to life like in daniel 12:2.:confused:Why the confusion.Maybe you can explain.Deejee.:confused:
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Why no reply?:(
Honestly, I just don't care about this "issue". I don't take scripture literally, or sacrosanct. So I don't get caught up in these kinds of interpretive arguments or contradictions. I read scripture more as a form of literary artifice, rather than ideological dogma, so I find paradox imaginative rather than consternating.
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
Well its a bit weird one and think maybe one would have to get into some of the differences between OT and NT, haven't look all that much into Ecclesiastes, so would probably have to read it again.

In 1 Thessalonians Paul is basically just telling them that those that are dead, will not be forgotten but will be with Jesus and God. So to me at least it seems to be a sort of "stay strong in the faith" because it will pay off in the end, or to make sure that those that might have lost someone dear to them, that these will now be with God, which is good.

Corinthians seems to be about trust and that you should just blindly give yourself to this. Basically just have faith and don't ask so damn many questions kind of thing :D

In regards to Ecclesiastes I think one have to read it in all its contexts to understand the verse you reference. But as I understand it, (Again I haven't read all of it, so might be wrong!!) but what he might be trying to explain is that what people achieve on Earth, while they are living have no value after they die and that all humans are judged equally by God. I think one have to read the very last part of it to understand it:

Ecclesiastes 12: 13-14

13 Now all has been heard;
here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments,
for this is the duty of all mankind.
14 For God will bring every deed into judgment,
including every hidden thing,
whether it is good or evil.


Again remember that Paul is of the believe that you are saved through believing and accepting Jesus, while those that wrote the OT ain't sharing that belief. So obviously a Jew in the OT is answering to God and him alone and with Paul, it seems that as long as you accept that Jesus died for our sins then you will be saved, which is probably the only way he could sell it to the gentiles.
 
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74x12

Well-Known Member
Mark 12:26-27 is another good one.

Jesus makes the point that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob cannot be dead because God is not the God of the dead but the living. That means they are (presently) alive somewhere or Jesus wouldn't say this.

You see God had called Himself "the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob" long after these 3 patriarchs had died. So this meant that to God; they still lived. And so they do.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
What do you think of 1 Thessalonians 4:14 and 2 Corinthians 5:6-9?When you read it?When compared to Ecclesiastes 9:5?:confused:

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so those who have fallen asleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1 Thessalonians 4:14

Being therefore always of good courage, and knowing that, while we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord; for we walk by faith, not by sight. We are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord. Therefore also we make it our aim, whether at home or absent, to be well pleasing to him.
2 Corinthians 5:6-9

For the living know that they will die, but the dead don't know anything, neither do they have any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecclesiastes 9:5

Ecclesiastes 9:5 is speaking of dead, but 1 Thes. and 2 Cor. are not speaking of dead person.
 

Workman

UNIQUE
[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

This be the liars that I bring out them..the ones whom don’t believe in Jesus(sleep in Jesus), I can see who hides under their masks of who they really are.

(For They don’t know who or where their tongue speaks from...FOR I DO!,
Instead of letting their own hands do the work, they have let their own tongue do all their work for them..such a fool one can become.)

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

[9] Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.


This is where I dwell!..I Am Not with you all!..I do NOT live your reality(by sight),
I live my Body(conscious): for I am confident as my Home.
I walk the Poor man wondering(by faith) the lifes unfold ahead of me..I do not plan A tomorrow but let each moment plan for who I am. If God Permits: I am confident through faith in “My Lord My God”. I do not Live (Like) your Lords that takes you,
For I would rather be...
‘The Lord with God’...My Own ‘Custom’.

The number Nine[9]...was a referral to the rest of you..Your Free-Will.

Hint: Love is NoT an Idea..however! we DO what we live for a world made of idea(s). Except there is no ideas of Love(God)....seek!

(And so they know: Love does not EXIST! They have NO ‘idea’ what love means)
 
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LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
Mark 12:26-27 is another good one.

Jesus makes the point that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob cannot be dead because God is not the God of the dead but the living. That means they are (presently) alive somewhere or Jesus wouldn't say this.

You see God had called Himself "the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob" long after these 3 patriarchs had died. So this meant that to God; they still lived. And so they do.
If you look at the context of what Jesus said, you'll notice he is talking about the resurrection of the dead and how Moses teaches it. Moses teaches the resurrection of the dead by saying that God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob because to God they are alive and not dead. And the reason is because there is to be a resurrection of the dead.
God often "calls things that be not as though they were". Another good example is when He told Abraham that he was a father of nations even before Abraham had any children.
 

moorea944

Well-Known Member
If you look at the context of what Jesus said, you'll notice he is talking about the resurrection of the dead and how Moses teaches it. Moses teaches the resurrection of the dead by saying that God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob because to God they are alive and not dead. And the reason is because there is to be a resurrection of the dead.
God often "calls things that be not as though they were". Another good example is when He told Abraham that he was a father of nations even before Abraham had any children.


Great post thanks!
In scripture, we're told that when your dead, your dead. There will be a resurrection, but it is not universal, it is conditional. Not all people who die will be raised.

Unfortunately, people has taken the words "soul" and "spirit" out of context, and now we have this "immortal soul" thing that scripture knows nothing of. Life after death goes back to pagan times thousands of years ago. We have to remember that we ARE a soul. Soul and spirit can be written in different ways, it can be written as life, person, mind, the way i'm feeling........ But NEVER something that we are given. Man was never "given" a soul.

Sometimes the way God talks or speaks, he is speaking as though it has already happened. He knows the beginning to the end. He knows that there will be a resurrection and we will follow that. He is the God of Abraham. Abraham is dead. But he knows that he will be alive again someday. That is why he is the God of the living.

Look at Acts 2. Peter is also mentioning things about death and heaven going, because..... there are some people that have it wrong. Peter says that David never went to heaven. His grave is still with us. People dont die and go to heaven. They are dead until resurrection. David was even told that in 2 Sam 7!

Jesus even says in John chapters 7,8 and 13, when he was talking about when he would go to heaven, that nobody would EVER follow him there. We also look at Lev 16 with Heb 9.

We should always let the bible speak for it's self!!!!

Great post, thanks again!!!
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
If you look at the context of what Jesus said, you'll notice he is talking about the resurrection of the dead and how Moses teaches it. Moses teaches the resurrection of the dead by saying that God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob because to God they are alive and not dead. And the reason is because there is to be a resurrection of the dead.
God often "calls things that be not as though they were". Another good example is when He told Abraham that he was a father of nations even before Abraham had any children.
That doesn't explain Jesus talking with Moses.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
moorea944 said:
Look at Acts 2. Peter is also mentioning things about death and heaven going, because..... there are some people that have it wrong. Peter says that David never went to heaven. His grave is still with us. People dont die and go to heaven. They are dead until resurrection. David was even told that in 2 Sam 7!

There seems to be great confusion over the question of who goes to heaven. Some imagine that all of Christ's followers will go there, and some have other ideas.....what does the Bible actually say about this?

John 14:23...Jesus said...
"In the house of my Father are many dwelling places. Otherwise, I would have told you, for I am going my way to prepare a place for you. 3 Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will receive you home to myself, so that where I am you also may be."

Jesus said that he was going away to 'prepare a place' for his apostles 'in his Father's house'. Clearly he was speaking about heaven.
The apostle Paul spoke of those with the "heavenly calling", (Hebrews 3:1) so again some had an expectation of going to heaven, so that where Jesus was, they would be also. Those who received an anointing with God's spirit had in inordinate desire to go there.

In John's Revelation he tells of a limited number who are chosen by God

Revelation 14:1-3
"Then I saw, and look! the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who have his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. . . . .And they are singing what seems to be a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth."

The ones chosen to go to heaven are a limited number who will have a specific role in the heavenly kingdom. "Mount Zion" is not the same as the one on Earth....this is "heavenly Jerusalem" the true seat of God's worship and the location of the grand spiritual temple of God where priests will officiate.

Revelation 20:6 tells us...
"Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years."

Christ and his 144,000 will rule from heaven as "kings and priests".....these it says are resurrected "first"....Jesus promised to return and take them "home"....so their resurrection would have to wait until he came back for them.

Paul speaks of this.....

1 Thessalonians 4:15-16....
"For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first."

"The dead in Christ" are the chosen ones....the elect. All would sleep in death until Christ's return......all of Christ's elect had that desire to be with their Lord in heaven. (1 Thessalonians 4:17)

Jesus even says in John chapters 7,8 and 13, when he was talking about when he would go to heaven, that nobody would EVER follow him there. We also look at Lev 16 with Heb 9.

Jesus told his disciples that they could not come with him when he left because it was not time for them to take up their positions as yet......so many things had to be accomplished on earth before the Kingdom would begin its rule. Jesus gave a composite sign that would alert his disciples that the "last days" or "the end of the age" was close. (Matthew 24:3-14) The Kingdom would "come" but not in the way most expected. (Daniel 2:44; Matthew 24:42-44)

So when Christ began his rulership, only then would his "joint-heirs" join him in heaven in the "first resurrection". None of them knew that they would sleep for centuries.

Romans 8:15-17
"For all who are led by God’s spirit are indeed God’s sons. 15 For you did not receive a spirit of slavery causing fear again, but you received a spirit of adoption as sons, by which spirit we cry out: “Abba, Father!” 16 The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 If, then, we are children, we are also heirs—heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ—provided we suffer together so that we may also be glorified together."

Just as Christ was glorified in his resurrection, so too the chosen ones will experience a glorious transformation in their resurrection to heavenly life.

The general resurrection of the dead (those not chosen for heavenly rulership) would not take place until all things in connection with the kingdom had been established on earth. (John 5:28-29) True to Jesus promise..."the meek will inherit the earth", to be ruled by the best government that mankind could ever have....finally God's will can be done "on earth as it is in heaven".

Revelation 21:2-4
"I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

What a wonderful prospect! "New Jerusalem" brings Christ's rulership to the Earth, to redeemed "mankind"....eliminating all causes of pain and suffering.

We should always let the bible speak for it's self!!!

Yes indeed. :) This is what I believe the Bible teaches.
 

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
There seems to be great confusion over the question of who goes to heaven. Some imagine that all of Christ's followers will go there, and some have other ideas.....what does the Bible actually say about this?

John 14:23...Jesus said...
"In the house of my Father are many dwelling places. Otherwise, I would have told you, for I am going my way to prepare a place for you. 3 Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will receive you home to myself, so that where I am you also may be."

Jesus said that he was going away to 'prepare a place' for his apostles 'in his Father's house'. Clearly he was speaking about heaven.
The apostle Paul spoke of those with the "heavenly calling", (Hebrews 3:1) so again some had an expectation of going to heaven, so that where Jesus was, they would be also. Those who received an anointing with God's spirit had in inordinate desire to go there.

In John's Revelation he tells of a limited number who are chosen by God

Revelation 14:1-3
"Then I saw, and look! the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who have his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. . . . .And they are singing what seems to be a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth."

The ones chosen to go to heaven are a limited number who will have a specific role in the heavenly kingdom. "Mount Zion" is not the same as the one on Earth....this is "heavenly Jerusalem" the true seat of God's worship and the location of the grand spiritual temple of God where priests will officiate.

Revelation 20:6 tells us...
"Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years."

Christ and his 144,000 will rule from heaven as "kings and priests".....these it says are resurrected "first"....Jesus promised to return and take them "home"....so their resurrection would have to wait until he came back for them.

Paul speaks of this.....

1 Thessalonians 4:15-16....
"For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first."

"The dead in Christ" are the chosen ones....the elect. All would sleep in death until Christ's return......all of Christ's elect had that desire to be with their Lord in heaven. (1 Thessalonians 4:17)



Jesus told his disciples that they could not come with him when he left because it was not time for them to take up their positions as yet......so many things had to be accomplished on earth before the Kingdom would begin its rule. Jesus gave a composite sign that would alert his disciples that the "last days" or "the end of the age" was close. (Matthew 24:3-14) The Kingdom would "come" but not in the way most expected. (Daniel 2:44; Matthew 24:42-44)

So when Christ began his rulership, only then would his "joint-heirs" join him in heaven in the "first resurrection". None of them knew that they would sleep for centuries.

Romans 8:15-17
"For all who are led by God’s spirit are indeed God’s sons. 15 For you did not receive a spirit of slavery causing fear again, but you received a spirit of adoption as sons, by which spirit we cry out: “Abba, Father!” 16 The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 If, then, we are children, we are also heirs—heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ—provided we suffer together so that we may also be glorified together."

Just as Christ was glorified in his resurrection, so too the chosen ones will experience a glorious transformation in their resurrection to heavenly life.

The general resurrection of the dead (those not chosen for heavenly rulership) would not take place until all things in connection with the kingdom had been established on earth. (John 5:28-29) True to Jesus promise..."the meek will inherit the earth", to be ruled by the best government that mankind could ever have....finally God's will can be done "on earth as it is in heaven".

Revelation 21:2-4
"I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

What a wonderful prospect! "New Jerusalem" brings Christ's rulership to the Earth, to redeemed "mankind"....eliminating all causes of pain and suffering.



Yes indeed. :) This is what I believe the Bible teaches.

Where does the Bible say that the 144,000 are resurrected first?
 
The 144000 Jews as firstfruits and together with the early martyrs of Christ, beheaded followers of Jesus were already been resurrected first and are in heaven now.

Revelation of John 20:4-5
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Where does the Bible say that the 144,000 are resurrected first?

1Corinthians 15:20-28.....

"20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep in death. 21 For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man. 22 For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each one in his own proper order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence."

How is Christ the "firstfruits of those who sleep in death? He is not the first person to be resurrected, but the first human raised to spirit life in heaven. His death payed for Adam's sin and released his children from the sentence of death by assuring them of a return to life. But Paul makes it clear that there is an order in the resurrection of the dead. Jesus was first, but Paul said that his anointed disciples would "sleep" until his return, when he promised to take them "home". (See my previous post)

You will notice that this is during Christ's "presence" (not his "coming"). Jesus gave a multi-faceted sign to alert his living disciples that he was "present". If it was a clearly discernible event, a sign would not be necessary. Clearly Jesus' presence (parousia) was to be signalled by what he said in Matthew 24:3-14.....unprecedented war, food shortages, pestilence, great earthquakes, false Messiahs, an increase in lawlessness and the love of people for one another becoming cold, uncaring. (See also Luke 21:7-33)

We believe that 1914 was the beginning of the "time of the end" foretold by Daniel. He was told that his prophesies would not be understood until that time when God would open up an abundance of knowledge. (Daniel 12:4; 9-10) At that time God would cause a "cleansing, whitening and refining" of his worshippers.....the wicked would not accept the cleansing and would therefore be given no insight or understanding of what was taking place, remaining in a spiritual unclean condition.

Only in this "time of the end" would all the things foretold concerning the kingdom be fulfilled, including the "first resurrection" of those "dead in Christ"...his 144,000 anointed ones.

The general resurrection of the dead does not take place until all enemies of God are defeated. Unfortunately, "many" who assume that they are serving the interests of the Lord Jesus Christ, but who are failing at "doing the will of the Father" will suffer a complete and devastating rejection. (Matthew 7:21-23) We must therefore be vigilant about what we accept as Bible truth. We cannot compromise our faith or participate in pagan practices disguised as "Christian" traditions. (2 Corinthians 6:14-18)

"24 Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone."

This is interesting because Paul now jumps forward in time to when "the end" comes. This is not the "end of the age", because in context, he is speaking about a time after that has already taken place.....this is the end of the Kingdom's purpose.....which was to bring about reconciliation of redeemed humanity back with their Creator.....a relationship that was severed in the beginning by Adam. Jesus' death bought back what Adam had lost for his children. The role of the Kingdom is to repair that damage and bring us back to God, removing the the thing that separates us from him...sin.

You see there that when Christ's mission is accomplished and the Kingdom has done all that God purposed for it to do, Jesus hands rulership back to his Father, who alone is man's rightful Sovereign. Everything returns to what God first purposed in Eden. (Isaiah 55:11)

The 144,000 are "bought from the earth" to assist Jesus in his role as Chief Administrator of the Kingdom's benefits to mankind. (Revelation 21:2-4) Since God is the one who chooses them, we have no say in who goes there. Those resurrected to life on earth will experience the joy of living forever in paradise.....it doesn't have to be heaven. That was never God's purpose in creating us.

That is what I believe the Bible teaches.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
The 144000 Jews as firstfruits and together with the early martyrs of Christ, beheaded followers of Jesus were already been resurrected first and are in heaven now.

Revelation of John 20:4-5
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Two resurrections mentioned here....the first resurrection is for those who proved faithful to their death and who were anointed with God's spirit. All of the first Christians were natural Jews, rejected by the Jewish leaders, but accepted by Christ.

"The Israel of God" spoken about by the apostle Paul (Galatians6:16) were anointed followers of Jesus, not just natural Jews because now Gentiles were counted among those who will rule in heaven with Christ.

"The rest of the dead" "come to life" in a real sense only when the 1,000 years have ended because satan is released from his prison for one last test of these ones before everlasting life is granted. (Revelation 20:1-3)
 
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