The 144.000 Jews.

sun rise said:

144,000 adult male Jewish virgins (not "defiled" themselves with women)? That impossibility is what you wind up when you start taking the Bible literally.

And, of course, the word "defile" is objectionable all on its own.

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I believe your objection is based on the concept that women are fine and wouldn't defile a man. However the word is not about the women but about the men. They are men not coupled with women so they are purely men. When a man is coupled he is not his own man anymore.

Jayhawker Soule said:

I think Revelations is so laced with nonsense as to render it worse than worthless.

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I believe a person lacking the Holy Spirit would see it that way.

sun rise said:

Even if John had, say, a vision of WWII, nuclear weapons etc, how would he have even had a frame-of-reference to set down what he saw. There are some who try to see Revelation in terms of environmental degradation, modern weapons, mass murder and so forth.

I'm not among them but to me it's a step better from unquestioned literalism.

Click to expand...

I believe symbols can be interpreted in many ways. Context becomes extremely important.

Faithofchristian said:

Nope not all, Jesus Christ will fulfill those prophecy of Matthew 24, Mark 13,Luke 21.
And 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.

Click to expand...

So Jesus Christ is coming, as described at 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10, and Matthew 25:31-46. Okay.

Faithofchristian said:

But those can not take place until the last Prophecy happens first, which Jesus Christ given in his book of Revelation.
The last Prophecy is found in
Revelation 11, When the two witnesses of God's lay dead in the street in Jerusalem for 3 and half days.
Then God calls them up to heaven and then the 7th trumpet is sounded then Jesus Christ returns.

Jesus Christ can not return until this last prophecy happens first, which brings the end to the tribulation and the return of Jesus Christ.

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How can the last prophecy be found in Revelation 11, when there are so many prophecies - like Revelation 20, 21, and 22, to follow?

Please note Revelation 11:15 is the same proclamation as Revelation 12:10. So, what event is this referring to? Does it not refer to when Jesus started to rule, in fulfillment of Psalm 110:2?

Or are you saying that this prophecy refers to Christ's beginning his rule - "coming" in that sense? Note that on that occasion, he casts the Devil, and the demons to the vicinity of the earth. So this does not refer to his coming, as described at 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10, and Matthew 25:31-46. That is yet future - Revelation 16:14-16, 17:14.
After Armageddon, many other prophecies will be fulfilled - The second resurrection will occur, the thousand year reign will begin. and the restoring to paradise - Revelation 20-22.

sooda said:

Jesus warned the early Christians that when they saw the abomination of desolation, that they should flee ... Matthew 24:16 ...'Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains.'.

This prophecy from Christ was fulfilled in AD70 when Jerusalem was destroyed by the Roman army, and those Christians who heeded the warning when the Roman army first surrounded the city in AD66 before withdrawing, fled and were saved.

Also Luke 21:21

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Jesus warned in view of what (Daniel) prophesied. (Matt. 24:15) So, what is the 'abomination of desolation' that Daniel prophesied?

You confuse (Matt. 24:16) with (Luke 21:21). (Matt. 24:16) speaks to the Tribulation. (Luke 20-21) speaks to 70 A.D.

Good-Ole-Rebel

Faithofchristian said:

If I may say, many people seem not to understand that of Matthew 24 is all about the future..not pass tents, But future tents which is still future from us.

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Yes, but of course at the time it was written, 70 A.D. was future also. As Luke was.

Good-Ole-Rebel

sooda said:

Scofield is bad theology.. and it was a political strategy to promote Christian Zionism.

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You disagree with Scofield in the area of eschatology. How does that make what he believes 'heresy'. There are more than one view of Christ's Second Coming and end time events. Prove to me that all others than yours is heresy.

Now you say it is 'bad theology'. That is different. But I want to know why you called it heresy and why you now are backing away from it?

Prove to me the 'political strategy to promote Christian Zionism' by Scofield. People love to say this. Show me how it is true.

Good-Ole-Rebel

Good-Ole-Rebel said:

You disagree with Scofield in the area of eschatology. How does that make what he believes 'heresy'. There are more than one view of Christ's Second Coming and end time events. Prove to me that all others than yours is heresy.

Now you say it is 'bad theology'. That is different. But I want to know why you called it heresy and why you now are backing away from it?

Prove to me the 'political strategy to promote Christian Zionism' by Scofield. People love to say this. Show me how it is true.

Good-Ole-Rebel

Click to expand...

Scofield was a convicted felon with NO religious training hired by Samuel Untermyer to annotate the Bible in 6 months. Untermyer was the leading Zionist in the US and the same guy who declared war on all things German from Madison Square Garden in 1933.

He published the Scofield Bible and Scofield opened the Dallas Theological Seminary.

Scofield's doctrine is about the rapture and futurism ,,, based on the dream of a teen-aged girl named Margret MacDonald in Scotland in 1815 .. This is where your pretrib rapture and the return of all Jews to the Holy lands comes from.

John Nelson Darby - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Nelson_Darby
John Nelson Darby (18 November 1800 – 29 April 1882) was an Anglo-Irish Bible teacher, one of the influential figures among the original Plymouth Brethren and the founder of the Exclusive Brethren. He is considered to be the father of modern Dispensationalism and Futurism .

nPeace said:

So Jesus Christ is coming, as described at 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10, and Matthew 25:31-46. Okay.


How can the last prophecy be found in Revelation 11, when there are so many prophecies - like Revelation 20, 21, and 22, to follow?

Please note Revelation 11:15 is the same proclamation as Revelation 12:10. So, what event is this referring to? Does it not refer to when Jesus started to rule, in fulfillment of Psalm 110:2?

Or are you saying that this prophecy refers to Christ's beginning his rule - "coming" in that sense? Note that on that occasion, he casts the Devil, and the demons to the vicinity of the earth. So this does not refer to his coming, as described at 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10, and Matthew 25:31-46. That is yet future - Revelation 16:14-16, 17:14.
After Armageddon, many other prophecies will be fulfilled - The second resurrection will occur, the thousand year reign will begin. and the restoring to paradise - Revelation 20-22.

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That's all bc, with all due respect, The last prophecy that is to happen that brings about the coming of Christ Jesus, and also brings the end to the tribulation is all found in Revelation 11.
And no other place in the book of Revelation.

Good-Ole-Rebel said:

Yes, but of course at the time it was written, 70 A.D. was future also. As Luke was.

Good-Ole-Rebel

Click to expand...

The books of Matthew 24, Mark 13,
Luke 21 and Revelation is all about prophecy that is to happen is still future from us.
All those books contain future Prophecy. When you all those books together they all point to the future which is still future from us.
Not pass tents but future tents from us.

As it is people cherry pick one verse and build off that one. When in fact the whole chapter of Matthew 24 all goes together.
As the whole chapter of Mark 13 goes with Matthew 24 and Luke 21 fit into the book of Revelation 6.

So how does Matthew 24,Mark 13,Luke 21
All fit into the book of Revelation chapter 6.

So the question is, how in what way does
Matthew 24,Mark 13, Luke 21 all line up to Revelation chapter 6.

Good-Ole-Rebel said:

Jesus warned in view of what (Daniel) prophesied. (Matt. 24:15) So, what is the 'abomination of desolation' that Daniel prophesied?

You confuse (Matt. 24:16) with (Luke 21:21). (Matt. 24:16) speaks to the Tribulation. (Luke 20-21) speaks to 70 A.D.

Good-Ole-Rebel

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Do you think Luke was writing before or after the destruction of the Temple?

sooda said:

Scofield was a convicted felon with NO religious training hired by Samuel Untermyer to annotate the Bible in 6 months. Untermyer was the leading Zionist in the US and the same guy who declared war on all things German from Madison Square Garden in 1933.

He published the Scofield Bible and Scofield opened the Dallas Theological Seminary.

Scofield's doctrine is about the rapture and futurism ,,, based on the dream of a teen-aged girl named Margret MacDonald in Scotland in 1815 .. This is where your pretrib rapture and the return of all Jews to the Holy lands comes from.

John Nelson Darby - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Nelson_Darby
John Nelson Darby (18 November 1800 – 29 April 1882) was an Anglo-Irish Bible teacher, one of the influential figures among the original Plymouth Brethren and the founder of the Exclusive Brethren. He is considered to be the father of modern Dispensationalism and Futurism .

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I guess convicted felons can't get saved. Though Scofield had no formal college or university training, he did have Bible studies from men who were trained. Dr. James Brookes being the most influential. Scofiled did start a Bible college in Dallas but it wasn't Dallas Theological Seminary. DTS was started by Lewis Sperry Chafer. Scofield also started Philadelphia College of the Bible..

That Scofield created his Study Bible to be a Zionist Bible is just not so. That he was dispensational, yes. That of course would appeal to Zionist's as it saw God's plan for Israel was not over. This affected many people's attitude towards the Jews, but that was a good thing. If this in turn was used of God to help get Israel reestablished as a nation once again, that too was a good thing.

You should read this paper written at East Tenn. State University. (From Confederate Deserter to Decorated Veteran Bible Scholar: Exploring the Enigmatic Life of C.I. Scofield) It was written by D. Jean Rushing. It can be found online. On page 95 I believe she addresses your claim of Untermeyer and his Zionist movement as the cause for Scofield's Study Bible. That just isn't so. She addresses Scofileds many faults. That wasn't one of them.

None of those things you mention are any reason to classify Scofields work as 'heresy'.

Good-Ole-Rebel

sooda said:

Do you think Luke was writing before or after the destruction of the Temple?

Click to expand...

Before.

Good-Ole-Rebel

Faithofchristian said:

The books of Matthew 24, Mark 13,
Luke 21 and Revelation is all about prophecy that is to happen is still future from us.
All those books contain future Prophecy. When you all those books together they all point to the future which is still future from us.
Not pass tents but future tents from us.

As it is people cherry pick one verse and build off that one. When in fact the whole chapter of Matthew 24 all goes together.
As the whole chapter of Mark 13 goes with Matthew 24 and Luke 21 fit into the book of Revelation 6.

So how does Matthew 24,Mark 13,Luke 21
All fit into the book of Revelation chapter 6.

So the question is, how in what way does
Matthew 24,Mark 13, Luke 21 all line up to Revelation chapter 6.

Click to expand...

As I said, yes they contain prophecy. But some of it does concern 70 A.D., which also was yet future.

Good-Ole-Rebel

Good-Ole-Rebel said:

Before.

Good-Ole-Rebel

Click to expand...

Probably not.

Gospel of Luke
At a Glance
Gospel
Genre:
(4/5) ****
Reliability of Dating:
(4/5) ****
Length of Text:
Greek
Original Language:
Ancient Translations:

Modern Translations:
English



Estimated Range of Dating: 80-130 A.D.

Gospel of Luke

Information on the Gospel of Luke
The first question that confronts one when examining Luke and Acts is whether they were written by the same person, as indicated in the prefaces.

With the agreement of nearly all scholars, Udo Schnelle writes, "the extensive linguistic and theological agreements and cross-references between the Gospel of Luke and the Acts indicate that both works derive from the same author" (The History and Theology of the New Testament Writings, p. 259).

This implies the implausibility of the hypothesis of such as John Knox that Marcion knew only Luke, not Acts, and that Acts was an anti-Marcionite production of the mid second century.

The next higher critical question is, if Luke and Acts were written by the same person, who was that person?

The oldest manuscript with the start of the gospel, Papyrus Bodmer XIV (ca. 200 CE), proclaims that it is the euangelion kata Loukan, the Gospel according to Luke.

This attestation probably does not stem from reading Irenaeus (Adv. haer. 3.1.1) or Tertullian (Adv. Marcionem 4.2.2), nor Clement of Alexandria (Paedagogus 2.1.15 and Stromata 5.12.82), who also ascribe the third Gospel to one called Luke.

Indeed, considering that the immediate recipient of Luke is mentioned in the preface, and given that the author of the third Gospel is aware that many other accounts have been drawn up before him, it is entirely probable that the author had indicated his name on the autograph.

(The "most excellent Theophilus" mentioned in the preface of Luke is most likely his patron, as seen in the similar references to "most excellent X" in the prefaces to the De libris propriis liber of Galenus, the De antiquis oratoribus of Dionysius Halicarnassensis, the Scriptor De Divinatione of Melampus, the Peri ton kata antipatheian kai sumpatheian of Nepualius, and both Josephi vita and Contra Apionem of Josephus.)

This Luke has traditionally been identified as the one named in Philemon 24 as a co-worker of Paul. Does the internal evidence support the idea that the author of Luke-Acts had known Saul of Tarsus?

continued

Good-Ole-Rebel said:

As I said, yes they contain prophecy. But some of it does concern 70 A.D., which also was yet future.

Good-Ole-Rebel

Click to expand...

How exactly can 70 A.D be in the Prophecy of Matthew 24, when in fact Matthew 24 has everything to do with Revelation Chapter 6.
Seeing that Revelation 6 is all about future events that are still to happen in the not so far distance from us.
So how is 70 A.D to line up with Revelation Chapter 6 ?

sooda said:

Probably not.

Gospel of Luke
At a Glance
Gospel
Genre:
(4/5) ****
Reliability of Dating:
(4/5) ****
Length of Text:
Greek
Original Language:
Ancient Translations:

Modern Translations:
English

Estimated Range of Dating: 80-130 A.D.

Gospel of Luke

Information on the Gospel of Luke
The first question that confronts one when examining Luke and Acts is whether they were written by the same person, as indicated in the prefaces.

With the agreement of nearly all scholars, Udo Schnelle writes, "the extensive linguistic and theological agreements and cross-references between the Gospel of Luke and the Acts indicate that both works derive from the same author" (The History and Theology of the New Testament Writings, p. 259).

This implies the implausibility of the hypothesis of such as John Knox that Marcion knew only Luke, not Acts, and that Acts was an anti-Marcionite production of the mid second century.

The next higher critical question is, if Luke and Acts were written by the same person, who was that person?

The oldest manuscript with the start of the gospel, Papyrus Bodmer XIV (ca. 200 CE), proclaims that it is the euangelion kata Loukan, the Gospel according to Luke.

This attestation probably does not stem from reading Irenaeus (Adv. haer. 3.1.1) or Tertullian (Adv. Marcionem 4.2.2), nor Clement of Alexandria (Paedagogus 2.1.15 and Stromata 5.12.82), who also ascribe the third Gospel to one called Luke.

Indeed, considering that the immediate recipient of Luke is mentioned in the preface, and given that the author of the third Gospel is aware that many other accounts have been drawn up before him, it is entirely probable that the author had indicated his name on the autograph.

(The "most excellent Theophilus" mentioned in the preface of Luke is most likely his patron, as seen in the similar references to "most excellent X" in the prefaces to the De libris propriis liber of Galenus, the De antiquis oratoribus of Dionysius Halicarnassensis, the Scriptor De Divinatione of Melampus, the Peri ton kata antipatheian kai sumpatheian of Nepualius, and both Josephi vita and Contra Apionem of Josephus.)

This Luke has traditionally been identified as the one named in Philemon 24 as a co-worker of Paul. Does the internal evidence support the idea that the author of Luke-Acts had known Saul of Tarsus?

continued

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Well, if it is 'continued' I will wait for the completion....while still waiting for your reply to post #(152).

Good-Ole-Rebel

Faithofchristian said:

How exactly can 70 A.D be in the Prophecy of Matthew 24, when in fact Matthew 24 has everything to do with Revelation Chapter 6.
Seeing that Revelation 6 is all about future events that are still to happen in the not so far distance from us.
So how is 70 A.D to line up with Revelation Chapter 6 ?

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Well, because not everything in (Matt. 24) pertains to (Rev. 6). See (Matt. 24:2) That pertained to the temple in existence,
and it's demise in 70 A.D. This is what (Luke 21:12-24) was addressing.

You never answered my question in post #(145). When did the 'abomination of desolation' get set up in the Temple prior to 70 A.D. ?

Good-Ole-Rebel

Good-Ole-Rebel said:

Well, because not everything in (Matt. 24) pertains to (Rev. 6). See (Matt. 24:2) That pertained to the temple in existence,
and it's demise in 70 A.D. This is what (Luke 21:12-24) was addressing.

You never answered my question in post #(145). When did the 'abomination of desolation' get set up in the Temple prior to 70 A.D. ?

Good-Ole-Rebel

Click to expand...

Wrong everything in Matthew 24 most certainly does pertains to the book of Revelation chapter 6.
As does Mark 13 and Luke 21. All pertains to Revelation chapter 6.
Now can you line it all up.

Good-Ole-Rebel said:

Well, because not everything in (Matt. 24) pertains to (Rev. 6). See (Matt. 24:2) That pertained to the temple in existence,
and it's demise in 70 A.D. This is what (Luke 21:12-24) was addressing.

You never answered my question in post #(145). When did the 'abomination of desolation' get set up in the Temple prior to 70 A.D. ?

Good-Ole-Rebel

Click to expand...

The first Abomination of Desolation was under Antiochus IV Epiphanes.

The cruel and violent persecutions of Antiochus Epiphanes are recorded in histories annals for all to observe. In the spring of 168 B.C., the armies of the Syrian king had arrived within four miles of the great city of Alexandria to compel the pharaohs to surrender.

But the Egyptians had appealed to Rome for assistance. A Roman fleet was anchored in the bay and their representative Popilius Laenas, soon met with the king. After drawing a circle with his staff around the Syrian king, and forcing him to give an immediate response, the king reluctantly accepted the ultimatum to depart.

After being humiliated and forced to leave Egypt, Antiochus’s vengeance was quickly turned upon Jerusalem.

He killed over eighty thousand men, women, and children and sold forty thousand into slavery (2 Macc. v. 5-14).

The holy place was robbed of its treasures and the temple was dedicated to Jupiter Olympus.

The temple was defiled by offering a sow upon the altar and scattering its juice over all the sanctuary and vessels.

He substituted the Jewish feasts with the drunken revelry of Bacchanalia, forcing the Jews to worship Bacchus, the god of pleasure and wine. The licentious festival of Saturnalia, the worship of Saturn, was also enforced upon the inhabitants.

He forbade the reading of the Holy Scriptures and the tradition of circumcision. Throwing them headlong with their infants off of the highest wall in Jerusalem, Antiochus killed two mothers who had circumcised their children in defiance of the law.

He also cut out the tongues of a mother’s seven sons and after that had each of them roasted alive on a flat iron (2 Macc. vii. 3-5).

Then the mother herself was murdered. John Walvoord notes that “a detailed description of the violent atrocities and murder of thousands of Jews by Antiochus while marching through Judea is found in 1 Maccabees 1:20-28 and 2 Maccabees 5:11-17.”