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What is the Fundamental Nature of the Will?

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
What -- if it exists in the first place -- is the fundamental (i.e. ontological) nature of the will?

Is it....

(1) some physical thing?​

(2) Or is it some metaphysical thing?
If the will is free, then doesn't that mean the will must be metaphysical in nature?
And it the will is determined, does not that mean the will is most likely physical in nature?

Comments? Questions?



__________________
Here's a tune in a futile effort to make it up to you for posting on such a boring subject.

 

PureX

Veteran Member
It is both, which anyone who has tried to diet, quit smoking, or attempted suicide can attest.

Our will is "free", but still heavily influenced by our DNA as it has been expressed through our brain's unique individual structure and function. Making it possible for us to deny the dictates of that genetic predisposition, but difficult. And externally, of course, we may will to do or be a great many things that are simply not possible for us. Yet of those that are possible for us, the choice is ours.
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
"Will" appears to exist as something that defines this experience of being able to control action. Since I experience it, this suggests something physical.

It seems to be free or not free depending on the perspective I am using. Since I operate within a system, my actions--even where I choose--are likely determined by something. But, where I define "self" as being a particular set of physical manifestations, then whatever determines these manifestations (my body, actions, choices) becomes a part of "self" and I am thus free as far as being able to choose between these parts of myself.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
If one truly has free will, would it really matter whether it was fundamentally physical or metaphysical?
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
What -- if it exists in the first place -- is the fundamental (i.e. ontological) nature of the will?

Is it....

(1) some physical thing?​

(2) Or is it some metaphysical thing?
If the will is free, then doesn't that mean the will must be metaphysical in nature?
And it the will is determined, does not that mean the will is most likely physical in nature?

Comments? Questions?

Will exists because the human brain has two centers of consciousness. The inner self is the original center of the human and pre-human brain and is connected to the operating system of natural human instinct. The ego is much newer and appeared about the time of civilization; Adam. This secondary center or ego can make choices, in conjunction, or apart from the inner self.

As an experiment, to experience both centers and also demonstrate will, make plans in advance to have someone scare you when you are not ready. If they catch you off guard, the inner self will act with quick reflexes, to the sudden threat. This spontaneous reaction from the inner self can be funny, to the outsider. because the ego affected is not in control of this reflex reaction. It can make the ego look awkward and become embarrassing to the ego. The ego would prefer pretend to be in control, via will.

After being scared, to experience the inner self, have this experiment continue over many weeks, so the ego can learn how to control the spontaneous reaction of the inner self. This gaining of ego control would be an example of developing willpower. This is a subroutine, due to the secondary center, making choices that differ from the natural determinism of the inner self.

A more contemporary example of ego will power is connected to all the genders that have suddenly appeared. This is based on social conditioning for and by the ego; super ego of culture. The inner self does not make all these distinctions. Our ego sort of needs a social road map and social cataloging list to keep this game all straight; social protocol. PC sort of beats this into you via forced social reinforcement compliance, allowing will power in some so they can diverge from the inner self and natural instinct.

The ego secondary center evolved with civilization and the appearance of modern human languages about 10,000 year ago. It was metastable at first, but finally consolidated when written language appeared; Adam, about 6000 years ago. Written language allows reinforcement of a moment in time, which would natural change or atrophy, via the natural brain and inner self. The inner self naturally forward integrates the present data and experience into long term natural trends; firmware seeds, allowing one to obtain creative and spontaneous wisdom. Written language, by creating an external means to reinforce the past, even for generations, allows one to diverge from this natural forward integration. This allowed will power to appear.
 

Ponder This

Well-Known Member
What -- if it exists in the first place -- is the fundamental (i.e. ontological) nature of the will?

Is it....

(1) some physical thing?​

(2) Or is it some metaphysical thing?
If the will is free, then doesn't that mean the will must be metaphysical in nature?
And it the will is determined, does not that mean the will is most likely physical in nature?

Comments? Questions?

Not necessarily, as the will is "free" if it is free from coercion.
Free will may include doing things which are natural to you as well as things which are not natural to you.
The will may have both physical and metaphysical counterparts.
For example, the faculty for making and initiating decisions is often thought to reside within the brain, which is a physical thing. But, philosophically, it doesn't matter if the will resides within the "brain" or within the "body" of a person. The "brain" is just an attempt to narrow down more specifically where a person's faculty for making and initiating decisions resides.
There's a clear argument for the physical nature of the will in that if you kill someone his body ceases to function. But it is not exactly cessation of function that means the removal of will, because removal of the capacity to act could simply be the removal of "free" will. As someone who is imprisoned is not free to act. Then again, someone who is sleeping is not necessarily under coercion either.
So this is where philosophers can start to really get into the metaphysical nature of the will (which does not mean there is not physical element to the will).

So it might not make sense to ask the question in an Exclusive Or sense. Just because something is physical does not mean it is not metaphysical as well.
 

EtuMalku

Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
What -- if it exists in the first place -- is the fundamental (i.e. ontological) nature of the will?

Is it....

(1) some physical thing?​

(2) Or is it some metaphysical thing?
If the will is free, then doesn't that mean the will must be metaphysical in nature?
And it the will is determined, does not that mean the will is most likely physical in nature?

Comments? Questions?
Our Will is the cognitive potential of our mind to select and act upon a desire.
It is most likely that we do not have Free Will, rather our decisions are influenced by our (mis)understanding of things.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
What -- if it exists in the first place -- is the fundamental (i.e. ontological) nature of the will?

Is it....

(1) some physical thing?​

(2) Or is it some metaphysical thing?
If the will is free, then doesn't that mean the will must be metaphysical in nature?
And it the will is determined, does not that mean the will is most likely physical in nature?

Comments? Questions?
Will is (ontologically) a faculty of the mind, so neither of those things. Our mental faculties are (mostly metaphorical) folk expressions, set to lend description to things that "go on in our head."
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
will, as with consciousness itself, may be an emergent property of the complex, complicated, and chaotic system within which we function...

Perhaps the will is free only in that it can be used to make choices between limited alternatives that are the result of prior choices...
 

j1i

Smiling is charity without giving money
What -- if it exists in the first place -- is the fundamental (i.e. ontological) nature of the will?

Is it....

(1) some physical thing?​

(2) Or is it some metaphysical thing?
If the will is free, then doesn't that mean the will must be metaphysical in nature?
And it the will is determined, does not that mean the will is most likely physical in nature?

Comments? Questions?


The will to stay dependent on tracking the source of your exit
We came out by the will of the Creator and for reason
God is the first without beginning and the last without end
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
The will to stay dependent on tracking the source of your exit
We came out by the will of the Creator and for reason
God is the first without beginning and the last without end
Whaaaa? How does this, in the least, address Sunstone's questions?

.
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
If one truly has free will, would it really matter whether it was fundamentally physical or metaphysical?

A good point. It might matter to a scientist, but for the individual experiencing it, the question may be irrelevant except as a philosophical matter.
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
You are free to will what you will, but not to do as pleases if what pleases you is mayhem and murder.

The nature of will is to be able to exert your intentions and cause actions to result. Intellect is to inform the will not to make dumb decisions, and instead make wise decisions.

The will is controlled by your understandings and loves of desires. The freedom of your will depends on the nature of your desires that you fall for. Some love, some hate, some are ambivalent. Some are given over to lust, others are those that are taken by justice and freedom.

It is possible to act against one's desires. The will has that freedom, if you are not the type of person who is slave to wanton desires.

The will is free though the body is slave to the circumstances of necessity in nature.

Freedom of will is dependent on what spirit the individual falls for. Lust vs. love!
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
What -- if it exists in the first place -- is the fundamental (i.e. ontological) nature of the will?

Is it....

(1) some physical thing?​

(2) Or is it some metaphysical thing?
If the will is free, then doesn't that mean the will must be metaphysical in nature?
And it the will is determined, does not that mean the will is most likely physical in nature?

Comments? Questions?

Since the will would be considered decision making then it is a physical process and the anterior cingulate cortex (ACC), ventral striatum, dorsal striatum, basal ganglia along with the transmitter dopamine play a critical role in what people perceive as the will.

Global dopamine depletion including within the nucleus accumbens does not impair an animal or person from “liking something” but does impair decision making / performance to obtain what is liked including higher cost behaviors to reach a goal. Considerable evidence points to midbrain dopamine depletion discouraging animals from choosing effortful actions while the interplay between the anterior cingulate cortex and the basal ganglion with dopaminergic pathways in enables animals, including humans, to choose and execute effortful action including decision making even when it comes at a cost. Thus subcortical tissue plays as much of a role as the cognitive in decision making/will.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
A good point. It might matter to a scientist, but for the individual experiencing it, the question may be irrelevant except as a philosophical matter.
I you are emotionally invested in it one way or the other, aren't you limiting it? I like being able to manipulate (physical) determinism via technology to get desired results, as well as being able to plug into the creative process as needed to search for clues/solutions. I wouldn't want to hobble either one.
abhaya.jpg
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
I you are emotionally invested in it one way or the other, aren't you limiting it? I like being able to manipulate (physical) determinism via technology to get desired results, as well as being able to plug into the creative process as needed to search for clues/solutions. I wouldn't want to hobble either one.
View attachment 33500

Once you make a goal to manipulate determinism, you're already being determined. ;-)
 
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