Seal of the Prophets - Does it mean Muhammad is the final Prophet?

InvestigateTruth said:

That is not always how Arabic works.

Khatm= to end.
Khaatem= the one who ends. Khatem ul nabiiyin = the one who ends prophets.
Khaatam= this was ornament on rings, which was also used to stamp a document.
The title of Muhammad in the Quran is Khaatam ul nabiiyin, not Khaatem ul nabiiyin.
If you know farsi, when the word Khaatam entered in Persia, it was used in such words: Khaatamkaari.

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Even in Arabic the following phrases are common:

Khatam ush-Shu'ara' or 'Khatam ul-Mufassireen' .
It never means that there will be no poet afterwards or nobody will understand/interpret afterwards. It means, taking the human element, they have relatively high stature and people will tow their line in the respective field.
The title Khaatam-un-Nabiyyeen has been bestowed on Muhammad by the All-Knowing Allah, so it would mean that:

• Muhammad is the highest in stature/status among all the Prophets/Messengers
• All the Prophets/Messengers past/present/future have/had the stamp of Muhammad's character, so that their truthfulness could be known easily to recognize them where-ever they appeared in the world.
• With the completion of truthful Religion on Muhammad no new religion could come.
• The future Messiah/Imam-Mahdi/Jesus-in-Second-Coming/Prophet/Messenger will bring no new religion, no new Law, no new Sunnah; he will booster/revive the teachings of Quran and Sunnah of Muhammad and such person will not come from the skies but will be born in Ummah of Muhammad.

Right, please?

Regards
____________
#214
A Misconception Removed | Islam Ahmadiyya by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad
#213 Irrespective of the meaning of the title Seal of Prophets given to Muhammad by G-d, Bahaullah never claimed in his core book "Kitab-i-Iqan" or "The Book of Certitude":
~that Bahaullah was appointed a Messenger/Prophet by G-d in clear and unequivocal terms.
~Bahaullah did not claim that he had received any Word of Revelation from G-d in clear and unequivocal terms.
If yes, then please quote from "Kitab-i-Iqan" or "The Book of Certitude" in this connection.
If the followers of Bahaism Religion think that Bahaullah was a prophet/messenger appointed by G-d as per Quran, then it is their own incorrect thinking, it has got nothing to do with Bahaullah being a Prophet/Messenger as per Quran. Right, please?

Link said:

I have the Arabic book version, I read it, it uses the same word. Then says "so there is no Prophet after him". So when it uses the same word (khatama), then it's an allusion to the verse!

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Right, but i don't think we can make that conclusion.
There is a general misunderstanding especially among persians. They think they know the meaning of a word based on what appears to be its root. But it doesnt always work like that,

Here is an example:
علم = to know, knowledge
عالم (aalem)= one who knows
عالم(aalam) = world

You see? Even it may appear that aalam is from the root elm, it has a totally different meaning.
Khaatam is the same way.
I know, the hadithes which says, Muhaammad is the seal of prophets, and there is no prophet after Him. But cannot conclude from that, khatam means last. As we saw in the Hadith from Imam Ali, the reason Muhammad is called Khaatam un nabiiyin is because all prophets were given permission of prophecy by receiving Khatam (confirmation) from Muhammad. I am not saying Muhammad did not say that there is no prophet after Him. He did say that, but that is different from the meaning of Khaatam in Nabiyiin.

Bro, the hadith is clear, it's about the word and interprets as meaning there is no Prophet after Mohammad.

paarsurrey said:

Even in Arabic the following phrases are common:

Khatam ush-Shu'ara' or 'Khatam ul-Mufassireen' .
It never means that there will be no poet afterwards or nobody will understand/interpret afterwards. It means, taking the human element, they have relatively high stature and people will tow their line in the respective field.
The title Khaatam-un-Nabiyyeen has been bestowed on Muhammad by the All-Knowing Allah, so it would mean that:

• Muhammad is the highest in stature/status among all the Prophets/Messengers
• All the Prophets/Messengers past/present/future have/had the stamp of Muhammad's character, so that their truthfulness could be known easily to recognize them where-ever they appeared in the world.

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Correct.

• With the completion of truthful Religion on Muhammad no new religion could come.

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Allah always completed His religion before Muhammad also. Allah never left any people with an incomplete religion.

• future Messiah/Imam-Mahdi/Jesus-in-Second-Coming/Prophet/Messenger will bring no new religion, no new Law, no new Sunnah; he will booster/revive the teachings of Quran and Sunnah of Muhammad and such person will not come from the skies but will be born in Ummah of Muhammad.

Right, please?

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Why not?

wizanda said:

Walking away from being real in conversations, after being the one who is arguing a point, isn't being respectful...

There were questions to you, and you've done this a few times now of just saying I'm going to ignore our conversation.

Actually it is crucial to the topic, as it is about if the Quran said Muhammad is the 'seal' or 'last' prophet...

If there is an Imam Mahdi still to come, by definition these have to be a prophet, as they need to understand prophetic texts, know Yeshua is coming after, etc.

If Muhammad is the Imam Mahdi it is possible to then say there are no more prophets, and only the Messiah comes next.

Thus understanding the Anti-Christ's teachings in the texts, what this means, and where it is specified, is crucial to understanding all contexts.

In my opinion.

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"If there is an Imam Mahdi still to come, by definition these have to be a prophet"

Your argument is correct. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad being the Promised Messiah and Imam Mahdi has rightly claimed to be a prophet/messenger of G-d within the Umma of Islam but he has brought no new Law Book, he and his followers follow the Teachings of Quran and act on the Sunnah of Muhammad. Quran/Islam is a complete Law-Book, it needs no new teachings and Muhammad demonstrated that his acts were most practical, so Muhammad's Sunnah is to be followed. No new Religion is therefore needed. Right, please?

Regards
_______________
"Thus, the status of the Holy Prophet (sa) as Khatamun Nabiyyin is by no means in peril due to my Prophethood, since the Zill is never independent of the original. Since I am Muhammad (sa) by way of Zill, therefore, the Seal of Khatamun Nabiyyin remains intact, and the Prophethood of Muhammad (sa) remains confined to Muhammad (sa) . This means that in all events it is Muhammad (sa) who remains the Prophet and no one else."
https://www.alislam.org/book/a-misconception-removed/ page 12 (22 of 36) by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1908

Link said:

Bro, the hadith is clear, it's about the word and interprets as meaning there is no Prophet after Mohammad.

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there are only two reasons why Muhammad said there is no prophet after Him, or He is like the last brick of a building.
In one sense, He was speaking about immediate successorship. His successors will not be prophets, but will be Imams. In another sense, He was speaking of being the last prophet of the first creation, which had begun from Adam. He said, it is like a building, started from Adam and ended with Muhammad. This Hadith has a quranic basis. In fact all true hadithes must have a quranic basis. In the Quran, it refers to it as the first creation. But then it also promises the later creation. This later creation, is an allusion to Mahdi, who will start filling the earth with justice, thus, creating a new human civilization. Muhammad was the last prophet of the first creation. Mahdi is the first prophet of the new creation.

Or can literally mean there is no Prophet after him, the hadith also says:

Thus, there will never come other heavenly books.

So meaning of Khatam is therefore "no more Prophets after Mohammad" and the meaning of that is "there will never come other heavenly books". And how did Allah (swt) ensure no need of revelations, the hadith continues:

In it (your book) He has placed clarifications for all things, such as your creation and the creation of the heavens and the earth. Therein is the news of the beings before you, the laws that help settle your disputes and the news of the beings that come into being after you, the news of the issues of Paradise and Fire and that to which you proceed."


So he shows one reason why revelations can be sealed is because Quran contains how to settle all disputes during that time and AFTER forever... So this revelation was not meant just for a certain time but for all times.

Link said:

Or can literally mean there is no Prophet after him, the hadith also says:

Thus, there will never come other heavenly books.

So meaning of Khatam is therefore "no more Prophets after Mohammad" and the meaning of that is "there will never come other heavenly books". And how did Allah (swt) ensure no need of revelations, the hadith continues:

In it (your book) He has placed clarifications for all things, such as your creation and the creation of the heavens and the earth. Therein is the news of the beings before you, the laws that help settle your disputes and the news of the beings that come into being after you, the news of the issues of Paradise and Fire and that to which you proceed."


So he shows one reason why revelations can be sealed is because Quran contains how to settle all disputes during that time and AFTER forever... So this revelation was not meant just for a certain time but for all times.

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There are verses in Quran which says, Quranic laws are only good to an appointed time, which will come 1000 years after. And there are many hadithes which states the Qaim comes with a new Book. So, what are we going to do with these?

adrian009 said:

That's great you speak Arabic. I don't and so rely on the English translations of which I include several:

Sahih International: Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and last of the prophets. And ever is Allah , of all things, Knowing.

Pickthall: Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets; and Allah is ever Aware of all things.

Yusuf Ali: Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things.

Shakir: Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the Last of the prophets; and Allah is cognizant of all things.

Muhammad Sarwar: Muhammad is not the father of any of your males. He is the Messenger of God and the last Prophet. God has the knowledge of all things.

Mohsin Khan: Muhammad (SAW) is not the father of any man among you, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the last (end) of the Prophets. And Allah is Ever AllAware of everything.

Arberry: Muhammad is not the father of any one of your men, but the Messenger of God, and the Seal of the Prophets; God has knowledge of everything.

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

Of course there is not a single English translation that says Muhammad is the final Prophet for all time. In plain English 'Seal of the Prophets' does not mean Muhammad is the final Prophet for all time. So it comes down to the Arabic and meanings of words that are not captured well with translation into another language.

As you speak Arabic then you may appreciate the use of the words Rasool and Nabi in regards the Quran generally and specifically verse 33:40. The reference to these two Arabic words appears highly relevant and their juxtaposition crucial not just to each other but to the phrase "I am not the father of mankind". One analysis considering Sura 33 as a whole could be in regards to Muhammad being sonless and how his marriage to Zaynab is perceived. However, I believe the phrase is an allusion to the Prophet Adam who was the Father of all mankind. So when Muhammad speaks of being the seal of the Prophets, He speaks of being the last of the lineage of Prophets (Nabi) from Adam to Himself. That makes sense historically because there have been no more Prophets of that lineage. However He does not claim to be the seal of the Messengers or Rasools.

So Muhammad being the seal of the Prophets clearly alludes to a lineage of Prophets from Adam to Muhammad. Baha’is call this the Adamic cycle which we believe ended with the advent of the Madhi (the Bab) during 1844. Baha'u'llah in HIs work the Kitab-i-Iqan alludes to with the phrase 'seal of the Prophets' and how the phrase is applicable to other Messengers/Rasool. This concept is clearly supported by Christian scripture. For example in the Book of Revelation 22:13 we have reference to Christ being the ‘Alpha and the Omega’, or the first and last letters of the Greek Alphabet. In that sense Christ is also the beginning and end and the seal of the Prophets as with Muhammad.

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Adrian, Buddy, you seem you be trying to make something out of nothing. You are trying so hard to split hairs however, with all due respect, you neither have the hair nor do have the tools to even think about this kind of job. Allow me to explain and let’s look at the word that seems to be “stressing” you out, the word Khatam which in Arabic is pronounced as Kahtim.

The word Khatim has many translations depending on the context and some are, ring, seal, end, final, over, to beat, to win, to defeat or even to stamp. And many others, again, all depending on context. In the end, no matter the context, they all me “finished” or “no more”. For example, when you seal a letter shut in Arabic the word Khatam is used, when you finish a game or project the word In-Khatam can be used, when someone has finished reading or memorizing the Quran the word Khatam Is used the title of Khatim Al Quran is given to someone who has memorized the Quran. A ring or ring shape is a Khatim in Arabic. If you take all the different contexts I have used the root word of Khatim with, you notice they all end up meaning “final”, “last”, “no more”, and “the end”. You did say something I agree with and that’s “not captured well with translation into another language.“. Also, you seemed to either intentionally or un-intentionally left out all the other texts that do explain and plainly explain that Muhammed is the last and FINAL messenger and Prophet of Islam.

You also said “Of course there is not a single English translation that says Muhammad is the final Prophet for all time.” Maybe if you are looking at that 1 single verse there may not be, however, as I mentioned before there are many, many, many, many other places you can see where that is clearly said and explained. Also, think about this, if I said “Adrian, this is my final reply to this thread” what would be understood by you? Would you take it as he will come back later and reply or will you understand is that his last and final reply to this thread?

InvestigateTruth said:

there are only two reasons why Muhammad said there is no prophet after Him, or He is like the last brick of a building.
In one sense, He was speaking about immediate successorship. His successors will not be prophets, but will be Imams. In another sense, He was speaking of being the last prophet of the first creation, which had begun from Adam. He said, it is like a building, started from Adam and ended with Muhammad. This Hadith has a quranic basis. In fact all true hadithes must have a quranic basis. In the Quran, it refers to it as the first creation. But then it also promises the later creation. This later creation, is an allusion to Mahdi, who will start filling the earth with justice, thus, creating a new human civilization. Muhammad was the last prophet of the first creation. Mahdi is the first prophet of the new creation.

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"He was speaking about immediate successorship. His successors will not be prophets,"

This is one aspect, and it is correct.

Regards

paarsurrey said:

"He was speaking about immediate successorship. His successors will not be prophets,"

This is one aspect, and it is correct.

Regards

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Where does he speak of "immediate successorship"?

InvestigateTruth said:

There are verses in Quran which says, Quranic laws are only good to an appointed time, which will come 1000 years after. And there are many hadithes which states the Qaim comes with a new Book. So, what are we going to do with these?

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What are verses?

Limo said:

By the way, not only Bahaa, Bab, and Ahmaya allegated prophecy after Prophet Mohamed Peace and prayers up on him but also many people and sects.

The coming between Bahaa, Bab, and Ahmady is that all are non Arabs.

The word Khatem Alnabeen in Arabic has no meaning in Arabic language other than LAST, COMOLETED, FINAL

There are many hadeethes that Prophet Said clearly "no prophecies after me"

So no base for Bahaa, Bab, and Ahmady in Islam.

We don't consoder all these sects Moslems, i think they're also don't like to be called Moslems.
Regards

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"Ahmady in Islam"
"i think they're also don't like to be called Moslems."

We Ahmadiyya peaceful Muslims always call ourselves Muslims. Please get corrected.

Regards

firedragon said:

Where does he speak of "immediate successorship"?

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Did anyone of them claim to be as such, please?

Regards

Augustus said:

The term seal, as regards prophecy, has been used in Jewish, Christian and Manichaean traditions as meaning 'confirming' the validity of that which had been brought by earlier prophets (and the Arabic term used is imported from Aramaic, and exists as a hapax in the Quran).

There is some evidence of some early Muslims interpreting it in this manner, although the consensus on 'last' emerged pretty rapidly.

As with many such issues from this period, there is enough ambiguity to make a reasonable case for either (or both), although the context to the phrase does seem to lean towards 'last'.

You might be interested in these:

“The Seal of the Prophets and the Finality of Prophecy,”

Guy G. Stroumsa, “Seal of the Prophets: The Nature of a Manichaean Metaphor,” Jerusalem Studies in Arabic and Islam 7 (1986), 61-74

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"The term seal, as regards prophecy, has been used in Jewish, Christian and Manichaean traditions as meaning 'confirming' the validity of that which had been brought by earlier prophets"

One is right here, one aspect of Khaatam-un-Nabiyyeen is this also. The Seal of Muhammad authenticates and confirms all the truthful prophets/messengers of G-d in whatever land and people of the world they might have appeared. Denial of any one of them amounts to denying all of the prophets/messengers of G-d as per Quran.
This also confirms that no truthful prophets/messengers of G-d could come outside the pale of Islam after Muhammad. Jesus-in-Second Coming/the Promised Messiah of Islam/Imam Mahdi, therefore, have to be a Muslim and a follower of Muhammad.Right, please?

Regards

paarsurrey said:

Did anyone of them claim to be as such, please?

Regards

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This is what you said, and I asked you where its said.Your answer is irrelevant in my eyes..

"He was speaking about immediate successorship. His successors will not be prophets,"

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adrian009 said:

Khatam an-Nabiyyin, usually translated as Seal of the Prophets, is a title used in the Quran to designate the Prophet Muhammad. Among Muslims, it is generally regarded to mean that Muhammad was the last of the prophets sent by God.

The title khatam an-nabiyyin or khatim an-nabiyyin, is applied to Muhammad in verse 33:40 of the Qur'an. The popular Yusaf Ali translation reads,

Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things.
— The Qur'an – Chapter 33 Verse 40

Khatam an-Nabiyyin - Wikipedia

This is commonly understood that Muhammad is the final Prophet for all time despite eschatological beliefs in regards a future Madhi or Qa'im.

Mahdi - Wikipedia

One consequence of understanding Muhammad as being the final prophet, is that other religions such as the Baha'i Faith believe there can be prophets after Muhammad. Baha'is consider the forerunner of the Baha'i faith, the Bab and the founder of the Baha'i faith, Baha'u'llah to be Prophets who have a similar station. Many Muslims of course strongly disagree and will sometimes consider the Baha'i Faith an apostate religion. This has led to persecution of Baha'is in severalof Islamic countries including Iran.

Báb - Wikipedia

Bahá'u'lláh - Wikipedia

What I would like discussed in this thread is to hear from Muslims as to why this single verse in the Quran has come to be understood as Muhammad being the final Prophet of all time. It would also be useful for those who believe in Muhmmad but also a Prophet after Muhammad (eg Baha'is and Ahmadiyyas), why this verse doesn't mean the final Prophet for all time.

Bahá'í Faith - Wikipedia

Ahmadiyya - Wikipedia

If it doesn't mean Muhammad was the final Prophet for all time as believed by Muslims, what does it mean?

NB - Anyone who has something constructive to contribute is also welcome to post.

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I have no religion

but under this religious debate section......I would rebuttal

ANYONE who speaks of God and heaven
plays the prophet

and will be dealt with

yeah.....I understand what I have said
and I cannot stand before God and heaven and plead ignorance

firedragon said:

What are verses?

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"The Day that some of the Signs of your Lord do come, no good will it do to a person to believe then, if he believed not before, nor earned good through his Faith." (6:158). It is recorded in Bihar, that Imam Ali and Imam Sadiq said this verse denotes the advent of the awaited Qaim from us.



In another words, according to that verse, after Rise of Qaim, if someone had not believed in Quran before, but begins to believe in Quran after rise of Qaim, His belief will not do any good anymore, because, at that time, believing in Qaim, and His New Book will Profit him.

The Quranic evidence of abrogation of Quranic Laws is in surrah Al-Hajj:

“Indeed, those who reverence the Rites decreed by GOD demonstrate the righteousness of their hearts. In them are benefits to an Appointed Time, then their place is to the ancient House” 22:33


Therefore according to the verse, the Quranic Rites are beneficial until their appointed time, then after that, Religious Laws are Referred to the Ancient House, which according to Recorded Traditions, is in Heaven.
The term Ancient House in Islamic traditions is described as a heavenly Kabba, a place from where Quran was revealed to mankind. Thus, according to the above verse, after a certain time, these Quranic Laws go up again to the ancient house (meaning God will take then back, as no benefit in them anymore).


, and the time of ascension of the Quranic ordinances is in the 32nd Surrah:

“He directeth the ordinance from the heaven unto the earth; then it ascendeth unto Him in a Day, whereof the measure is a thousand years of that ye reckon.” 32:5



And the evidence of abrogation of Quran and coming of a new Book are in these Traditions recorded in Bihar and Al-Kafi:

Imam Ja’far Sadiq (a.s.) said: “When the Qaim rises, he will come with a new commandment from Allah, just as the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.s.) summoned men to a new set of commandments at the beginning of Islam.”



And the Quranic evidence that Qaim comes with a Book of God is in Surrah Al-Isra, verse 71:

“On the Day when We will summon all men by their Imam; and he whose Book is given in his right hand shall read it, nor shall they be wronged a straw.” 17:71


And in Al-kafi, ‘Abdallah ibn Sinan narrated, "I asked abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) about the meaning of , ‘On the Day when We will summon all men by their Imam . . ." (17:71) The Imam (a.s.) said, "It refers to the Imam who is with them and he is Qa’im of the people of that time."


In Al-kafi it is narrated that Imam MuhammadBaqir (a.s.) said: “... they will disagree in the Book that will be with the Qaim, who will bring it to them, so much so that a large number of people will deny him.”

(Meaning people do not agree to accept the new Book)!!.


And in Bihar in another Hadith, Imam said, “Qaim rises with a new Cause, a new Book, new Judgement which is sever on Arabs.”

The Quranic evidence of the Book being severe on Arabs is in Surrah AlQamar:

"The Day the caller calls to an undesirable event" 56:6
It is recorded this verse is regarding, Imam Mahdi, who calls people to that which they dislike and deny.

InvestigateTruth said:

“Indeed, those who reverence the Rites decreed by GOD demonstrate the righteousness of their hearts. In them are benefits to an Appointed Time, then their place is to the ancient House” 22:33

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It doesn't say Quranic rites.

You know what Shaira means. Its a significant symbol. A decree. Any decree Allah. It does not say Quran.

Anyway brother, thanks for the verses responding to my request. I do not wish to knock on faiths.

Salaam.

firedragon said:

It doesn't say Quranic rites.

You know what Shaira means. Its a significant symbol. A decree. Any decree Allah. It does not say Quran.

Anyway brother, thanks for the verses responding to my request. I do not wish to knock on faiths.

Salaam.

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We can know what Shaairs are from other verses of Quran, and Hadithes. It includes obligatory prayer, Hajj and other Rites according to Hadithes.
The other verse is talking about Quran, beCause if we read from a few verses before it, it is talking about believing in the Quran.