You're a Christian, that's what you believe. I never said I turn my whole life to science, so you misunderstood that part. What I meant to imply was that my faith doesn't contradict science (as we know it) . Sorry about that.
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The Second Coming
- Thread starter Dawnofhope
- Start date
You're a Christian, that's what you believe. I never said I turn my whole life to science, so you misunderstood that part. What I meant to imply was that my faith doesn't contradict science (as we know it) . Sorry about that.
shmogie
Well-Known Member
Really ? Truly an over generalization and an error.
The Seventh Day Adventist Church, which has been preaching the return of Christ as a fundamental linchpin of their theology since the 1860´s is HUGE on higher learning. It has itś own chain of fully accredited colleges and universities across the nation and the world.
Itś rate of college graduates per capita is extremely high as a demographic. Just as Seventh Day Adventists are the longest living people in the country.
Their University research in the health sciences is second to none, and their school of medicine at Loma Linda University, founded in 1906, has produced many nationally known physicians. One that I knew personally, the late Dr. Leonard Bailey, was a pioneer in natal and prenatal heart surgery, and was considered the authority in this field.
No, this apocalyptic cult does not discourage higher education. absolutely just the opposite.
Heyo
Veteran Member
Thanks for the info. I didn't know anything about the Adventists. And I concede that an apocalyptic world view doesn't always lead to fatalism. After all, the RCC has been apocalyptic during most of its lifetime and created organisations and buildings that have lasted for a longer time than most things built today will last.
We have a lot of thunderstorms here. Can you propose a better epistemology, so that we do not miss Him?
If anyone who claims to have seen Jesus, or to be Jesus, is lying, then, by logical necessity, we should not believe what we see. Or report what we see, without lying about it.
If a lightning comes to me and say: hej, I am Jesus. Then I should treat Him like any other liar, right?
Ciao
- viole
stvdv
Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
IMHO (for all the below): don't feel offended. This is my opinion. I never heard others say it this way, but this makes sense to me.
Most seemingly difficult to solve problems can be solved easily and quickly, the moment you dare look out of the box.
Here the box is: the Bible (written by humans, so a box created by humans ... better be warned ... knowing human's devious ways)
We all know that certain humans will do anything to get: a) Control/Power + b) Money
We all know that the Vatican is very rich and have always been very powerful
We all know that it's best to have the majority under your control, hence evangelizing duty
So: It seems the above 3 are quite related
We all know that fear induced in others (e.g. torture), is the best motivator to get them to do what you want (Hell+Devil did the trick for 2000 years)
We all know that fear alone would not work to get the money flow your way (eternal salvation instead of eternal burning in hell became a hit)
We all know that "hope" and "perfect father/leader" all people wanted always (the second coming fulfilled this job)
So: It seems the above 3 were perfectly blended into quite "some business plan" I would say
The second coming is the greatest hoax of all times. A genius "billion dollar Master Plan" billions blindly believe since 2000 years
Before dismissing this as just stvdv's fantasy, consider this:
They gave them all kind of lies/fears, so that they became to dull to use their own common sense and "normal reasoning"
1) They are very beneficial for the ones in charge. Obvious they are very harmful for the sheep blindly following (fear is not healthy + lost $$$)
2) I totally don't take the concept seriously ... only in the way I described "the perfect business plan". I would be serious to take it down.
3) Having been fooled for 2000 years ('Carrot and stick' trick worked already 2000 years. Is this carrot not spoiled after 2000 years???)
Most seemingly difficult to solve problems can be solved easily and quickly, the moment you dare look out of the box.
Here the box is: the Bible (written by humans, so a box created by humans ... better be warned ... knowing human's devious ways)
We all know that certain humans will do anything to get: a) Control/Power + b) Money
We all know that the Vatican is very rich and have always been very powerful
We all know that it's best to have the majority under your control, hence evangelizing duty
So: It seems the above 3 are quite related
We all know that fear induced in others (e.g. torture), is the best motivator to get them to do what you want (Hell+Devil did the trick for 2000 years)
We all know that fear alone would not work to get the money flow your way (eternal salvation instead of eternal burning in hell became a hit)
We all know that "hope" and "perfect father/leader" all people wanted always (the second coming fulfilled this job)
So: It seems the above 3 were perfectly blended into quite "some business plan" I would say
The second coming is the greatest hoax of all times. A genius "billion dollar Master Plan" billions blindly believe since 2000 years
Before dismissing this as just stvdv's fantasy, consider this:
To me this is the biggest proof that all of this is 1 big fallacy imposed by The Church (Elite) on their followers
They gave them all kind of lies/fears, so that they became to dull to use their own common sense and "normal reasoning"
And what about 2000 years living in fear of Hell and Devil fairy tale. Still not proven, but still billions believe in it, and suffer from it.
My answers to your 3 questions (using my theory I wrote above):
1) They are very beneficial for the ones in charge. Obvious they are very harmful for the sheep blindly following (fear is not healthy + lost $$$)
2) I totally don't take the concept seriously ... only in the way I described "the perfect business plan". I would be serious to take it down.
3) Having been fooled for 2000 years ('Carrot and stick' trick worked already 2000 years. Is this carrot not spoiled after 2000 years???)
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sooda
Veteran Member
Scofield | Biblical Eschatology Blog
https://biblicaleschatology.org/tag/scofield
According to Craig, the rapture became a popular theory about the End Times due to the influence of the Scofield Reference Bible, which was published in the early 20th century and promulgated John Darby’s mid-18th century’s views on the rapture.
shmogie
Well-Known Member
Of course it was predicted before it happened that the Church would swallow giant errors, and be seriously flawed as to actually following the tenants of Christianity, many believe, as do I, that the Roman Catholic Church is the fulfillment of that warning. many believe that the Roman Catholic Church is the beast spoken of in the book of Revelation.
If one looks at the Apostolic church in the NT, whose doctrines and actions were pure Christianity, and therefore what any Church should be, your objections totally evaporate.
Hope is not a carrot or a stick. Any true Christian would like to be alive when Christ returns, but if you die before, it is no big deal, you are OK either way,
It is something that will occur some time in the future, maybe tomorrow, maybe in 1,000 years, I don worry about it. I don´t need to.
sooda
Veteran Member
Oh dear no... The beast was a succession of Roman emperors long before there was a Pope or Catholic church. You have some bad training.
shmogie
Well-Known Member
Hold the personal comments, they aren´t commendable.
You have an interpretation based on opinions, nothing more. Millions upon millions do not accept your opinion.
Reread my post carefully, did I say I believed Catholic Church, or the Pope to be the beast of Revelation ?
You were so eager to jump in and demean me and my theological training, you didn´t read what I posted.
Of course, you and I will almost always be at odds. You do not believe the Bible is inspired or trustworthy, I do. You contend you are a christian, I certainly cannot comment on that.
William Miller was very very close and in reality the SDA Church foundation is the year of its greatest disappointment, that being 1844.
In contrast many see that year as being the dawn of the Light of new world. The year Christ did indeed return.
Like a theif in the night, comes to mind.
Mark 12:9 is applicable.
Regards Tony
shmogie
Well-Known Member
Yes, the SDA Church came out of the Millerite movement.
A thief in the night can be a great never expected surprise, that is the point, not a stealthy return of Christ.
The return of Christ will be as bright as the sun and totally visible. Christ was so clear on this that to say otherwise makes him out to be a liar.
I would think that calling Christ a liar would be a less than good thing to do.
shmogie
Well-Known Member
What twisted logic ! In Las Vegas I can show you a guy who saws women in half, and makes them float in the air defying gravity.
You will see it, will you believe it ?
shmogie
Well-Known Member
As bright as, does not mean the sun is the subject of the sentence.
shmogie
Well-Known Member
Craig is wrong. The Seventh Day Adventists teach what can only be called the rapture, though they don´t use that term. They began teaching this in the 1850-1860 years.
Yes, in the past some even claim to have seen people resurrecting. Suckers.
Ciao
- viole
sooda
Veteran Member
Martin Luther claimed the Church and the Pope was the beast for obvious reasons.. but Revelation makes it perfectly clear that the Beast is Nero followed by Domintian who both persecuted the new Christians. Israel is called the harlot and/or the Whore of Babylon. The "mark of the beast" is the engraved head of Caesar or Roman coin.
Millions of Christians have been lead astray by Scofield since the 1930s.. His futurist notions appealed to the ignorant and suffering people of the Dust Bowl and the Great Depression..
Later it was given a boost by the Dallas Theological Seminary (founded by Scofield) and the Moody Institute who turned out thousands of preacher like Billy Graham.. it finally got another boost by Hal Lindsey, Tim Lahay, Falwell, Pat Robertson..
It was a political strategy cooked up by a convicted felon (Cyrus Scofield) and Samuel Untermyer to promote Christian Zionism.
It has turned Protestantism on its head. At least find out why you believe as you do.
Interesting topic.
It really depends how people are looking at it. I think the negative aspects of it are if people take it literally, as though some outside agency is going to come and act and take care of business, as it were, it keeps them from being a participant in the system in anyway that has meaningful impact to change the present situation. Rather than the Kingdom of God being an imminent, inward unfolding into an outwards world in which they participate in bringing that forth, it is viewed as being enacted by some external force. It removes the inward and upward thrust of spiritual life, of which they need to actively participate, and denies it to ourselves by imaging God's going to "do it" because we can't.
So the negative there is to not realize the active nature of spiritual life, forestalling it for "kingdom come", another time and place, beyond us. We don't grow spiritually, and the kingdom doesn't come.
On the positive side, if someone imagines the second coming, as a continuous coming into being though Spirit, "thy Kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth, as in heaven," places that right here on earth in the now. So it becomes a realization of a spiritual truth, rather than some future eschatological perfection to come. The perfect is coming, as we do "thy will on earth as in heaven". It is a metaphor for a spiritual truth. That leads one as a truth to a positive position to actually do good in the world. That to me is what being a Christian should be, rather than waiting for some future deliverer.
And with that voice, I would call myself speaking as a Christian, even though I don't care to identify myself with any one religion. It am speaking as I hear the ground Christian message, beyond all the theologies and dualistic beliefs.
One can take the concept seriously, without needing to take it literally.
How can we determine if Christ is legitimately being "returned"? By the authenticity and the fruits that they bear. Those will speak the truth of that person, and anyone else who claims to be Christ. I'm of the view that one can be Christ, at any time in our lives we are fully surrendered to God. "Thy will, not mine", when enacted we become Christ.
If someone as an individual claims to be THE returning messiah to the exclusion of all others? Then I'd say they think rather highly of themselves.
Yes, history does teach of the folly of looking here and there for the Kingdom of God when it is here among you, said Jesus to those looking for signs.
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Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
First of all, When Jesus Christ returns everyone will be in the spirit and not of flesh and blood.
If people are still of flesh and blood, then that Jesus Christ is the false Christ.
That is to come first.
whirlingmerc
Well-Known Member
1) For believers the 2nd coming should be an encouragement (but not escapism) Jesus is to be 'marveled at by those who believe' as it says in Thessalonians and there will be 'a marriage supper of the lamb' a wedding to end all weddings!!!
2) The real second coming will be unmistakeable and as lightning does from east to west. (I just don't see a 'secret return' view in scripture)
3) There are lessons to be learned about false prophesies. (there were many false dates of the return of Christ and best not to attempt it)