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Trump makes fatal and very flawed decision.

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Kurds are not formal allies unlike Turkey which is in NATO. There is no Kurdish nation-state, there is no treaty of alliance with the US. Sad for the Kurds but this is what happens when a group thinks they are anything but a proxy by ignoring reality. The Syrian Kurds security is via Assad not the USA unless you want the USA to overthrow Assad thus get into conflict with Russia. Toss in there are actually 3, or more, faction of Kurds; Syrian, Iraqi and Turkish. The latter are not allies what so ever.



The only reason Turkey is in NATO is due to location. Turkey was never a great ally but one of convenience due to Russia and the Black Sea. In my view Turkey should have been dumped years ago as the pretext is no longer valid. Turkey was never a bastion of stability given it has faced multiple military coups in it's history.



This was going to happen anyways unless Assad lost against one or more rebel groups or was overthrown by the USA. Syria has been an ally of Russia for decades.



This policy isn't isolationist as per troop deployment in KSA. Syria does not have oil. KSA does. Syria is a mess, KSA isn't. Beside it take little to redeploy the USAF which is the primary US military tool in Syria not ground troops. The Kurds are meat shields so the USAF can bomb ISIS. Considering ISIS had no air force or even a minor threat to USA air power the idea that withdrawal shows lack of strength is absurd. I am sure ISIS members when they were being bombed into the stone age were really thinking how weak the US is. The strength babble from Bolton is pure BS.



Bolton is a war hawk. He would have the US tied up in foreign civil wars and foreign wars that just waste money and blood for decades. The US hasn't been able to figure out how to nation build since West Germany nor are the populations in question interested.




The area has been a disaster for decades due to USA intervention policy. You should have figured this out by now or did nearly 20 years of Afghanistan and Iraq not clue you in.

There is a point which one accepts a loss and calls it quits. Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan are primary examples.
Oh, I should have figured that out by now. Thank you for the rebuke based upon superior knowledge.

Bolton is not a war hawk, your error. He understands the diplomacy of power, and the use of military force required. He was dead set against Obamas CIA intervention and overthrow of the government in Libya, now another leaking sore. If he were a
war hawk, he would have been overjoyed by this stupid blunder.
Just another inaccurate name the left pins on Republicans
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Giving Russia precedence in the middle east in Syria, and encouraging annexation (which will happen) of part of Syria, only puts a hostile, well equipped, stated enemy of Israel, closer to Israel. In fact, the Turkish army could wind up facing the Israeli army.

There was no formal treaty of alliance with the Kurds, but is that the only thing that defines an ally ? I sincerely don´t think so.

We have a different view of foreign policy, don´t play the ¨ you should have¨ " I am superior ¨baloney with me, you aren´t. You are just another guy with an opinion, there are 160 million of us.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Throwing Kurds under the bus without as much as some sort of public appeal for their safety will be (correctly IMO) perceived as the mark of a betrayer. Radicals everywhere will point that out as evidence that the USA is a dangerous ally to have and that everyone is better off favoring other alliances.

Difficult as the situation in Syria is, this was inexcusable.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Here's what I think is happening.
Putin wants regional control of the oil production in the mideast. He's forming a bloc with Iran, Syria, Turkey, and Iraq.
It will soon be more powerful than the USA bloc, with Saudi Arabia and Israel.

Trump is helping Putin gain control of the incredibly valuable strategic asset that is the gulf oil region. Whether is because he's dumb and easily led or because he'll benefit financially, that's what Trump is doing. And he's been promising this since he started running for president.

It's absolutely no surprise that Putin wanted a billionaire playboy for president, rather than the experienced old warhawk. Clinton wouldn't have been so willing to sell out USA interests.
Tom
Vent your spleen , itś good for you.

If you will recall, long before Russia had a foothold in the middle east, campaigning Trump said our troops should not be there, and he would pull them out.

I know you drink the Russian kool aid every day, and I come from the 60ś, so inject, ingest, swallow , sniff, free base smoke, absorb whatever you choose, if you dig it, do it more,

However, your hallucinations from drinking the kool aid cooked up and distributed by the democrat party doesn´t make them fact.

Your party told everyone for two and a half years that Mueller had the goods to prove the hallucinations true, he didn´t.

So keep on trippin, may all your trips be groovy.,

But please man, don´t try and say they are reality. Peace, dude
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
President Trump has announced the withdrawal of all US troops from Northern Syria and in consultation with the President of Turkey has green lighted a Turkish invasion of Syria.

This is a massive error in a number of ways.

The Kurds have been a staunch ally of the US in fighting ISIS and al qa eda, for their loyalty and help they will now be abandoned to the Turks, who will slaughter them. Once again showing the US abandons itś allies in regional wars.

Turkey, once a valued secular ally, has fallen under the dictatorship of a muslim idealogue, and is more and more becoming a radical Islamic state. Trump has now empowered them more fully, and their is no doubt that after their invasion, they will annex part of Syria. This will only further encourage the ideas of a pan Islamic caliphate and the return of the Ottoman empire.

This decision strengthens Russian ambitions in the area, Syria will cling to Russia as a counterbalance to Turkey, and will agree to whatever Russia demands. As Russia fills the vacuum left by the departure of the US. others in the area will be forced to make deals with them, to our disadvantage.

As I looked at Trump in 2016 I supported most of his domestic ideas, but was put off by his isolationist foreign
policy thoughts. I hoped that advisers would keep him on the rails in this area, and applauded John Bolton as one who would. In my view, contrary to his detractors, Bolton knows the world thoroughly, understands diplomacy from a position of strength, and doesn´t just throw his hands up and quit.

Throughout his Presidency, I have waited for the real clanger in Trumps foreign policy.

Boltons resignation was the first shoe to drop, I knew something really bad was very likely to come.

The second shoe has dropped, and as I feared, it is the harbinger of disaster.


How many troops are being withdrawn?
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Here's what I think is happening.
Putin wants regional control of the oil production in the mideast. He's forming a bloc with Iran, Syria, Turkey, and Iraq.
It will soon be more powerful than the USA bloc, with Saudi Arabia and Israel.

Trump is helping Putin gain control of the incredibly valuable strategic asset that is the gulf oil region. Whether is because he's dumb and easily led or because he'll benefit financially, that's what Trump is doing. And he's been promising this since he started running for president.

It's absolutely no surprise that Putin wanted a billionaire playboy for president, rather than the experienced old warhawk. Clinton wouldn't have been so willing to sell out USA interests.
Tom
Vent your spleen , itś good for you.

If you will recall, long before Russia had a foothold in the middle east, campaigning Trump said our troops should not be there, and he would pull them out.

I know you drink the Russian kool aid every day, and I come from the 60ś, so inject, ingest, swallow , sniff, free base smoke, absorb, whatever you choose, if you dig it, do it more,

However, your hallucinations from drinking the kool aid cooked up and distributed by the democrat party doesn´t make them fact.

Your party told everyone for two and a half years that Mueller had the goods to prove the hallucinations true, he didn´t.

So keep on trippin, may all your trips be groovy.,

But please man, don´t try and say they are reality. Peace, dude
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
How many troops are being withdrawn?
He says all, I think the number is less than 5,000, but they have been adequete to hold ground and keep the Turks from trying to obliterate the Kurds. The great fear has always been that great might would be employed if they were attacked by a nation, as opposed to rag tag insurgents.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Yea. You don't want ISiS making a comeback.

Colin Powell is right , our foreign policy is in shambles.
Powell is almost right. As I recall, when he was secretary of state, there was some pretty iffy foreign policy going on as well.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Trump has TWO trump towers in Turkey, He made this decision on the fly without consultation while he was on the phone with Erdogan. The WH is flipped out over it.
Yep, every one but Trump knows it is a bad mistake.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
your spleen , itś good for you.

If you will recall, long before Russia had a foothold in the middle east, campaigning Trump said our troops should not be there, and he would pull them out.
Russia had a foothold in the middle east long before Trump started.
That's why Obama was trying to make peace with the Iranian government. To stop Putin's increasing foothold in the most powerful country in the gulf oil region.
Iran has a large, educated, sophisticated population. Iran has oil wealth. Iran has very high military preparedness.
Iran is the most powerful country in the region, without a close second.

Republicans have been pushing Iran into an alliance with Russia for decades. From the Reagan/Bush administrations to Bush/Cheney to Trump/Pence, we've been doing this for decades. And now it's happening, along with Syria etc.
The Republicans are so busy taking care of the Republican party they've lost interest in the USA

I know you drink the Russian kool aid every day, and I come from the 60ś, so inject, ingest, swallow , sniff, free base smoke, absorb whatever you choose, if you dig it, do it more,

Vent your spleen , itś good for you.
However, your hallucinations from drinking the kool aid cooked up and distributed by the democrat party doesn´t make them fact.
Vent your spleen , itś good for you.
Your party told everyone for two and a half years that Mueller had the goods to prove the hallucinations true, he didn´t.
Vent your spleen , itś good for you.
So keep on trippin, may all your trips be groovy.,

But please man, don´t try and say they are reality. Peace, dude
Vent your spleen , itś good for you.
Tom
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Oh, I should have figured that out by now. Thank you for the rebuke based upon superior knowledge.

Bolton is not a war hawk, your error.

No he is a war hawk given his history and record.

He understands the diplomacy of power, and the use of military force required.

ISIS has no targets of value. The role of the military is done. There is zero reason to negotiate with ISIS. Syrian Kurds are Assad's problem. They can deal with him or openly declare they are a rebel faction.

He was dead set against Obamas CIA intervention and overthrow of the government in Libya, now another leaking sore. If he were a
war hawk, he would have been overjoyed by this stupid blunder.

He supported the overthrow and CIA op. More so he used both cases of Libya as an example for NK with Trump and previous administration's negotations. You are uninformed which is hilarious as your previous sarcasm was actually a statement of fact.

Just another inaccurate name the left pins on Republicans

Nope. Bolton flip/flop on the hopes that the US public is as clueless as you are. Do some basic research about the man and his policies. Read his statement over years. He is on record for years after Libya supporting the war and deal. Heck he want regime change in Iran. That all the ME needs more of...
 

Regiomontanus

Ματαιοδοξία ματαιοδοξιών! Όλα είναι ματαιοδοξία.
President Trump has announced the withdrawal of all US troops from Northern Syria and in consultation with the President of Turkey has green lighted a Turkish invasion of Syria.

This is a massive error in a number of ways.

The Kurds have been a staunch ally of the US in fighting ISIS and al qa eda, for their loyalty and help they will now be abandoned to the Turks, who will slaughter them. Once again showing the US abandons itś allies in regional wars.

Turkey, once a valued secular ally, has fallen under the dictatorship of a muslim idealogue, and is more and more becoming a radical Islamic state. Trump has now empowered them more fully, and their is no doubt that after their invasion, they will annex part of Syria. This will only further encourage the ideas of a pan Islamic caliphate and the return of the Ottoman empire.

This decision strengthens Russian ambitions in the area, Syria will cling to Russia as a counterbalance to Turkey, and will agree to whatever Russia demands. As Russia fills the vacuum left by the departure of the US. others in the area will be forced to make deals with them, to our disadvantage.

As I looked at Trump in 2016 I supported most of his domestic ideas, but was put off by his isolationist foreign
policy thoughts. I hoped that advisers would keep him on the rails in this area, and applauded John Bolton as one who would. In my view, contrary to his detractors, Bolton knows the world thoroughly, understands diplomacy from a position of strength, and doesn´t just throw his hands up and quit.

Throughout his Presidency, I have waited for the real clanger in Trumps foreign policy.

Boltons resignation was the first shoe to drop, I knew something really bad was very likely to come.

The second shoe has dropped, and as I feared, it is the harbinger of disaster.


I am shocked to say it, but I agree with Trump. We need all of those troops home now. Following them home should be all of the troops from South Korea and Europe. That we still have them in Europe is beyond ridiculous.
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
He says all, I think the number is less than 5,000, but they have been adequete to hold ground and keep the Turks from trying to obliterate the Kurds. The great fear has always been that great might would be employed if they were attacked by a nation, as opposed to rag tag insurgents.

The only info I can find is 1000 troops....not much to make a difference...
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Do you remember the old admonition, "Fools rush in where angels fear to tread"?
Tom

Sure. However my point was that do-nothing that opposed ISIS in word but not acts have no ground to stand on. EU isn't China not giving a crap about Syria. EU virtue-signaled it's heart out but did nothing of substance.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Here's what I think is happening.
Putin wants regional control of the oil production in the mideast. He's forming a bloc with Iran, Syria, Turkey, and Iraq.
It will soon be more powerful than the USA bloc, with Saudi Arabia and Israel.

Trump is helping Putin gain control of the incredibly valuable strategic asset that is the gulf oil region. Whether is because he's dumb and easily led or because he'll benefit financially, that's what Trump is doing. And he's been promising this since he started running for president.

It's absolutely no surprise that Putin wanted a billionaire playboy for president, rather than the experienced old warhawk. Clinton wouldn't have been so willing to sell out USA interests.
Tom

Iraq is a puppet of the US. Turkey is hit or miss all depending on how NATO acts such as threatening removal from the alliance (fat chance). Syria has been with Russia for decades. Iran has no choice but Russia or China although that can still change depending on the hawks. The conflict is really about Iran or KSA dominance of the area (excluding Israel) as regional powers. Considering US troops are now in KSA fighting to keep the mightily petrol dollar (the real master of the US) Syria does not really matter given it is still in a civil war and still aligned with Russia.

Obama pulled out of Iraq not Trump. Get your history right lest your conspiracy unravel
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
The primary role of the US is air power not troops on the ground. Ground forces are handled by Iraqi and Kurds.

Still a thousand troops are merely a drop in the bucket. Besides, air power can be readily supplied out of country. We have a fairly substantial air base in Turkey.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
President Trump has announced the withdrawal of all US troops from Northern Syria and in consultation with the President of Turkey has green lighted a Turkish invasion of Syria.

This is a massive error in a number of ways.

The Kurds have been a staunch ally of the US in fighting ISIS and al qa eda, for their loyalty and help they will now be abandoned to the Turks, who will slaughter them. Once again showing the US abandons itś allies in regional wars.

Turkey, once a valued secular ally, has fallen under the dictatorship of a muslim idealogue, and is more and more becoming a radical Islamic state. Trump has now empowered them more fully, and their is no doubt that after their invasion, they will annex part of Syria. This will only further encourage the ideas of a pan Islamic caliphate and the return of the Ottoman empire.

This decision strengthens Russian ambitions in the area, Syria will cling to Russia as a counterbalance to Turkey, and will agree to whatever Russia demands. As Russia fills the vacuum left by the departure of the US. others in the area will be forced to make deals with them, to our disadvantage.

As I looked at Trump in 2016 I supported most of his domestic ideas, but was put off by his isolationist foreign
policy thoughts. I hoped that advisers would keep him on the rails in this area, and applauded John Bolton as one who would. In my view, contrary to his detractors, Bolton knows the world thoroughly, understands diplomacy from a position of strength, and doesn´t just throw his hands up and quit.

Throughout his Presidency, I have waited for the real clanger in Trumps foreign policy.

Boltons resignation was the first shoe to drop, I knew something really bad was very likely to come.

The second shoe has dropped, and as I feared, it is the harbinger of disaster.
So that's your line in the sand, eh? Hmm.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
Turkey, once a valued secular ally, has fallen under the dictatorship of a muslim idealogue, and is more and more becoming a radical Islamic state. Trump has now empowered them more fully, and their is no doubt that after their invasion, they will annex part of Syria. This will only further encourage the ideas of a pan Islamic caliphate and the return of the Ottoman empire.
I fully agree here. Turkey is turning into a nightmare all over again. Erdogan's going to become another Ataturk, and that can only end badly for anyone who isn't an ethnic Turk supporting his regime.

I hoped that advisers would keep him on the rails in this area, and applauded John Bolton as one who would. In my view, contrary to his detractors, Bolton knows the world thoroughly, understands diplomacy from a position of strength, and doesn´t just throw his hands up and quit.
Bolton's nothing but a warmonger. Our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have left both us and the region as a whole worse off for it. Bolton doesn't care about peace or stability. He just wants power at all cost--whether to us or to the rest of the world. Trump made a very wise decision in kicking his pathetic hide to the curb.

Throughout his Presidency, I have waited for the real clanger in Trumps foreign policy.
Calling off the strike on Iran and making more headway in dialogue with North Korea than any preceding President are both pretty good achievements in my book.

Boltons resignation was the first shoe to drop, I knew something really bad was very likely to come.
I cheered when I heard Bolton was kicked out by Trump. Bolton is nothing but a chickenhawk coward who got us into almost 20 years of endless, pointless regime change wars in the Middle East. I have nothing but contempt for the man. He's a slimy liar who wants nothing more than the US to be run into the ground by the military-industrial complex.
 
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