Can you reply to my post?About the soul and spirit?

I am putting this on here to get more replies.It was original on the religion Q & A board.But I thought it might do better on here.

Soul and Spirit
5, 6. According to the Bible, what is the soul?

5 The Bible shows that the soul is not something inside a person; the soul is the very person himself. For example, when God created Adam, “the man came to be a living soul.” (Genesis 2:7) Adam was not given a soul; he was a soul, a complete person.

6 Consequently, we read that souls are born. (Genesis 46:18) They can eat or fast. (Leviticus 7:20; Psalm 35:13) They weep and faint away. (Jeremiah 13:17; Jonah 2:7) Souls can be kidnapped, pursued, and put in irons. (Deuteronomy 24:7; Psalm 7:5; 105:18) Some Bibles render the original-language word as “soul” in those verses, while others use the words “being,” “creature,” or “person.” All mean the same thing.

7. What Bible verses show that the soul can die?

7 Since the soul is the person, when a person dies, the soul dies. Ezekiel 18:4 says: “The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.” Also, Acts 3:23 says: “Any soul [or, person] that does not listen to that Prophet will be completely destroyed from among the people.” So the soul is not something that survives the death of the body.

I got this from here: https://www.jw.org/en/publications/...0-b9a99dd8e320&insight[search_result_index]=1

The Apostle Paul – Departing to be with Christ

Paul is in prison not knowing whether he will live or die, and on this subject, he says:

“Yes, and I shall rejoice. For I know that through your prayers and the help of the Spirit of Jesus Christ this will turn out for my deliverance, as it is my eager expectation and hope that I shall not be at all ashamed, but that with full courage now as always Christ will be honored in my body, whether by life or by death. For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. If it is to be life in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better. But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account. Convinced of this, I know that I shall remain and continue with you all, for your progress and joy in the faith, so that in me you may have ample cause to glory in Christ Jesus, because of my coming to you again.” (Ph’p 1:19-26)

Notice his terminology that juxtaposes the spirit and the flesh: “life in the flesh,” “remain in the flesh,” or “depart and be with Christ,” Paul is picturing his soul or spirit living or remaining in the flesh. Paul is contemplating whether he will live or die – “Christ will be honored in my body, whether by life or death.” So that is the subject, whether Paul lives or dies. He doesn’t know which he would prefer – “I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.” So when Paul dies he is going to depart and be with Christ. That’s crystal clear. Paul concludes by saying it is better for their sake that he not die yet as they still need his ministry.

If Paul did not have an immortal soul then how could he speak this way? How could Paul contrast the concepts “remain in the flesh” with “depart and be with Christ?” If there is no immortal soul Paul will remain in the flesh even when he is dead. The phrase itself “remain in” means there must exist something to be inside or in the flesh. That something would be the soul.

I got this from here: Soul Sleep Disproved | The Christian Answer Man

Soul and Spirit
5, 6. According to the Bible, what is the soul?

5 The Bible shows that the soul is not something inside a person; the soul is the very person himself. For example, when God created Adam, “the man came to be a living soul.” (Genesis 2:7) Adam was not given a soul; he was a soul, a complete person.

In this part of your website it says the soul is not inside a person.But what about what paul says about this in The Apostle Paul- Departing to be with Christ? What does this have to do with Ecclesiastes 9:5 ?

Frank Goad said:

Soul and Spirit
5, 6. According to the Bible, what is the soul?

5 The Bible shows that the soul is not something inside a person; the soul is the very person himself. For example, when God created Adam, “the man came to be a living soul.” (Genesis 2:7) Adam was not given a soul; he was a soul, a complete person.

6 Consequently, we read that souls are born. (Genesis 46:18) They can eat or fast. (Leviticus 7:20; Psalm 35:13) They weep and faint away. (Jeremiah 13:17; Jonah 2:7) Souls can be kidnapped, pursued, and put in irons. (Deuteronomy 24:7; Psalm 7:5; 105:18) Some Bibles render the original-language word as “soul” in those verses, while others use the words “being,” “creature,” or “person.” All mean the same thing.

7. What Bible verses show that the soul can die?

7 Since the soul is the person, when a person dies, the soul dies. Ezekiel 18:4 says: “The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.” Also, Acts 3:23 says: “Any soul [or, person] that does not listen to that Prophet will be completely destroyed from among the people.” So the soul is not something that survives the death of the body.

Click to expand...

That is correct. The soul is the consciousness of someone. Or the stream of their thoughts. Their incorporeal mind if you will. In other words what makes you you is your soul. So any body it is in is the soul. Your brain generates thoughts so it is continuing to generate the soul basically. But if the body dies then you have a spirit body as well that will house the soul.

As for the soul dying. That is judgment of God on a soul that will taste of the 2nd death which is the lake of fire. (Rev. 2:11, Rev. 20:14)

Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

I have always figured that the soul is the combination of the body and the spirit. Certainly, though 'soul' and 'spirit' have often been used interchangeably by the lazy or the less than clear thinkers, that has been the most 'official' use of 'soul.'

For instance, when a ship's population is counted, it is counted in 'souls.' That is, 'there are a hundred and fifty souls on board," meaning that there are that many living people there. They don't count the bodies that they might be carting anywhere (as some ships did, if said body belonged to some rich family that didn't want their son thrown overboard).

When one dies, the body stays and y'all have to do something with it, but the spirit leaves. No more soul.

True, the words are often used as synonyms, but they really shouldn't be. It's confusing. After all, if the 'soul' is the same as the 'spirit,' what DO you call that combination of spirit and body that make up a living person? Easier to say that the combination of spirit and body equal 'soul.' Certainly that is how the bible differentiates it.

(shrug) Works for me, anyway. I don't see that it is all that huge a theological dilemma, frankly.

Frank Goad said:

5, 6. According to the Bible, what is the soul?

Click to expand...

To figure that out, in my opinion you have to look at a hebrew comparison bible (easy to find on the internet now) and then read about what those original words meant before they were translated into our english words. It seems like the word 'soul' could sometimes between translated from a variety of words that may have meant different things. Words like ruach and nephesh may have went be translated interchangeably as being soul and spirit. Ruach seems to be like a sort of breath of god that may circulate from him to the body and back. To further complicate things, the new testament then has a number of words for soul that may have meant something unique to greek culture that may not translate so easily to english either. The word for soul is actually psyche in the septuagint, and pneuma for spirit. Also there are words for other soul like entities like damon and phantasma, I don't know if hebrew had good equivalents for those. Pneuma seems kind of close to ruach, but pnuema was translated in the word 'spirit,' and not 'soul.'

I'm not an expert though, if I had more time to study all this I might though

Frank Goad said:

I am putting this on here to get more replies.It was original on the religion Q & A board.But I thought it might do better on here.

Soul and Spirit
5, 6. According to the Bible, what is the soul?

5 The Bible shows that the soul is not something inside a person; the soul is the very person himself. For example, when God created Adam, “the man came to be a living soul.” (Genesis 2:7) Adam was not given a soul; he was a soul, a complete person.

6 Consequently, we read that souls are born. (Genesis 46:18) They can eat or fast. (Leviticus 7:20; Psalm 35:13) They weep and faint away. (Jeremiah 13:17; Jonah 2:7) Souls can be kidnapped, pursued, and put in irons. (Deuteronomy 24:7; Psalm 7:5; 105:18) Some Bibles render the original-language word as “soul” in those verses, while others use the words “being,” “creature,” or “person.” All mean the same thing.

7. What Bible verses show that the soul can die?

7 Since the soul is the person, when a person dies, the soul dies. Ezekiel 18:4 says: “The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.” Also, Acts 3:23 says: “Any soul [or, person] that does not listen to that Prophet will be completely destroyed from among the people.” So the soul is not something that survives the death of the body.

I got this from here: https://www.jw.org/en/publications/...0-b9a99dd8e320&insight[search_result_index]=1

The Apostle Paul – Departing to be with Christ

Paul is in prison not knowing whether he will live or die, and on this subject, he says:

“Yes, and I shall rejoice. For I know that through your prayers and the help of the Spirit of Jesus Christ this will turn out for my deliverance, as it is my eager expectation and hope that I shall not be at all ashamed, but that with full courage now as always Christ will be honored in my body, whether by life or by death. For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. If it is to be life in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better. But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account. Convinced of this, I know that I shall remain and continue with you all, for your progress and joy in the faith, so that in me you may have ample cause to glory in Christ Jesus, because of my coming to you again.” (Ph’p 1:19-26)

Notice his terminology that juxtaposes the spirit and the flesh: “life in the flesh,” “remain in the flesh,” or “depart and be with Christ,” Paul is picturing his soul or spirit living or remaining in the flesh. Paul is contemplating whether he will live or die – “Christ will be honored in my body, whether by life or death.” So that is the subject, whether Paul lives or dies. He doesn’t know which he would prefer – “I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.” So when Paul dies he is going to depart and be with Christ. That’s crystal clear. Paul concludes by saying it is better for their sake that he not die yet as they still need his ministry.

If Paul did not have an immortal soul then how could he speak this way? How could Paul contrast the concepts “remain in the flesh” with “depart and be with Christ?” If there is no immortal soul Paul will remain in the flesh even when he is dead. The phrase itself “remain in” means there must exist something to be inside or in the flesh. That something would be the soul.

I got this from here: Soul Sleep Disproved | The Christian Answer Man

Soul and Spirit
5, 6. According to the Bible, what is the soul?

5 The Bible shows that the soul is not something inside a person; the soul is the very person himself. For example, when God created Adam, “the man came to be a living soul.” (Genesis 2:7) Adam was not given a soul; he was a soul, a complete person.

In this part of your website it says the soul is not inside a person.But what about what paul says about this in The Apostle Paul- Departing to be with Christ? What does this have to do with Ecclesiastes 9:5 ?

Click to expand...

The title of your first post was only asking Jehovah's Witnesses to answer. That could be one reason why you did not get much traction (especially since you used a lot of long words ). I see you have dropped that restriction this time round.

As I understand it from a brief web search, JWs are conditionalists, believing that only the souls of the saved are immortal and thus survive death of the body. This is in contrast to the more general, traditional, Christian view that the soul is intrinsically immortal.

In Judaism, interestingly, there seems to be no general view as to whether the soul is immortal or not. This leads me to suspect that reference to the Old Testament alone will not provide a clear answer. The Christian view of the soul is very heavily influenced by Greek philosophy, which was something St Paul was well aware of and probably influenced the way he wrote.

Frank Goad said:

I am putting this on here to get more replies.It was original on the religion Q & A board.But I thought it might do better on here.

Soul and Spirit
5, 6. According to the Bible, what is the soul?

5 The Bible shows that the soul is not something inside a person; the soul is the very person himself. For example, when God created Adam, “the man came to be a living soul.” (Genesis 2:7) Adam was not given a soul; he was a soul, a complete person.

6 Consequently, we read that souls are born. (Genesis 46:18) They can eat or fast. (Leviticus 7:20; Psalm 35:13) They weep and faint away. (Jeremiah 13:17; Jonah 2:7) Souls can be kidnapped, pursued, and put in irons. (Deuteronomy 24:7; Psalm 7:5; 105:18) Some Bibles render the original-language word as “soul” in those verses, while others use the words “being,” “creature,” or “person.” All mean the same thing.

7. What Bible verses show that the soul can die?

7 Since the soul is the person, when a person dies, the soul dies. Ezekiel 18:4 says: “The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.” Also, Acts 3:23 says: “Any soul [or, person] that does not listen to that Prophet will be completely destroyed from among the people.” So the soul is not something that survives the death of the body.

I got this from here: https://www.jw.org/en/publications/...0-b9a99dd8e320&insight[search_result_index]=1

The Apostle Paul – Departing to be with Christ

Paul is in prison not knowing whether he will live or die, and on this subject, he says:

“Yes, and I shall rejoice. For I know that through your prayers and the help of the Spirit of Jesus Christ this will turn out for my deliverance, as it is my eager expectation and hope that I shall not be at all ashamed, but that with full courage now as always Christ will be honored in my body, whether by life or by death. For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. If it is to be life in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better. But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account. Convinced of this, I know that I shall remain and continue with you all, for your progress and joy in the faith, so that in me you may have ample cause to glory in Christ Jesus, because of my coming to you again.” (Ph’p 1:19-26)

Notice his terminology that juxtaposes the spirit and the flesh: “life in the flesh,” “remain in the flesh,” or “depart and be with Christ,” Paul is picturing his soul or spirit living or remaining in the flesh. Paul is contemplating whether he will live or die – “Christ will be honored in my body, whether by life or death.” So that is the subject, whether Paul lives or dies. He doesn’t know which he would prefer – “I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.” So when Paul dies he is going to depart and be with Christ. That’s crystal clear. Paul concludes by saying it is better for their sake that he not die yet as they still need his ministry.

If Paul did not have an immortal soul then how could he speak this way? How could Paul contrast the concepts “remain in the flesh” with “depart and be with Christ?” If there is no immortal soul Paul will remain in the flesh even when he is dead. The phrase itself “remain in” means there must exist something to be inside or in the flesh. That something would be the soul.

I got this from here: Soul Sleep Disproved | The Christian Answer Man

Soul and Spirit
5, 6. According to the Bible, what is the soul?

5 The Bible shows that the soul is not something inside a person; the soul is the very person himself. For example, when God created Adam, “the man came to be a living soul.” (Genesis 2:7) Adam was not given a soul; he was a soul, a complete person.

In this part of your website it says the soul is not inside a person.But what about what paul says about this in The Apostle Paul- Departing to be with Christ? What does this have to do with Ecclesiastes 9:5 ?

Click to expand...

Your soul is your mind, will and emotion.
Your spirit is that which is joined with God's Holy Spirit and it is what makes you eternal.

The two are inseparable in being but are separated in the context of understanding. Sometimes the word "heart" is talking about the spirit part of man, sometime it is talking about the soul of man and sometimes about both. (It is understood by the context of the use of the word).

Much like the Greek work for woman or wife. It is the same word but you know which it is referring to by context.

@exchemist

You said:

JWs are conditionalists, believing that only the souls of the saved are immortal and thus survive death of the body.

Click to expand...

As a JW, I can tell you that there is no JW I know of who believes that.
JWs believe that all souls die - including those destined to heaven.
JWs don't believe that being allowed to live forever is the same as immortality. Immortality means cannot die. A mortal being can die. Jesus was mortal. He did not sin. Yet he died. He was resurrected to immortal life in heaven.
Everlasting life given to a mortal is conditional.
The difference between this and the teaching of the immortality of the soul, is that the immortality of the soul automatically rules out resurrection, because if the soul does not die, it does not need to be raised up, or restored - resurrected.
A soul that dies, needs to be.

KenS said:

Your soul is your mind, will and emotion.
Your spirit is that which is joined with God's Holy Spirit and it is what makes you eternal.

The two are inseparable in being but are separated in the context of understanding. Sometimes the word "heart" is talking about the spirit part of man, sometime it is talking about the soul of man and sometimes about both. (It is understood by the context of the use of the word).

Much like the Greek work for woman or wife. It is the same word but you know which it is referring to by context.

Click to expand...

Hey Ken.
Just coming from a different perspective.
What do you think about 1 Corinthians 15:35-41
35 Nevertheless, someone will say: “How are the dead to be raised up? Yes, with what sort of body are they coming?” 36 You unreasonable person! What you sow is not made alive unless first it dies. 37 And as for what you sow, you sow, not the body that will develop, but just a bare grain, whether of wheat or of some other kind of seed; 38 but God gives it a body just as it has pleased him, and gives to each of the seeds its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same flesh, but there is one of mankind, there is another flesh of cattle, another flesh of birds, and another of fish. 40 And there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies; but the glory of the heavenly bodies is one sort, and that of the earthly bodies is a different sort. 41 The glory of the sun is one sort, and the glory of the moon is another, and the glory of the stars is another; in fact, one star differs from another star in glory.

I'm thinking that, according to verse 36, something dies, but what?
The verse says, it cannot be made alive unless it dies.
The verse after, says it's not the body, and we know it is not the spirit that returns to God, so...
However, according to the verses, God raises it up, and gives it a body accordingly - either a flesh body, or spirit body.

nPeace said:

Hey Ken.
Just coming from a different perspective.
What do you think about 1 Corinthians 15:35-41
35 Nevertheless, someone will say: “How are the dead to be raised up? Yes, with what sort of body are they coming?” 36 You unreasonable person! What you sow is not made alive unless first it dies. 37 And as for what you sow, you sow, not the body that will develop, but just a bare grain, whether of wheat or of some other kind of seed; 38 but God gives it a body just as it has pleased him, and gives to each of the seeds its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same flesh, but there is one of mankind, there is another flesh of cattle, another flesh of birds, and another of fish. 40 And there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies; but the glory of the heavenly bodies is one sort, and that of the earthly bodies is a different sort. 41 The glory of the sun is one sort, and the glory of the moon is another, and the glory of the stars is another; in fact, one star differs from another star in glory.

I'm thinking that, according to verse 36, something dies, but what?
The verse says, it cannot be made alive unless it dies.
The verse after, says it's not the body, and we know it is not the spirit that returns to God, so...
However, according to the verses, God raises it up, and gives it a body accordingly - either a flesh body, or spirit body.

Click to expand...

You are digging deep!

My view. I see the body of Jesus Christ, after his resurrection, a sign of things to come. It can be touched, he can eat yet he can walk through a closed door.

"What you sow is not made alive unless it first dies". Our body consists of a clay/dirt that was cursed since the sin of Adam. It is alive but yet dead in that it is separated from the fulness of the Life of God. To become all that God wants us to become, the body must first die.

"37 And as for what you sow, you sow, not the body that will develop, but just a bare grain, whether of wheat or of some other kind of seed;" - my understanding is that it isn't the current body that will develop. Like a bean seed, the body isn't the seed since it will be on the stalk when if first comes out but rather it is what was in the seed that is developed and that which will produce life.

38 "but God gives it a body just as it has pleased him, and gives to each of the seeds its own body." Thus it will be God that gives us a new body. A spiritual body. (Just my opinion, but I believe it will be a body like unto Jesus. Having materiality that can be touched, like the angels that visited Abraham, yet fully spiritual as created by God. Each different than the next person but a spiritual body none the less.

I think I like "The Voice" version as he tries to unpackaged it:

35 Now I know what some of you are thinking: “Just how are the dead going to be raised? What kind of bodies will they have when they come back to life?” 36 Don’t be a fool! The seed you plant doesn’t produce life unless it dies. Right? 37 The seed doesn’t have the same look, the same body, if you will, of what it will have once it starts to grow. It starts out a single, naked seed—whether wheat or some other grain, it doesn’t matter— 38 and God gives to that seed a body just as He has desired. For each of the different kinds of seeds God prepares a unique body. 39 Or look at it this way: not all flesh is the same. Right? There is skin flesh on humans, furry flesh on animals, feathery flesh on birds, and scaly flesh on fish. 40 Likewisethere are bodies made for the heavens and bodies made for the earth. The heavenly bodies have a different kind of glory or luminescence compared to bodies below. 41 Even among the heavenly bodies, there is a different level of brilliance: the sun shines differently than the moon, the moon differently than the stars, and the stars themselves differ in their brightness.

KenS said:

You are digging deep!

Click to expand...

Not really. I thinks it's as simple as Paul explained it.

KenS said:

My view. I see the body of Jesus Christ, after his resurrection, a sign of things to come. It can be touched, he can eat yet he can walk through a closed door.

Click to expand...

So, in your view was Christ resurrected? If yes, what body was he resurrected with?
Why, in your view, were his followers able to see and touch him?

KenS said:

"What you sow is not made alive unless it first dies". Our body consists of a clay/dirt that was cursed since the sin of Adam. It is alive but yet dead in that it is separated from the fulness of the Life of God. To become all that God wants us to become, the body must first die.

"37 And as for what you sow, you sow, not the body that will develop, but just a bare grain, whether of wheat or of some other kind of seed;" - my understanding is that it isn't the current body that will develop. Like a bean seed, the body isn't the seed since it will be on the stalk when if first comes out but rather it is what was in the seed that is developed and that which will produce life.

38 "but God gives it a body just as it has pleased him, and gives to each of the seeds its own body." Thus it will be God that gives us a new body. A spiritual body. (Just my opinion, but I believe it will be a body like unto Jesus. Having materiality that can be touched, like the angels that visited Abraham, yet fully spiritual as created by God. Each different than the next person but a spiritual body none the less.

I think I like "The Voice" version as he tries to unpackaged it:

35 Now I know what some of you are thinking: “Just how are the dead going to be raised? What kind of bodies will they have when they come back to life?” 36 Don’t be a fool! The seed you plant doesn’t produce life unless it dies. Right? 37 The seed doesn’t have the same look, the same body, if you will, of what it will have once it starts to grow. It starts out a single, naked seed—whether wheat or some other grain, it doesn’t matter— 38 and God gives to that seed a body just as He has desired. For each of the different kinds of seeds God prepares a unique body. 39 Or look at it this way: not all flesh is the same. Right? There is skin flesh on humans, furry flesh on animals, feathery flesh on birds, and scaly flesh on fish. 40 Likewisethere are bodies made for the heavens and bodies made for the earth. The heavenly bodies have a different kind of glory or luminescence compared to bodies below. 41 Even among the heavenly bodies, there is a different level of brilliance: the sun shines differently than the moon, the moon differently than the stars, and the stars themselves differ in their brightness.

Click to expand...

Both translations don't appear to say different things. Were you indicating a difference? What were you indicating?

nPeace said:

Both translations don't appear to say different things. Were you indicating a difference? What were you indicating?

Click to expand...

No difference... I just like they words they were using.

nPeace said:

So, in your view was Christ resurrected? If yes, what body was he resurrected with?
Why, in your view, were his followers able to see and touch him?

Click to expand...

Yes. The tomb was empty.

The thing about the body of Jesus, as I studied it, is that it was not made from the ground that was cursed. His body was created by the spoken word of God, as was all other materiality,

When Mary said, "Be it unto me according as you have spoken", the word of God began the construction process even as when God said, "Let there be fish". The angel Gabriel said, "For with God nothing is impossible", a Greek based amplified said it this way, "37 For with God nothing is ever impossible and no word from God shall be without power or impossible of fulfillment."

Since Jesus never sinned, nor was birthed by natural processes, he didn't inherit any curse and thus was able to say, "No one takes my life, I give it freely" for authority is only handed over when sin is enacted. So Satan had no ability to take his life until Jesus gave himself as the Lamb of God.

In as much as his body never returned to dust, it remains the same body but resurrected with full glory as Jesus prayed, "Glorify me with the glory I once had with you".

Why could the disciples touch him? Mind you, I am speaking as one who does not know everything nor claims to have any "special revelation" so I am speaking as I understand with what understanding I have.

Hosea said Jacob fought with an angel, Abraham ate with angels so, as I understand it, the spiritual has the capacity to manifest in the natural. So, IMV, Jesus' body is both spiritual and natural but fully created as God had planned us to be in the first place.

With a berth to be wrong.

"Not really. I thinks it's as simple as Paul explained it."
LOL - OK

Just deeper than the average person.

KenS said:

No difference... I just like they words they were using.



Yes. The tomb was empty.

The thing about the body of Jesus, as I studied it, is that it was not made from the ground that was cursed. His body was created by the spoken word of God, as was all other materiality,

When Mary said, "Be it unto me according as you have spoken", the word of God began the construction process even as when God said, "Let there be fish". The angel Gabriel said, "For with God nothing is impossible", a Greek based amplified said it this way, "37 For with God nothing is ever impossible and no word from God shall be without power or impossible of fulfillment."

Since Jesus never sinned, nor was birthed by natural processes, he didn't inherit any curse and thus was able to say, "No one takes my life, I give it freely" for authority is only handed over when sin is enacted. So Satan had no ability to take his life until Jesus gave himself as the Lamb of God.

In as much as his body never returned to dust, it remains the same body but resurrected with full glory as Jesus prayed, "Glorify me with the glory I once had with you".

Why could the disciples touch him? Mind you, I am speaking as one who does not know everything nor claims to have any "special revelation" so I am speaking as I understand with what understanding I have.

Hosea said Jacob fought with an angel, Abraham ate with angels so, as I understand it, the spiritual has the capacity to manifest in the natural. So, IMV, Jesus' body is both spiritual and natural but fully created as God had planned us to be in the first place.

With a berth to be wrong.

"Not really. I thinks it's as simple as Paul explained it."
LOL - OK

Just deeper than the average person.

Click to expand...

Just trying to understand you clearly, and 'get in your mind', so to speak.

Are you saying that the body Christ died with, is the one he was raised with - the same badly beaten, bruised, and shredded flesh?
Can you put the resurrection in perspective in relation to this, that I can understand it.
Consider it as if you are explaining it to a young teen... fourteen to sixteen perhaps... or even seventeen.

What are your thoughts on these scriptures, in relation to God's "construction process"?
(Job 14:13-15)
13 O that in the Grave you would conceal me, That you would hide me until your anger passes by, That you would set a time limit for me and remember me! 14 If a man dies, can he live again? I will wait all the days of my compulsory service Until my relief comes. 15 You will call, and I will answer you. You will long for the work of your hands. . .

(Psalm 8:3-6)
3 When I see your heavens, the works of your fingers, The moon and the stars that you have prepared, 4 What is mortal man that you keep him in mind, And a son of man that you take care of him? 5 You made him a little lower than godlike ones, And you crowned him with glory and splendor. 6 You gave him dominion over the works of your hands; You have put everything under his feet:

(Psalm 92:4, 5)
4 For you have made me rejoice, O Jehovah, because of your deeds; Because of the works of your hands I shout joyfully. 5 How great your works are, O Jehovah! How very deep your thoughts are!

(Psalm 102:25) Long ago you laid the foundations of the earth, And the heavens are the work of your hands.

nPeace said:

Just trying to understand you clearly, and 'get in your mind', so to speak.

Are you saying that the body Christ died with, is the one he was raised with - the same badly beaten, bruised, and shredded flesh?

Click to expand...

I can only go as far as scriptures tell me and after that it is conjecture and opinion. Jesus said, "put your fist in my side and your finger in my hand" after the resurrection.

nPeace said:

Can you put the resurrection in perspective in relation to this, that I can understand it.
Consider it as if you are explaining it to a young teen... fourteen to sixteen perhaps... or even seventeen.

Click to expand...

I don't think age matters. You have to be as a child to enter the kingdom.

But I would say it this way. "Young man/ woman (or old for that matter , when we are in our glorified bodies, everything about your body will be brand new with no disease or marks. But for eternity, the marks of the nails of the cross on Jesus will always be a constant reminder of God's love for you and a reminder of the price he paid for our sins."

nPeace said:

What are your thoughts on these scriptures, in relation to God's "construction process"?
(Job 14:13-15)
13 O that in the Grave you would conceal me, That you would hide me until your anger passes by, That you would set a time limit for me and remember me! 14 If a man dies, can he live again? I will wait all the days of my compulsory service Until my relief comes. 15 You will call, and I will answer you. You will long for the work of your hands. . .

Click to expand...

I think it is dangerous to take what Job said as completely right for he said: Job 42:3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.

Especially since we have Jesus, the expressed image of God, who spoke exactly what God means and what His will is.

But I believe Job was waiting for the finished work of Jesus Christ - first spiritual and then a new body. ":15 You would call and I would answer, and you would yearn for me, your handiwork.NLT 15 Thou dost call, and I -- I answer Thee; To the work of Thy hands Thou hast desire. YLT."

nPeace said:

(Psalm 8:3-6)
3 When I see your heavens, the works of your fingers, The moon and the stars that you have prepared, 4 What is mortal man that you keep him in mind, And a son of man that you take care of him? 5 You made him a little lower than godlike ones, And you crowned him with glory and splendor. 6 You gave him dominion over the works of your hands; You have put everything under his feet:

Click to expand...

There is some discussion on this one. Some, as I believe, have the word you placed as "Godlike" as God since the Hebrew word is Elohyim. It would be scriptural because God did give man dominion over the words of His hands.

It was when Adam sinned that he lost his proper dominion.

nPeace said:

(Psalm 92:4, 5)
4 For you have made me rejoice, O Jehovah, because of your deeds; Because of the works of your hands I shout joyfully. 5 How great your works are, O Jehovah! How very deep your thoughts are!

Click to expand...

I think we can take this as it says. I know that there are, many times, a dual application. Here I think he is just rejoicing as the Psalm 92 is vey much a Psalm of rejoicing.

But I haven't studied this one in depth.

nPeace said:

(Psalm 102:25) Long ago you laid the foundations of the earth, And the heavens are the work of your hands.

Click to expand...

I found a commentary on this one:

"This is obscure, while the Hebrew text (as translated in our Bibles) is plain. But a significant feature of the Greek is that it makes the whole passage, including the tremendous words of verses 25–28, the words of God to the psalmist, whom God addresses as the Lord and Creator; and this is how Hebrews 1:10–12 quotes verses 25–27, in proof of the Son’s deity.

On this understanding, the whole psalm is Messianic, showing first the Messiah’s sufferings and dereliction (1–11), then his eager anticipation of the kingdom in its world-wide glory (12–22); finally in verses 23–28 God replies that so far this is only half the story, only a few days of his work, which must run its full term, measured by the Messiah’s own endless years. This full course will see the universe itself grown old and superseded; but the Son and the generations of his servants will be for ever.

The lxx performs a service in pointing to the Messianic character of the psalm, and its rendering of verses 23 and 24 is a possible interpretation of the Hebrew consonants. But the familiar translation from the Massoretic Text also allows verses 25ff. to be Messianic, and needs no ingenuity to make verses 23f. intelligible."

Kidner, D. (1975). Psalms 73–150: An Introduction and Commentary (Vol. 16, p. 396). Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press.

I would agree with this position

KenS said:

I can only go as far as scriptures tell me and after that it is conjecture and opinion. Jesus said, "put your fist in my side and your finger in my hand" after the resurrection.

Click to expand...

Well, I do want you to go with what the scriptures tell you. That would be stupendous!
So what do the scriptures tell you?
(1 Corinthians 15:36-46) 36 You unreasonable person! What you sow is not made alive unless first it dies. 37 And as for what you sow, you sow, not the body that will develop, but just a bare grain, whether of wheat or of some other kind of seed; 38 but God gives it a body just as it has pleased him, and gives to each of the seeds its own body.
39 Not all flesh is the same flesh, but there is one of mankind, there is another flesh of cattle, another flesh of birds, and another of fish. 40 And there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies; but the glory of the heavenly bodies is one sort, and that of the earthly bodies is a different sort.
42 So it is with the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised up in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised up in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised up in power. 44 It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, what is spiritual is not first. What is physical is first, and afterward what is spiritual.

(1 Peter 3:18, 19) 18 For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit. 19 And in this state he went and preached to the spirits in prison,
(1 Timothy 3:16)

I hope these scriptures tell you what they tell all of us.
Christ was put to death in the flesh, and made alive in the spirit.
He died as a human with a fleshly (mortal) body, and was raised up with a spirit body - immortal, incorruptible.
After his being raised up, he was given that body from God his father.

Isn't that what the scriptures tell you and I?

KenS said:

I don't think age matters. You have to be as a child to enter the kingdom.

But I would say it this way. "Young man/ woman (or old for that matter , when we are in our glorified bodies, everything about your body will be brand new with no disease or marks. But for eternity, the marks of the nails of the cross on Jesus will always be a constant reminder of God's love for you and a reminder of the price he paid for our sins."



I think it is dangerous to take what Job said as completely right for he said: Job 42:3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.

Especially since we have Jesus, the expressed image of God, who spoke exactly what God means and what His will is.

But I believe Job was waiting for the finished work of Jesus Christ - first spiritual and then a new body. ":15 You would call and I would answer, and you would yearn for me, your handiwork.NLT 15 Thou dost call, and I -- I answer Thee; To the work of Thy hands Thou hast desire. YLT."



There is some discussion on this one. Some, as I believe, have the word you placed as "Godlike" as God since the Hebrew word is Elohyim. It would be scriptural because God did give man dominion over the words of His hands.

It was when Adam sinned that he lost his proper dominion.



I think we can take this as it says. I know that there are, many times, a dual application. Here I think he is just rejoicing as the Psalm 92 is vey much a Psalm of rejoicing.

But I haven't studied this one in depth.



I found a commentary on this one:

"This is obscure, while the Hebrew text (as translated in our Bibles) is plain. But a significant feature of the Greek is that it makes the whole passage, including the tremendous words of verses 25–28, the words of God to the psalmist, whom God addresses as the Lord and Creator; and this is how Hebrews 1:10–12 quotes verses 25–27, in proof of the Son’s deity.

On this understanding, the whole psalm is Messianic, showing first the Messiah’s sufferings and dereliction (1–11), then his eager anticipation of the kingdom in its world-wide glory (12–22); finally in verses 23–28 God replies that so far this is only half the story, only a few days of his work, which must run its full term, measured by the Messiah’s own endless years. This full course will see the universe itself grown old and superseded; but the Son and the generations of his servants will be for ever.

The lxx performs a service in pointing to the Messianic character of the psalm, and its rendering of verses 23 and 24 is a possible interpretation of the Hebrew consonants. But the familiar translation from the Massoretic Text also allows verses 25ff. to be Messianic, and needs no ingenuity to make verses 23f. intelligible."

Kidner, D. (1975). Psalms 73–150: An Introduction and Commentary (Vol. 16, p. 396). Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press.

I would agree with this position

Click to expand...

Thanks for taking the time Ken, but I think you may have lost focus on what I am asking.
My question was, "What are your thoughts on these scriptures, in relation to God's "construction process"?"
In other words, you say God spoke things into existence.
I am asking, what are your thoughts on the scriptures that talks about God's use of his hands in making and creating?

nPeace said:

Thanks for taking the time Ken, but I think you may have lost focus on what I am asking.
My question was, "What are your thoughts on these scriptures, in relation to God's "construction process"?"
In other words, you say God spoke things into existence.
I am asking, what are your thoughts on the scriptures that talks about God's use of his hands in making and creating?

Click to expand...

Not so much "focus" but rather trying to understand your question.

Did you notice a difference?
 When I see your heavens, the works of your fingers vs 6 You gave him dominion over the works of your hands; You have put everything under his feet:

and

"And God said... and it was"

1) Was it fingers or was it hands?
2) Is creation under two big feet?
3) Gen 1: And God said...

It would be difficult to assess everything literally. Again, I use the word of God as a strainer for my positions. If one tries to imply that God used actual hands to create everything, then I would have to throw out Genesis 1.

The only thing that would actually suggest hands in Creation was when He formed Adam out of clay.

nPeace said:

Well, I do want you to go with what the scriptures tell you. That would be stupendous!
So what do the scriptures tell you?
(1 Corinthians 15:36-46) 36 You unreasonable person! What you sow is not made alive unless first it dies. 37 And as for what you sow, you sow, not the body that will develop, but just a bare grain, whether of wheat or of some other kind of seed; 38 but God gives it a body just as it has pleased him, and gives to each of the seeds its own body.
39 Not all flesh is the same flesh, but there is one of mankind, there is another flesh of cattle, another flesh of birds, and another of fish. 40 And there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies; but the glory of the heavenly bodies is one sort, and that of the earthly bodies is a different sort.
42 So it is with the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised up in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised up in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised up in power. 44 It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, what is spiritual is not first. What is physical is first, and afterward what is spiritual.

(1 Peter 3:18, 19) 18 For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit. 19 And in this state he went and preached to the spirits in prison,
(1 Timothy 3:16)

I hope these scriptures tell you what they tell all of us.
Christ was put to death in the flesh, and made alive in the spirit.
He died as a human with a fleshly (mortal) body, and was raised up with a spirit body - immortal, incorruptible.
After his being raised up, he was given that body from God his father.

Isn't that what the scriptures tell you and I?

Click to expand...

If I held to that position, then I would have to have to throw out the empty tomb which would have his old body.

Spiritual? Yes. Does spirituality have a manifestation in the physical? Yes. Can the spiritual be touchable? Yes (angels have had a physical manifestation).

So, if you are trying to say that the body has not physical capacity... (Jesus ate and was touched). Was his body different when the Holy Spirit raised him from the dead? Yes. But did the Father use the same body? I would have to hold on to "Yes".

(On the fly and Will be gone for 9 days)

KenS said:

Not so much "focus" but rather trying to understand your question.

Did you notice a difference?
 When I see your heavens, the works of your fingers vs 6 You gave him dominion over the works of your hands; You have put everything under his feet:

and

"And God said... and it was"

1) Was it fingers or was it hands?
2) Is creation under two big feet?
3) Gen 1: And God said...

It would be difficult to assess everything literally. Again, I use the word of God as a strainer for my positions. If one tries to imply that God used actual hands to create everything, then I would have to throw out Genesis 1.

The only thing that would actually suggest hands in Creation was when He formed Adam out of clay.



If I held to that position, then I would have to have to throw out the empty tomb which would have his old body.

Spiritual? Yes. Does spirituality have a manifestation in the physical? Yes. Can the spiritual be touchable? Yes (angels have had a physical manifestation).

So, if you are trying to say that the body has not physical capacity... (Jesus ate and was touched). Was his body different when the Holy Spirit raised him from the dead? Yes. But did the Father use the same body? I would have to hold on to "Yes".

(On the fly and Will be gone for 9 days)

Click to expand...

But you are using word and speak literally Ken.
Jesus said he did things by the finger of God, which he likened Holy spirit to, and Genesis shows that the Holy Spirit was used in creation - Genesis 1:2.
The scriptures do say that God created.

Why should the tomb have Jesus old body? No one questions why nobody found Moses body. The scripture don't give details on every single thing. So because it doesn't tell us what God did with the body, there is no reason for us to formulate an idea concerning it.

What the Bible tells us... particularly in those scriptures I asked you about, is what should concern us. That's what we know.
You didn't tell me what those scriptures tell you, so I am going to assume they tell you the same thing they tell me. Is that okay?

I see however, you have decided to hold on to your view, based on your understanding concerning Jesus' words at Luke 24:38, 39.
<sigh> Take care Ken.

nPeace said:

But you are using word and speak literally Ken.
Jesus said he did things by the finger of God, which he likened Holy spirit to, and Genesis shows that the Holy Spirit was used in creation - Genesis 1:2.
The scriptures do say that God created.

Click to expand...

Not quite:

He did say he cast out demons by the finger of God: Luke 11: 20 But if I drive out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

But He also said: Matt 8:16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:

So we can't be dogmatic and say that he did everything with the finger of God.

I don't see where he likened the finger with the Holy Spirit although I agree that the Holy Spirit was part of creating the world.

nPeace said:

Why should the tomb have Jesus old body? No one questions why nobody found Moses body. The scripture don't give details on every single thing. So because it doesn't tell us what God did with the body, there is no reason for us to formulate an idea concerning it.

Click to expand...

Why does his new body have the holes on his hand? Why wasn't the body in the tomb? If the old body wasn't in the tomb... where did it go?

I would have to have more understanding to take a position different from what I am reading.

nPeace said:

What the Bible tells us... particularly in those scriptures I asked you about, is what should concern us. That's what we know.
You didn't tell me what those scriptures tell you, so I am going to assume they tell you the same thing they tell me. Is that okay?

Click to expand...

LOL... I would have to go back and make sure which scriptures you are referencing. We have agreed on many and disagreed on some but I can't remember which ones you are referencing here.

nPeace said:

I see however, you have decided to hold on to your view, based on your understanding concerning Jesus' words at Luke 24:38, 39.
<sigh> Take care Ken.

Click to expand...

Thank you! And you too!. I have changed positions on some things but only because I was convinced and scriptures support it.

If I take a position that has other scriptures that say something different, i would violate my conscious. I guess we all reconcile the difference is scriptures (such as hand, finger and word in creation).

But we all believe Jesus was raised from the dead and believe He is Lord.

Blessings.

K.

KenS said:

Not quite:

Click to expand...

So you don't use word and speak literally? How do you use them?

KenS said:

He did say he cast out demons by the finger of God: Luke 11: 20 But if I drive out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

But He also said: Matt 8:16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:

So we can't be dogmatic and say that he did everything with the finger of God.

I don't see where he likened the finger with the Holy Spirit although I agree that the Holy Spirit was part of creating the world.

Click to expand...

So you are taking word here literally, correct?
The corresponding verse to Luke is Matthew 12:28 - But if it is by means of God’s spirit that I expel the demons, the Kingdom of God has really overtaken you.
These along with Genesis 1:2 shows that it was by means of the holy spirit that Jehovah accomplishes his works.
Persons infused with God's spirit were able to perform powerful works - Moses, Elijah, Samson, Jesus, Peter, Paul, etc.

KenS said:

Why does his new body have the holes on his hand? Why wasn't the body in the tomb? If the old body wasn't in the tomb... where did it go?

I would have to have more understanding to take a position different from what I am reading.

Click to expand...

Why did his new body have clothes? Why did visiting angelic messengers have bodies, and clothes? Are the clothes spirit?
Where did Moses' body go?

KenS said:

LOL... I would have to go back and make sure which scriptures you are referencing. We have agreed on many and disagreed on some but I can't remember which ones you are referencing here.

Click to expand...

Oh. I'm referring to, the scriptures I asked about here.

KenS said:

Thank you! And you too!. I have changed positions on some things but only because I was convinced and scriptures support it.

Click to expand...

That's good.

KenS said:

If I take a position that has other scriptures that say something different, i would violate my conscious. I guess we all reconcile the difference is scriptures (such as hand, finger and word in creation).

Click to expand...

I think it is not that difficult when everything is understood in their proper context.
However, if there was no confusion, there would be no Satan. Right?

KenS said:

But we all believe Jesus was raised from the dead and believe He is Lord.

Click to expand...

I believe you, like many who repeat that, mean well.
I have to in good conscience tell you that I don't like when people say that. To me it seems to be their way of saying, it doesn't matter what we believe, so long as we agree on this.
I think that amounts to a watering down of God's word, and takes away from the seriousness of what Jesus said at Matthew 7:21-23.
However, I do understand that most religious people believe we can be divided, and still have fellowship, but was that the teachings of the apostles?

KenS said:

Blessings.

K.

Click to expand...

Thanks. Peace to you.

nPeace said:

So you don't use word and speak literally? How do you use them?

Click to expand...

I must not be explaining myself well...

I believe the Word of God. Parables are not literal. When it says "There is healing in His wings" -- God doesn't have wings... it is figurative although the healing is literal. When it say "The name of the Lord is a strong tower: the righteous runneth into it, and is safe." -- the name of the Lord isn't literally a "Tower" and we don't "run into a tower" -- literally... it is figurative. However, as a tower is provides safety we literally can be assured that the name of the Lord will give us safety.

nPeace said:

So you are taking word here literally, correct?
The corresponding verse to Luke is Matthew 12:28 - But if it is by means of God’s spirit that I expel the demons, the Kingdom of God has really overtaken you.
These along with Genesis 1:2 shows that it was by means of the holy spirit that Jehovah accomplishes his works.
Persons infused with God's spirit were able to perform powerful works - Moses, Elijah, Samson, Jesus, Peter, Paul, etc.

Click to expand...

I agree completely. The Kingdom of God is within us. And certainly we can do nothing without the God's Holy Spirit.

But again... I can't take one scripture and throw out another scripture. We have to use all scripture:

Luke 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

It is also the Name of Jesus that is used (in conjunction with the power of the Holy Spirit) that it is accomplished.

And then, again, faith must be used too for all things are possible when you believe.

So we must take all of the scripture and not create a position with one scripture and then declare that it is only that scripture that is true at the expense of all other scripture.

nPeace said:

Why did his new body have clothes? Why did visiting angelic messengers have bodies, and clothes? Are the clothes spirit?
Where did Moses' body go?

Click to expand...

I'm not sure why you didn't answer my question.

His clothes were still in the tomb but his body wasn't. We are talking about his body. Why did his body still have holes if it was a new body?

We know that Moses went up the mountain to die. We know that Satan contended for the body of Moses (not his spiritual body but his natural body). Other than that, we know nothing.

We have no idea how Jesus (with clothes) walking through a door.

nPeace said:

Oh. I'm referring to, the scriptures I asked about here.

Click to expand...

Certainly I agree with the scriptures here... but it is talking about our natural bodies and not the body of Jesus Christ.

Please note what I believe is the correct amplified understanding:

45-49 We follow this sequence in Scripture: The First Adam received life, the Last Adam is a life-giving Spirit. Physical life comes first, then spiritual—a firm base shaped from the earth, a final completion coming out of heaven. The First Man was made out of earth, and people since then are earthy; the Second Man was made out of heaven, and people now can be heavenly. In the same way that we’ve worked from our earthy origins, let’s embrace our heavenly ends.

The body of Jesus was made out of Heaven. It was not made of a cursed land but rather created by God by the Spirit of God.

nPeace said:

I think it is not that difficult when everything is understood in their proper context.
However, if there was no confusion, there would be no Satan. Right?

Click to expand...

There is a difference between "confusion" and lack of understanding. Confusion produces every evil work -- but we can seek God for understanding. Not everything is cause by Satan.

When Mary asked "how can this be so since I have not known a man" -- she had no understanding but it wasn't caused by Satan and it wasn't "confusion".

When Zachariah said, " And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years." -- it wasn't confusion it was unbelief caused by himself.

There is a confusion that is Satan spawned.

nPeace said:

I believe you, like many who repeat that, mean well.
I have to in good conscience tell you that I don't like when people say that. To me it seems to be their way of saying, it doesn't matter what we believe, so long as we agree on this.
I think that amounts to a watering down of God's word, and takes away from the seriousness of what Jesus said at Matthew 7:21-23.
However, I do understand that most religious people believe we can be divided, and still have fellowship, but was that the teachings of the apostles?

Click to expand...

Again, because I am human, I may not be clearly expressing myself. I do take God's word seriously.

Romans 14 talks about different positions yet we can still walk in harmony. (There is a point where one may have to separate oneself--but God ultimately will be the judge)

"Romans 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."

It didn't say one is watering down God's word. (There is that which is watering down). It was saying that there are certain areas that there can be differences and yet one can walk in harmony by not being a stumbling block to another because of one's faith.

If one person believes that miracles have passed away--and believes that with all of their heart as unto the Lord... then that person can believe that and die.

If another person believe that God is the same yesterday, today and forever and that Psalms 103 is God's word and that the Kingdom of God has come nigh unto them and we are to go and heal the sick because there are still miracles, that person can believe that, get healed but ultimately (at some time when they are old) will die at the end.

Each position of belief isn't a deal breaker (except for when they die). When Jesus couldn't do miracles, he simply went about teaching (I assume to try to help them believe). He didn't say they were confused or that it was Satan spawned but simply was amazed at their unbelief.

KenS said:

I must not be explaining myself well...

I believe the Word of God. Parables are not literal. When it says "There is healing in His wings" -- God doesn't have wings... it is figurative although the healing is literal. When it say "The name of the Lord is a strong tower: the righteous runneth into it, and is safe." -- the name of the Lord isn't literally a "Tower" and we don't "run into a tower" -- literally... it is figurative. However, as a tower is provides safety we literally can be assured that the name of the Lord will give us safety.

Click to expand...

Remember Ken, we are discussing you taking expressions such as "Be it unto me according as you have spoken", and "Let there be fish", to mean that... as you expressed it...
His body was created by the spoken word of God, as was all other materiality

This is not related to parables, but interpreting phrases about God's spoken word, to mean literal actions.
I am really seeking to understand how you go about concluding that these are to be interpreted as actions, considering that other scriptures directly says "God made", or refers to the "works of God's hands", but you seem to take these figuratively.

In other words, I am trying to grasp your methods of interpretation.
Especially since you take these words "For with God nothing is ever impossible and no word from God shall be without power or impossible of fulfillment." to mean that God's word is somehow comparable to a magic wand.

Take as an example... God said this... "Now Naʹa·man’s leprosy will stick to you and your descendants forever." The account says, Immediately he went out from before him a leper, white as snow.
You interpret this to mean that God's spoken word turned Gehazi a leper, as opposed to God carrying out his word by striking Gehazi with leprosy.
I hope you understand what I am saying. It's a bit hard putting in words what I mean by acting to effect something, as opposed to speaking into effect.

KenS said:

I agree completely. The Kingdom of God is within us. And certainly we can do nothing without the God's Holy Spirit.

But again... I can't take one scripture and throw out another scripture. We have to use all scripture:

Luke 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

It is also the Name of Jesus that is used (in conjunction with the power of the Holy Spirit) that it is accomplished.

And then, again, faith must be used too for all things are possible when you believe.

So we must take all of the scripture and not create a position with one scripture and then declare that it is only that scripture that is true at the expense of all other scripture.



I'm not sure why you didn't answer my question.

His clothes were still in the tomb but his body wasn't. We are talking about his body. Why did his body still have holes if it was a new body?

Click to expand...

I am only trying to help you reason on it, Ken.
So I asked the question, rather than give you an answer.
When I asked about the clothes, it is with the intent that you would consider that the clothes are not the body, yet the clothes went through the wall, appeared and disappeared, and the disciples could cling to them.
So if you are making an argument for the body, why not the clothes?
Why did his new body have clothes? Why did visiting angelic messengers have bodies, and clothes? Are the clothes spirit? Where did the clothes come from?
These, I think, are questions to consider in relation to what you are asking.

I think it is clear. If spirits can materialize clothes, they can materialize bodies.
The angels appeared in human form. They ate, and drank. Fire could not harm them.
Why did an extremely hot furnace, not even singe the clothes of Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah?
Would that not answer the question as to why Jesus could walk through a locked door? Could Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah, have done the same, do you think?

There is no need to speculation about what happened to the body in the tomb.
What happened to the dead body of the Christ is not relevant to what the scriptures say about the resurrection of the dead - including Christ.
You agreed with them.
(1 Corinthians 15:36-46) 36 You unreasonable person! What you sow is not made alive unless first it dies. 37 And as for what you sow, you sow, not the body that will develop, but just a bare grain, whether of wheat or of some other kind of seed; 38 but God gives it a body just as it has pleased him, and gives to each of the seeds its own body.
39 Not all flesh is the same flesh, but there is one of mankind, there is another flesh of cattle, another flesh of birds, and another of fish. 40 And there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies; but the glory of the heavenly bodies is one sort, and that of the earthly bodies is a different sort.
42 So it is with the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised up in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised up in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised up in power. 44 It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, what is spiritual is not first. What is physical is first, and afterward what is spiritual.

(1 Peter 3:18, 19) 18 For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit. 19 And in this state he went and preached to the spirits in prison,
(1 Timothy 3:16)

If you agree with them, then Jesus being put to death as a human, and raised as a spirit, would rule out the idea that the same body he was put to death with, is the same body he was raised with.

KenS said:

We know that Moses went up the mountain to die. We know that Satan contended for the body of Moses (not his spiritual body but his natural body). Other than that, we know nothing.

We have no idea how Jesus (with clothes) walking through a door.

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I think we have some idea.
They obviously are not the same physical substance, but are of a spiritual nature.
Either that, or spirits create dimensions to interact with humans, but how would that be, unless the human enters that dimension... Now I am speculating.

KenS said:

Certainly I agree with the scriptures here... but it is talking about our natural bodies and not the body of Jesus Christ.

Please note what I believe is the correct amplified understanding:

45-49 We follow this sequence in Scripture: The First Adam received life, the Last Adam is a life-giving Spirit. Physical life comes first, then spiritual—a firm base shaped from the earth, a final completion coming out of heaven. The First Man was made out of earth, and people since then are earthy; the Second Man was made out of heaven, and people now can be heavenly. In the same way that we’ve worked from our earthy origins, let’s embrace our heavenly ends.

The body of Jesus was made out of Heaven. It was not made of a cursed land but rather created by God by the Spirit of God.

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Paraphrased Bibles can be misleading, and here you are evidently misunderstanding, and misinterpreting the text.
Please note that these scriptures are discussing resurrection.
(1 Corinthians 15:45-49) 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, what is spiritual is not first. What is physical is first, and afterward what is spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth and made of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 Like the one made of dust, so too are those made of dust; and like the heavenly one, so too are those who are heavenly. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we will bear also the image of the heavenly one.

What is the translation you are using?

KenS said:

There is a difference between "confusion" and lack of understanding. Confusion produces every evil work -- but we can seek God for understanding. Not everything is cause by Satan.

When Mary asked "how can this be so since I have not known a man" -- she had no understanding but it wasn't caused by Satan and it wasn't "confusion".

When Zachariah said, " And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years." -- it wasn't confusion it was unbelief caused by himself.

There is a confusion that is Satan spawned.


Again, because I am human, I may not be clearly expressing myself. I do take God's word seriously.

Romans 14 talks about different positions yet we can still walk in harmony. (There is a point where one may have to separate oneself--but God ultimately will be the judge)

"Romans 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."

It didn't say one is watering down God's word. (There is that which is watering down). It was saying that there are certain areas that there can be differences and yet one can walk in harmony by not being a stumbling block to another because of one's faith.

If one person believes that miracles have passed away--and believes that with all of their heart as unto the Lord... then that person can believe that and die.

If another person believe that God is the same yesterday, today and forever and that Psalms 103 is God's word and that the Kingdom of God has come nigh unto them and we are to go and heal the sick because there are still miracles, that person can believe that, get healed but ultimately (at some time when they are old) will die at the end.

Each position of belief isn't a deal breaker (except for when they die). When Jesus couldn't do miracles, he simply went about teaching (I assume to try to help them believe). He didn't say they were confused or that it was Satan spawned but simply was amazed at their unbelief.

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I believe, as you mentioned, the scriptures should be taken as a whole.
Confusion exists because of what Satan has done with truth. 2 Corinthians 4:3, 4; Revelation 12:9
It is good when we seek understanding, but we must never be as the scripture says, "ignorant of Satan's designs". A confused person can be a sincere person. A sincere person can misunderstand, and be confused... We must always be alert. (2 Corinthians 11:12-15)
This is a whole new subject though.