Is it Possible to Prove Being the Messiah?

Trailblazer said:

This is what most people do, interpret scripture suit themselves.

After all, none of them have a Messiah who has actually come, so they can mix n' match scriptures in order to make the Messiah in their own image, what they want the Messiah to look like, kind of like dressing up a Barbie doll, or in this case a Ken doll.

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They haven't bothered to look at who these prophets are, when they lived and who they were talking about,, Christians tend tp claim all of them are talking about Jesus.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

Sure, it's possible. All you need to be able to demonstrate is:

- that God exists.
- that God wrote some religious text - or at least made sure that it's exactly what he wanted.
- that the religious text has been transmitted to us intact.
- that God's intended meaning in this text can be discerned.
- that this intended meaning lays out that a Messiah exists and the criteria for messiahship.
- that we can accurately measure people against these criteria.
- that God wasn't lying.
- that the criteria in God's intended meaning establish a given person as the Messiah.

Good luck with all that. Personally, I can't see how you could demonstrate a single one of these.

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All true and so thorough, and as I always say, atheists are so much more rational than most believers.

I *believe* that Baha'u'llah was the Messiah but I would never say I can *prove* that Baha'u'llah was the Messiah, not to anyone except myself.

sooda said:

They haven't bothered to look at who these prophets are, when they lived and who they were talking about,, Christians tend tp claim all of them are talking about Jesus.

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For almost all Christians EVERYTHING is about Jesus...
It is nice to see a Christian who does not think that way.
Jesus can still be Jesus even if EVERYTHING is not about Him...
I highly doubt that Jesus would have wanted all this fanfare.

JJ50 said:

I wonder what the real Jesus was actually like? I bet he was nothing like way he is portrayed in the Bible.

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Not in Paul's Epistles, that's for sure.

susanblange said:

Jesus is Satan's counterfeit messiah.

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Agreed J+sus in Hebrew is a swear word meaning the "Shall be a Beast"; yet Yehoshua is the symbolic Branch of David, and Yeshua means Salvation in Hebrew.

wizanda said:

The Hebraic texts all contain Yeshua, and Yehoshua, this is the whole point in the Bible, and it warns this will happen that they will reject Yeshua (Salvation - Deuteronomy 32:15).

H3444 (Yeshua) + H1961 (To become) = Exodus 15:2, Psalms 118:14-21, Isaiah 12:2 (2 Samuel 10:11 David Vs Ammon) +5 Verses Isaiah

H3444 (Yeshua) + H7200 (To see) = Exodus 14:13, Psalms 98:3, Isaiah 52:10 (2 Chronicles 20:17 Jehoshaphat Vs Ammon)

Concept of Yeshua (Salvation) in the Bible​

So Moses separated the Red Sea in Exodus 14:13, and we saw the Salvation of God interact with mankind.

Then Moses creates a Song in Exodus 15:2 that the Lord will become our Salvation; this is continued by David in Psalm 118 where the Builders reject the Chief Corner Stone, not understanding the depths of prophecy.

The Lord promised David he would become our Salvation if the Children of Ammon were too strong (2 Samuel 10:11), and then fought them with Jehoshaphat (2 Chronicles 20:17).

When the Lord appoints David as a chosen vessel in Psalms 89:19-21, this is paraphrased in Isaiah 52:13-14 (it has been badly translated, it should say anointed, not marred); where the Spirit of Salvation is put into him in Isaiah 52:10-12.

Evolution of Yehoshua
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Moses changed his friend's name Hosea (Deliverer/Savoir) son of Nun to Yehoshua, which changes it to Shall Deliver or the Lord Saves.

In Exodus 23:20-23 the Lord states he will put his title on his messenger, who has the power to forgive sin, and shall remove the false theologies from the land.

In Joshua 3:10 we see that Yehoshua starts the process of removing the false gods, and that the name then become symbolic of the promise made.

After the Babylonian Exile we see that Yehoshua son of Yehozadek led the people back.

So when we have the name Yehoshua, this is why it says, "he shall save his people" (Matthew 1:21), as it all fits with the Tanakh.
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jesus being a false Christ​

Sus in Hebrew is the word Grub (H5580) or a Horse (H5483), an untrained animal, i.e. a Beast.

If we add a Yod at the start of a word, it makes it shall be, so J+Sus = Shall be a Beast.

The Strongs reference number amazingly for false christs - pseudochristos is G5580.

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susanblange said:

There will not be one God in the world until the death and resurrection of the Messiah/God.

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An Elohim is not God (the Source of our reality); it is a Divine Being manifest by the Source (El) i.e.an Archangel.

Read Isaiah 46:9 in Hebrew, 'El is not like the Elohim, and there are none besides'.

In my opinion.

Trailblazer said:

Gorgeous... I always say that atheists are sharper than believers.

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I should say "absolutely spot on" but i do know some very sharp believers.

ChristineM said:

I should say "absolutely spot on" but i do know some very sharp believers.

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Actually, I find atheists a bit evasive when you hit them with the hard questions
about the meaning of life, why is there something instead of nothing, is the
word becoming a more moral place without religion and so on.

Trailblazer said:

And Jesus is NOT coming back to fulfill the rest of them, He said so. John 17:4 John 17:11.

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John is made up on well over 30 points.

Prophecy across the Tanakh & world said he'll come back at the end (Just have to learn to exegete properly), and Yeshua said it in multiple places that his return is at the midnight hour (Matthew 25:1-13, Mark 13:35-37).

In my opinion.

blü 2 said:

Quote me the precise words, I don't find 'salvation' mentioned anywhere in Isaiah 52:11-14.

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Isaiah 52:10 Yahweh has made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God.

Yeshuat Eloheinu = ישׁועת אלהינו = Salvation from our Divine Being.

blü 2 said:

retrofitting to confuse the Suffering Servant with Jesus.

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If Moses (Exodus 15:2), David (Psalms 118:14-21), then Isaiah (Isaiah 12:2, Isaiah 52:10) prophesied it, then it isn't retrofitting; it was already stated in Hebrew, people are just too argumentative to read & understand it all properly.

Which means mankind will soon wipe its self out in WW3 as it stated, as they don't listen unfortunately, and now you're also arguing it from their perspective too; as if some how you have more logic than the text - which the ideas came from.

blü 2 said:

the Tanakh says that God is already the savior of the Suffering Servant

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The Tanakh is item specific: Yahavah Elohim the Creator of reality is going to put its Spirit onto the Messiah (Isaiah 11:2) to perform mighty acts; those who go against it get condemned (Exodus 23:20-23).

The Source of reality EL is the Savoir, that is what Salvation means; as just saying we see the Salvation of God interact with mankind in different ways throughout the Bible.

blü 2 said:

What doesn't make sense is the idea that Jesus is prophesied anywhere in the Tanakh, or that the NT's Jesus in any way fits the job description of a/the messiah.

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That explanation of the Tanakh in the post will post again, please read it this time, and study the details, as otherwise you're just guessing, like most people do.

wizanda said:

The Hebraic texts all contain Yeshua, and Yehoshua, this is the whole point in the Bible, and it warns this will happen that they will reject Yeshua (Salvation - Deuteronomy 32:15).

H3444 (Yeshua) + H1961 (To become) = Exodus 15:2, Psalms 118:14-21, Isaiah 12:2 (2 Samuel 10:11 David Vs Ammon) +5 Verses Isaiah

H3444 (Yeshua) + H7200 (To see) = Exodus 14:13, Psalms 98:3, Isaiah 52:10 (2 Chronicles 20:17 Jehoshaphat Vs Ammon)

Concept of Yeshua (Salvation) in the Bible​

So Moses separated the Red Sea in Exodus 14:13, and we saw the Salvation of God interact with mankind.

Then Moses creates a Song in Exodus 15:2 that the Lord will become our Salvation; this is continued by David in Psalm 118 where the Builders reject the Chief Corner Stone, not understanding the depths of prophecy.

The Lord promised David he would become our Salvation if the Children of Ammon were too strong (2 Samuel 10:11), and then fought them with Jehoshaphat (2 Chronicles 20:17).

When the Lord appoints David as a chosen vessel in Psalms 89:19-21, this is paraphrased in Isaiah 52:13-14 (it has been badly translated, it should say anointed, not marred); where the Spirit of Salvation is put into him in Isaiah 52:10-12.

Evolution of Yehoshua
​

Moses changed his friend's name Hosea (Deliverer/Savoir) son of Nun to Yehoshua, which changes it to Shall Deliver or the Lord Saves.

In Exodus 23:20-23 the Lord states he will put his title on his messenger, who has the power to forgive sin, and shall remove the false theologies from the land.

In Joshua 3:10 we see that Yehoshua starts the process of removing the false gods, and that the name then become symbolic of the promise made.

After the Babylonian Exile we see that Yehoshua son of Yehozadek led the people back.

So when we have the name Yehoshua, this is why it says, "he shall save his people" (Matthew 1:21), as it all fits with the Tanakh.
​

jesus being a false Christ​

Sus in Hebrew is the word Grub (H5580) or a Horse (H5483), an untrained animal, i.e. a Beast.

If we add a Yod at the start of a word, it makes it shall be, so J+Sus = Shall be a Beast.

The Strongs reference number amazingly for false christs - pseudochristos is G5580.

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Like take into account the False Christ 'J+sus' is prophesied in Isaiah 51:8, Revelation 19:20 to be removed; being restored with the true one - Yehoshua/Yeshua thus restoring Israel to Majesty.

Like Israel is restored without price (Isaiah 52:3) or war (Zechariah 4:6), simply by this declaration; yet the world would need to recognize it.

blü 2 said:

Even if it's David, that won't help your argument.

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Like please explain how this doesn't help - if we can show David was prophesied to become Yeshua; we have a historical contexts?

In my opinion.

Trailblazer said:

It is not only said, it is true. And Jesus is NOT coming back to fulfill the rest of them, He said so.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

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In my opinion. I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do.

I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am
coming to you. Holy Father...

This is not saying that Jesus will not come again. He's talking about His
mission.
THIS tells you what Jesus said "Jesus answered them, “Destroy this
temple, and I will raise it again in three days. But the temple he had spoken
of was his body. After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled
what he had said. Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus
had spoken."

Why do you people do this all the time?

PruePhillip said:

Actually, I find atheists a bit evasive when you hit them with the hard questions
about the meaning of life, why is there something instead of nothing, is the
word becoming a more moral place without religion and so on.

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So questions that really don't have anything to do with atheism?

wizanda said:

J+sus in Hebrew is a swear word meaning the "Shall be a Beast"

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What?

I mean, all the other stuff is ridiculous, but this is really ridiculous.

Do you even know any Hebrew? J+sus?

Hebrew has no J and "sus" (pronounced soos) means "horse."

PruePhillip said:

Actually, I find atheists a bit evasive when you hit them with the hard questions
about the meaning of life, why is there something instead of nothing, is the
word becoming a more moral place without religion and so on.

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Do you mean you get answers you dont want to hear? The logical and scientific answers as opposed to the magic and guess answers?

What meaning of life? In universal terms there is no meaning to life other than 42. On a personal level, to live the best you can and carry on your genes. Of course there are other personal nuances, they vary from person to person.

There is nothing evasive about being honest and saying "unknown". More a problem is religion also not knowing but claiming god dun it because they are not honest enough to admit the fact that nothing is known for pre 10e-42 of a second after the BB. After that yes, it is known how our universe formed to become what it is today.

Of course humanity has no need for religion to be moral, morality is a human (and many animals) trait. Just because religion stole it (how moral is that) then excluded all those who do not worship in precisely the way they do does not make religion more moral but more bigoted.

Now, can you give valid, evidenced answers to your own questions?

rosends said:

Do you even know any Hebrew? J+sus?

Hebrew has no J and "sus" (pronounced soos) means "horse."

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Isaiah 51:8 has the word 'sus' as a grub (H5580) or a horse (H5483), thus sus is a beast - an untrained animal; add a Yod/J to the start, and it becomes Shall be a Beast.

Therefore when Yeshua prophesied about false Christs - pseudochristos (G5580), and the Sefer of Zerubbabel reports there is both a true Messiah (Yehoshua/Yeshua), and a false one J+sus (Beast).

Revelation reports the same, that the world has already been deceived by the Beast (J+sus); same with the concepts of the Dajjal, there is a false Messiah (J+sus - John, Paul, and Simon), and a true one (Synoptic Gospels, Revelation).

rosends said:

I mean, all the other stuff is ridiculous, but this is really ridiculous.

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Calling something ridiculous that you hardly understand, is like saying to Einstein, "maths isn't done that way with letters, you're meant to use numbers".

In my opinion.

wizanda said:

Calling something ridiculous that you hardly understand, is like saying to Einstein, "maths isn't done that way with letters, you're meant to use numbers".

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So you consider yourself the "Einstein" of Hebrew?

9-10ths_Penguin said:

So you consider yourself the "Einstein" of Hebrew?

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No not in the slightest, I'm only just on the basics of Ancient Hebrew, and since no one speaks it any more, it will take years to understand it fully.

Modern Hebrew with Masoretic points sounds nothing like what we find in the Bible.

I'm saying some of the concepts of algebra that I'm generally showing from the Biblical equations, is all in sums, and then I'm told, "that isn't a sum, it has numbers instead of letters in maths".

In my opinion.

wizanda said:

Isaiah 51:8 has the word 'sus' as a grub (H5580) or a horse (H5483), thus sus is a beast - an untrained animal; add a Yod/J to the start, and it becomes Shall be a Beast.

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Isaiah 51:8 has sas, not sus. Sas is a worm. And "Add a Yod/J to the start"? Add any letter and it can be something else. You can't just add letters and claim meaning.

ChristineM said:

Do you mean you get answers you dont want to hear? The logical and scientific answers as opposed to the magic and guess answers?

What meaning of life? In universal terms there is no meaning to life other than 42. On a personal level, to live the best you can and carry on your genes. Of course there are other personal nuances, they vary from person to person.

There is nothing evasive about being honest and saying "unknown". More a problem is religion also not knowing but claiming god dun it because they are not honest enough to admit the fact that nothing is known for pre 10e-42 of a second after the BB. After that yes, it is known how our universe formed to become what it is today.

Of course humanity has no need for religion to be moral, morality is a human (and many animals) trait. Just because religion stole it (how moral is that) then excluded all those who do not worship in precisely the way they do does not make religion more moral but more bigoted.

Now, can you give valid, evidenced answers to your own questions?

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No, the answer is something like this:

Atheist, "If God made the world, then who made God?"
Theist, "We can't comprehend what lies outside of our universe to even ask such a question. It says God is eternal."
Atheist, "Then you haven't answered my question."
Theist, "How did the universe spring into existence from nothing?"
Atheist, "The universe just happened, that's all. Or it is eternal."

or

Theist, "God brought the rain."
Atheist, "No, it's all cause and effect - rain is brought from condensation of water vapor."
Theist, "Where did the vapor come from?"
Atheist, "Water driven by heat of sunshine"
Theist, "And the sunshine?"
Atheist, "Nothing magical, sun shines through the fusion of hydrogen into helium"
Theist, "And where did the hydrogen come from?"
Atheist, "Nothing magical, hydrogen formed from the cooling of the Big Bang which enabled protons to catch electrons."
Theist, "And where did the Big Bang come from?"
Atheist, "It just happened."
Theist, "Like in magic?"
Atheist, "It's not magic, it just happened."

or

Atheist, "There is no evidence for King David in the bible"
Theist, "What are you saying?"
Atheist, "There was no King David"

wizanda said:

No not in the slightest, I'm only just on the basics of Ancient Hebrew, and since no one speaks it any more, it will take years to understand it fully.

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Then some humility and openness to correction might be in order.

Modern Hebrew with Masoretic points sounds nothing like what we find in the Bible.

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In general, I would trust a rabbi to know more about the differences between ancient and modern Hebrew as well as how to interpret ancient Hebrew more than I would trust you on the subject.

I'm saying some of the concepts of algebra that I'm generally showing from the Biblical equations, is all in sums, and then I'm told, "that isn't a sum, it has numbers instead of letters in maths".

In my opinion.

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Or you really were wrong in your interpretation.

wizanda said:

Isaiah 52:10 Yahweh has made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God.

Yeshuat Eloheinu = ישׁועת אלהינו = Salvation from our Divine Being.

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Thanks for the clarification. It still says that God is already the savior of the Jews.

wizanda said:

If Moses (Exodus 15:2), David (Psalms 118:14-21), then Isaiah (Isaiah 12:2, Isaiah 52:10) prophesied it, then it isn't retrofitting; it was already stated in Hebrew, people are just too argumentative to read & understand it all properly.

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There's no mention in this context of a future messiah being involved ─ God is hands-on, DIY, here. And it remains the case that (a) the promise attributed to God is made to the Jews, no one else, and (b) Jesus doesn't fit the description of a messiah anyway, eg he was never anointed by the Jewish priesthood.

As for purported prophecy, the explanation that any particular text exhibits supernatural foreknowledge is simply not on the map of possibilities. Any alternative real explanation is many orders of magnitude more probable.

wizanda said:

Which means mankind will soon wipe its self out in WW3 as it stated, as they don't listen unfortunately, and now you're also arguing it from their perspective too.

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Prophesying doom has always been a good seller. And humans have form when it comes to murderous wars, so that's hardly a difficult call.

What's lacking are specifics ─ names, dates, places, causes ─ but of course that takes it out of waffle's comfort zone.

wizanda said:

The Tanakh is item specific: Yahavah Elohim the Creator of reality is going to put its Spirit onto the Messiah (Isaiah 11:2) to perform mighty acts; those who go against it get condemned (Exodus 23:20-23).

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And not a peep about a messiah being involved.