Deuteronomy 13:1-6?

Good-Ole-Rebel · Oct 6, 2019

LAGoff said:
First respond to: "Deut.13:1-6?", then I may respond to Deut. 18.

OK. I agree with (Deut. 13:1-6)

Now....(Deut. 18).

Good-Ole-Rebel

74x12 · Oct 6, 2019

LAGoff said:
We are getting too far away from Deut.13:1-6.
You say Jesus saying Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day for my flesh is the real food; my blood the real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood lives in me and I live in him is symbolic. Fine. It still takes too much glory from Jehova (He's a jealous God!)-- ("I will raise him up on the last day"!)
This seems to be just the kind of scenario that Deut.13:1-6 is talking about.
Jehova is our King; Jehova will dispose of us as He sees fit; Jehova, Jehova, Jehova, not Jesus, not your rabbi, not even 'The Rebbe' (Menachem Mendel Schneersohn of Chabad)

What if Jesus is Jehovah? Why don't you consider the obvious?

74x12 · Oct 6, 2019

LAGoff said:
These six verses for me are spot on and lead me to reject Christianity, even verse 3 where I know you will say that it doesn't apply because Jesus never actually said "Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them," and he was probably talking about Jehova (though he only said my/our Father), but I read the Tora passage in light of what actually happened in real history where the vast majority of Christians are in effect worshiping/following other gods because they don't observe Jehova's laws and-- especially in the case of Catholic and Orthodox Christians -- they have added observances which clearly fall into the "which you have not known" category such as Trinity, eating pig (which is big in the Bible Belt, even on the Day of Atonement), shellfish, etc.(i.e. the ritual laws), Sunday worship, Mary veneration, communion (drinking Jesus' blood and body), infant baptism, etc..

1.Everything I command you that you shall be careful to do it. You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it.
2.If there will arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of a dream, and he gives you a sign or a wonder,
3.and the sign or the wonder of which he spoke to you happens, [and he] says, "Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them,"
4.you shall not heed the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream; for the Lord, your God, is testing you, to know whether you really love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul.
5.You shall follow the Lord, your God, fear Him, keep His commandments, heed His voice, worship Him, and cleave to Him.
6.And that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream shall be put to death; because he spoke falsehood about the Lord, your God Who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and Who redeemed you from the house of bondage, to lead you astray from the way in which the Lord, your God, commanded you to go; so shall you clear away the evil from your midst. Devarim - Deuteronomy - Chapter 13 (Parshah Re'eh)

The covenant with Moses was between the Hebrews and God. There were moral laws such as "thou shalt not kill" and ritually significant laws such as to abstain from pork. But, you can't expect gentiles who are not in the old Covenant to obey the ritual laws of that old Covenant. Would you judge a man from China or something who had never heard of Moses much less his law because he ate pork? Yet this man from China was morally in line with the Torah? He did not commit adultery. He did not murder. He loved his neighbor as himself?

Yet you say he is condemned because he ate a pig?

For all that; God continually promised a time when He would give a new Covenant to the house of Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34) and would give salvation to gentiles as well as Hebrews.

(Psalm 82:8) God would inherit all nations(goyim)
Isaiah 49:6 promise to the Messiah that He would be a light for the gentiles and salvation(Yshua!) to the ends of the earth.

LAGoff · Oct 6, 2019

74x12 said:
The covenant with Moses was between the Hebrews and God. There were moral laws such as "thou shalt not kill" and ritually significant laws such as to abstain from pork. But, you can't expect gentiles who are not in the old Covenant to obey the ritual laws of that old Covenant. Would you judge a man from China or something who had never heard of Moses much less his law because he ate pork? Yet this man from China was morally in line with the Torah? He did not commit adultery. He did not murder. He loved his neighbor as himself?

Yet you say he is condemned because he ate a pig?

I'm only talking about Christians who think they are the "New Israel" in a "New Covenant" in which the "old has passed away" and who think -- for good measure -- that actual Jews "are of their father the devil" and think Jesus's "blood is on the Jews hands forever."

Click to expand...

LAGoff · Oct 6, 2019

Desert Snake said:
The pre'existant aspect, which Jesus is associated with, in the New Testament.

This aspect isn't traditionally considered an angel, it's a god form.

So you are saying Deut.13 doesn't apply because Jesus is the word of God?
So 'the Word' said "eat my flesh and drink my blood"? This can't be justified from the OT, let alone the Tora.

LAGoff · Oct 6, 2019

Deeje said:
I am a Christian and I couldn't agree more. But you speak of Christendom...not Christianity. Never the twain shall meet according to my experience. Christendom is not the Christianity Jesus started. He did not come to start a new religion but to clean up the old one that had itself become corrupted.

My bad. In responding to the posts here, I now know that I can easily make my case by just what's written in the NT.
"I vant you tu eat my flesh and dreenk my bluuuud, and I vill give you eternal life."

74x12 · Oct 6, 2019

LAGoff said:
I'm only talking about Christians who think they are the "New Israel" in a "New Covenant" in which the "old has passed away" and who think -- for good measure -- that actual Jews "are of their father the devil" and think Jesus's "blood is on the Jews hands forever."

Well there is a new Covenant and true Christians(followers of the Christ, both Jew and gentile) are members of the real Israel which is Jesus Christ. Jesus is Israel. If you want to know the truth. Jacob is dead and they brought him out of Egypt alright. (Hosea 11:1) But only as a corpse to bury him in the promised land. (Genesis 50:1-7) But Jesus having died once; is alive for evermore. And when Jacob is resurrected(which he will be) it will be through Jesus Christ. (John 11:25) Which is why we know Jesus is the head of the body of the real Israel. That is the Israel that lives forever rather than the temporal one that dies. And when a baby is born his head comes out first of the womb as we all know. So then Jesus comes first into eternal life and the rest of Israel will follow. (Romans 8:19)

So I have nothing against Hebrews but if they aren't believing in Jesus they are clinging to what is temporal. They are metaphorically clinging to the corpse of old Jacob. Or they are living in his tomb. But why do they seek for the living among the dead? Or you could even say they are building their house on the sand. This temporal world is passing away. The Rock is eternal that people should build their house on.

The new Covenant is misunderstood by many people. All it really is; is life from the dead. That is the resurrection and the new Covenant are the same thing.

74x12 · Oct 6, 2019

LAGoff said:
My bad. In responding to the posts here, I now know that I can easily make my case by just what's written in the NT.
"I vant you tu eat my flesh and dreenk my bluuuud, and I vill give you eternal life."

Jesus spoke in metaphors and mysteries. But many could not understand as He said of them in Matthew 13:14 and Jesus said that those who don't understand the Word are like when the birds of the air come and take the seed out of their heart before it can grow. As Satan takes the word from people when they don't understand. This means the Word was made unfruitful by the lack of understanding it.

You don't seem to understand that to eat His flesh and drink His blood is to believe in what He was going to do on the cross. For He gives His body to be broken for the life of the world. Which is why He would call His body the bread of life. And He gives His blood to atone for the sins of the world. Which is why He would call it drink.

LAGoff · Oct 6, 2019

"But why do they seek for the living among the dead? Or you could even say they are building their house on the sand."

Jews seek only the living God (Jehova), not Jacob. Jews build their house only the Rock (Jehova), not sand.

I suppose you hold that God's Word is a separate person but one with God. (two members of the Trinity). That's an error I think can be made. I believe Philo the Jew from Alexandria 2000 years ago) got into that too deep, and there are people and sayings (Proverbs) that seem to go too far. What can you do? There are a lot of sayings (from the Midrash and the Zohar especially) and people among Jews that I don't hold with.
I choose (because I am commanded to) God being one. That means I will not split my devotion to a 'Word' and Jehova. "All [my] heart, soul, and might" cannot be given to Jehova any other way.

Click to expand...

74x12 · Oct 6, 2019

LAGoff said:
Jews seek only the living God (Jehova), not Jacob. Jews build their house only the Rock (Jehova), not sand.

I suppose you hold that God's Word is a separate person but one with God. (two members of the Trinity). That's an error I think can be made. I believe Philo the Jew from Alexandria 2000 years ago) got into that too deep, and there are people and sayings (Proverbs) that seem to go too far. What can you do? There are a lot of sayings (from the Midrash and the Zohar especially) and people among Jews that I don't hold with.
I choose (because I am commanded to) God being one. That means I will not split my devotion to a 'Word' and Jehova. "All [my] heart, soul, and might" cannot be given to Jehova any other way.

I could never bring myself to believe the trinity doctrine. Something in me is against the idea that God is more than one person. Perhaps you are the same.

To me God is one and the Word is not a separate person. God is only one person.

We humans form our words with our breath. God also uses His own breath to form His Words. But God doesn't breathe air. God's breath is from Himself; not the atmosphere. God's breath is His Spirit because God has life within Himself. Unlike us mortals who live by breathing the atmosphere.

So the Spirit of God forms the Word of God when He speaks. Just as we send out vibrations in the air to form sound by our vocal cords. God's Word is vibrations within His own holy Spirit.

In other words, (pun not intended) the Word of God is the Spirit of God sent out with purpose/direction to create or in some cases to destroy.

So through the Word of God or by the breath of His mouth; God created all things. (see Psalm 33:6)

Deeje · Oct 7, 2019

LAGoff said:
My bad. In responding to the posts here, I now know that I can easily make my case by just what's written in the NT.
"I vant you tu eat my flesh and dreenk my bluuuud, and I vill give you eternal life."

This has been explained to you already, his words were not literal......and if you want to be taken seriously here you will have to lift your game. You do not come across as being authentically Jewish to our Jewish posters here.....why is that do you think? :shrug:

Tumah · Oct 7, 2019

Jayhawker Soule said:
I'll accept the fact that you can't form a proper sentence but, if you intend to pose as a Torah expert, at least learn how to spell it.

I think you're barking up the wrong tree. If the prey was ever there, it's long gone.

Firemorphic · Oct 7, 2019

LAGoff said:
These six verses for me are spot on and lead me to reject Christianity, even verse 3 where I know you will say that it doesn't apply because Jesus never actually said "Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them," and he was probably talking about Jehova (though he only said my/our Father), but I read the Tora passage in light of what actually happened in real history where the vast majority of Christians are in effect worshiping/following other gods because they don't observe Jehova's laws and-- especially in the case of Catholic and Orthodox Christians -- they have added observances which clearly fall into the "which you have not known" category such as Trinity, eating pig (which is big in the Bible Belt, even on the Day of Atonement), shellfish, etc.(i.e. the ritual laws), Sunday worship, Mary veneration, communion (drinking Jesus' blood and body), infant baptism, etc..

1.Everything I command you that you shall be careful to do it. You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it.
2.If there will arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of a dream, and he gives you a sign or a wonder,
3.and the sign or the wonder of which he spoke to you happens, [and he] says, "Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them,"
4.you shall not heed the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream; for the Lord, your God, is testing you, to know whether you really love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul.
5.You shall follow the Lord, your God, fear Him, keep His commandments, heed His voice, worship Him, and cleave to Him.
6.And that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream shall be put to death; because he spoke falsehood about the Lord, your God Who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and Who redeemed you from the house of bondage, to lead you astray from the way in which the Lord, your God, commanded you to go; so shall you clear away the evil from your midst. Devarim - Deuteronomy - Chapter 13 (Parshah Re'eh)

While I do (naturally) accept Jesus as a prophet, I find (and I often actually quote those passages to Christians) myself that this passage of Devarim does beg for more humbleness from Christians in their proselytizing and antagonizing. Once you assume doctrines like "you can only be saved through Jesus and nothing else, not even HaShem", you set yourself up for massive logical errors and of course major ontological issues in the nature of one's theology.
Everything is always a matter of someone having a response to someone else's response or an alternative interpretation, and after all most of the New Testament itself is a polemic to justify taking an intercessor for God (when not interpreting Jesus' sayings as mystical, as they often clearly are), which is of course in stark contradiction from the Torah and rest of the Tanakh.

When it comes to Christian interpretation of the Tanakh, I see much of the time, them being very out of the water, trying their luck so-to-speak. Certainly though the very apocalyptic nature of Christianity and it's sense of imminence of the end times (as per the NT) is enough to bring in (at least from the textual point of the canonical NT itself) the possibly of Jesus being a false prophet, especially from a Toraic point of view.

Good-Ole-Rebel · Oct 7, 2019

Note that Jesus, when saying one must eat His flesh and drink His blood, offered no defense or explanation for that statement. (John 6:47-67)

It offended many, and many ceased to follow Him. He just let them go. Then asked His disciples, "Will you also go away?" (John 6:67)

Jesus Christ will always offend.

Good-Ole-Rebel

sooda · Oct 7, 2019

74x12 said:
The covenant with Moses was between the Hebrews and God. There were moral laws such as "thou shalt not kill" and ritually significant laws such as to abstain from pork. But, you can't expect gentiles who are not in the old Covenant to obey the ritual laws of that old Covenant. Would you judge a man from China or something who had never heard of Moses much less his law because he ate pork? Yet this man from China was morally in line with the Torah? He did not commit adultery. He did not murder. He loved his neighbor as himself?

Yet you say he is condemned because he ate a pig?

For all that; God continually promised a time when He would give a new Covenant to the house of Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34) and would give salvation to gentiles as well as Hebrews.

(Psalm 82:8) God would inherit all nations(goyim)
Isaiah 49:6 promise to the Messiah that He would be a light for the gentiles and salvation(Yshua!) to the ends of the earth.

Isaiah 49:6 is about Israel being a light unto the gentiles.. No mention of the messiah.

wizanda · Oct 7, 2019

sooda said:
Isaiah 49:6 is about Israel being a light unto the gentiles.. No mention of the messiah.

Isaiah 49:6 Indeed, he says, “It is too light a thing that you should be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel? I will also give you as a light to the nations, that you may be my salvation (H3444 = Yeshua) to the end of the earth.”

The person spoken of in Isaiah 46:9 brings in Israel, so they can't be Israel, and Bring Israel back at the same time.... All prophecy says God, and the Messiah bring Israel back.

This is specifically about the Salvation of God (H3444) interacting with mankind.

H3444 (Yeshua) + H1961 (To become) = Exodus 15:2, Psalms 118:14-21, Isaiah 12:2 (2 Samuel 10:11 David Vs Ammon) +5 Verses Isaiah

H3444 (Yeshua) + H7200 (To see) = Exodus 14:13, Psalms 98:3, Isaiah 52:10 (2 Chronicles 20:17 Jehoshaphat Vs Ammon)

This is one of the '+5 verses search results in Isaiah', that define two of the supposed servant songs as being about the Salvation of God (Yeshua H3444), and the others therefore specifically about the Messiah's suffering.

In my opinion.

sooda · Oct 7, 2019

wizanda said:
Isaiah 49:6 Indeed, he says, “It is too light a thing that you should be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel? I will also give you as a light to the nations, that you may be my salvation (H3444 = Yeshua) to the end of the earth.”

The person spoken of in Isaiah 46:9 brings in Israel, so they can't be Israel, and Bring Israel back at the same time.... All prophecy says God, and the Messiah bring Israel back.

This is specifically about the Salvation of God (H3444) interacting with mankind.

H3444 (Yeshua) + H1961 (To become) = Exodus 15:2, Psalms 118:14-21, Isaiah 12:2 (2 Samuel 10:11 David Vs Ammon) +5 Verses Isaiah

H3444 (Yeshua) + H7200 (To see) = Exodus 14:13, Psalms 98:3, Isaiah 52:10 (2 Chronicles 20:17 Jehoshaphat Vs Ammon)

This is one of the '+5 verses search results in Isaiah', that define two of the supposed servant songs as being about the Salvation of God (Yeshua H3444), and the others therefore specifically about the Messiah's suffering.

In my opinion.

Israel is God's servant.. Israel is also called harlot, Sodom ..

sooda · Oct 7, 2019

74x12 said:
Well there is a new Covenant and true Christians(followers of the Christ, both Jew and gentile) are members of the real Israel which is Jesus Christ. Jesus is Israel. If you want to know the truth. Jacob is dead and they brought him out of Egypt alright. (Hosea 11:1) But only as a corpse to bury him in the promised land. (Genesis 50:1-7) But Jesus having died once; is alive for evermore. And when Jacob is resurrected(which he will be) it will be through Jesus Christ. (John 11:25) Which is why we know Jesus is the head of the body of the real Israel. That is the Israel that lives forever rather than the temporal one that dies. And when a baby is born his head comes out first of the womb as we all know. So then Jesus comes first into eternal life and the rest of Israel will follow. (Romans 8:19)

So I have nothing against Hebrews but if they aren't believing in Jesus they are clinging to what is temporal. They are metaphorically clinging to the corpse of old Jacob. Or they are living in his tomb. But why do they seek for the living among the dead? Or you could even say they are building their house on the sand. This temporal world is passing away. The Rock is eternal that people should build their house on.

The new Covenant is misunderstood by many people. All it really is; is life from the dead. That is the resurrection and the new Covenant are the same thing.

Hosea 11:1 is about Israel.. Israel is God's son that he loves and brought out of Egypt.. Its a reference to the Exodus. Jesus was never in Egypt. Matthew made that up.

Wandering Monk · Oct 7, 2019

74x12 said:
Well there is a new Covenant and true Christians(followers of the Christ, both Jew and gentile) are members of the real Israel which is Jesus Christ. Jesus is Israel. If you want to know the truth. Jacob is dead and they brought him out of Egypt alright. (Hosea 11:1) But only as a corpse to bury him in the promised land. (Genesis 50:1-7) But Jesus having died once; is alive for evermore. And when Jacob is resurrected(which he will be) it will be through Jesus Christ. (John 11:25) Which is why we know Jesus is the head of the body of the real Israel. That is the Israel that lives forever rather than the temporal one that dies. And when a baby is born his head comes out first of the womb as we all know. So then Jesus comes first into eternal life and the rest of Israel will follow. (Romans 8:19)

So I have nothing against Hebrews but if they aren't believing in Jesus they are clinging to what is temporal. They are metaphorically clinging to the corpse of old Jacob. Or they are living in his tomb. But why do they seek for the living among the dead? Or you could even say they are building their house on the sand. This temporal world is passing away. The Rock is eternal that people should build their house on.

The new Covenant is misunderstood by many people. All it really is; is life from the dead. That is the resurrection and the new Covenant are the same thing.

No, they are not. Read about the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31 thru 34. No mention of resurrection.

SA Huguenot · Oct 7, 2019

LAGoff said:
The most high God (El Elyon) has a personal name (Jehova-- aka 'Lord' in English). The world now can know more fully this than in those days when God's name was nearly unknown.
And how many ways can the OT say Jehova is one/no One beside Him, I will not share my glory with another-- and Jesus is 'another' (certainly another [personal] name)? (El, El Elyon is just a generic name for God, whereas Yeshua is a specific, personal name and so definitely in Christianity and the NT shares glory with Jehova, who is a jealous God, hence the command us to kill ones like him.

I think you have the idea that YHWH is a God who is far removed from this world and is a single being, whilst I am sure that God consists of the "Existance" or the Father, the "Spirit", and the "Word" or mind of God.
This is one being, and not 3 beings.
I am a Christian, and I believe God to be what we call a Trinity.
I will never believe in a polyistic God, because the OT say I should not make any god equal to YHWH.
Yet, I do know that the Holy Spirit of YHWH can leave the existance of YHWH and hover above the water when God created the world.
I also know that Yhavehashua is the "Word" of God which means, the Mind of God.
And this Mind of God came to earth and became a man to die like a man, and again ascended into heaven to return to YHWH as HIS Mind.
Now, untill anyone can prove to me that YHWH does not have a Spirit that can create, or has no Mind that became a man, I will continue to worship YHWH, His Spirit and His Word.
Again, I will never believe Jesus to be another "God" equal to YHWH, no, He is YHWH!

Deuteronomy 13:1-6?

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