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Why did the world reject the Messiah when He Did come?

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
No, it says nothing until people read it and interpret it. A book just sits on pages until people read it and interpret it.

That is completely illogical to say that it says what it says If it said what it says then people would not interpret it differently. To say that it says what it says is the same as saying "I know what it says and you don't" and that is arrogant. Why can't people understand that is totally beyond my comprehension. Such is the power of the human ego. It is really sad. :(
A book wasn't just sitting there. Supposedly, the disciples knew what Jesus said and what he meant. Supposedly, the Holy Spirit gave them the correct interpretation. Then, supposedly, people wrote down accurately what all the stories about what Jesus said and did. Then, Christians appointed leaders to make sure no heretical beliefs would change the supposed true meaning and interpretation of those words. Then, when there was a question, those leaders met together and decided what the true and correct interpretation of the words were. Now that the true interpretation was established the leaders of the Church made sure no one changed it.

So, obviously, there was no room for any error to creep in and mess up the interpretation... right?
 

sooda

Veteran Member
You cannot address what I said can you? You are so arrogant you cannot even understand that other people can have other interpretations of the same scriptures, and you don't even see anything wrong with that. What is the point of even having a discussion on a forum? You think you can separate Jesus from the OT, that is a joke in and of itself. I do not know much, but I know that Jesus was prophesied in the OT.

Where in the OT? Not in Isaiah and not in Hosea unless you change the words.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
What is the reference where Isaiah calls Mt. Carmel the “mountain of the Lord,” to which “all nations shall flow.”? I truly hope that Baha'is are not taking references to Mt. Zion, Jerusalem, and transferring them to Mt. Carmel. But, I wouldn't put it passed them.
The Baha'is do not have to do anything, God already did it and it is self-evident to anyone who does not suffer from confirmation bias. Unfortunately, that is almost everyone.

Continue your vendetta against the Baha'is, it won't make any difference, because the promises of God have been fulfilled by Baha'u'llah.

We do not have to transfer anything, because there is no such "place" as Mt. Zion.

Mount Zion’s Meaning


The word “mount” is simply a shortened meaning of mountain and mountains often refer to governments or nations but often is referred to in Scripture as “the mountain of the Lord, to the Rock of Israel” (Isaiah 30:29b). In the case of Mount Zion it is representative of the Kingdom of God where we read in Hebrews 12:22 that “you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering.” That is where it is said “the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all” (Heb 12:23) will be at and it looks ahead to the New Jerusalem that will descend out of heaven (Rev 21:10-26).
What Is Zion and The Biblical Meaning? What Is Mount Zion In The Bible?

The government of the Baha'i Faith, the Universal House of Justice (UHJ) is located on Mt. Carmel.

Isaiah 2:2-3 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

“The time foreordained unto the peoples and kindreds of the earth is now come. The promises of God, as recorded in the holy Scriptures, have all been fulfilled. Out of Zion hath gone forth the Law of God, and Jerusalem, and the hills and land thereof, are filled with the glory of His Revelation. Happy is the man that pondereth in his heart that which hath been revealed in the Books of God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Meditate upon this, O ye beloved of God, and let your ears be attentive unto His Word, so that ye may, by His grace and mercy, drink your fill from the crystal waters of constancy, and become as steadfast and immovable as the mountain in His Cause.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 12-13
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
A book wasn't just sitting there. Supposedly, the disciples knew what Jesus said and what he meant. Supposedly, the Holy Spirit gave them the correct interpretation.
But the disciples did not write the NT and you know that as well as I do.
Then, supposedly, people wrote down accurately what all the stories about what Jesus said and did. Then, Christians appointed leaders to make sure no heretical beliefs would change the supposed true meaning and interpretation of those words. Then, when there was a question, those leaders met together and decided what the true and correct interpretation of the words were. Now that the true interpretation was established the leaders of the Church made sure no one changed it.
What gave them authority to interpret the NT? Jesus did not give them any authority and the disciples did not give them any authority. They just took it upon themselves.
So, obviously, there was no room for any error to creep in and mess up the interpretation... right?
No, obviously they interpreted it incorrectly because anyone who can read knows that Jesus was not God in the flesh and God is not three persons in one.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Where in the OT? Not in Isaiah and not in Hosea unless you change the words.
Do you mean where was Jesus prophesied? Do you really think that the OT would name Jesus by name?

“The Book of Isaiah announces that the Messiah will conquer the East and the West, and all nations of the world will come under His shadow, that His Kingdom will be established, that He will come from an unknown place, that the sinners will be judged, and that justice will prevail to such a degree that the wolf and the lamb, the leopard and the kid, the sucking child and the asp, shall all gather at one spring, and in one meadow, and one dwelling. 4 The first coming was also under these conditions, though outwardly none of them came to pass. Therefore, the Jews rejected Christ, and, God forbid! called the Messiah masíkh, 5 considered Him to be the destroyer of the edifice of God, regarded Him as the breaker of the Sabbath and the Law, and sentenced Him to death. Nevertheless, each one of these conditions had a signification that the Jews did not understand; therefore, they were debarred from perceiving the truth of Christ.” Some Answered Questions, p. 111
 

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
I truly hope that Baha'is are not taking references to Mt. Zion, Jerusalem, and transferring them to Mt. Carmel. But, I wouldn't put it passed them.

We do not have to transfer anything, because there is no such "place" as Mt. Zion.

Uhhh, ... somebody doesn't have a Google map app, do they.

Mount Zion-1.jpg
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
The Baha'is do not have to do anything, God already did it and it is self-evident to anyone who does not suffer from confirmation bias. Unfortunately, that is almost everyone.

Continue your vendetta against the Baha'is, it won't make any difference, because the promises of God have been fulfilled by Baha'u'llah.

We do not have to transfer anything, because there is no such "place" as Mt. Zion.

Mount Zion’s Meaning


The word “mount” is simply a shortened meaning of mountain and mountains often refer to governments or nations but often is referred to in Scripture as “the mountain of the Lord, to the Rock of Israel” (Isaiah 30:29b). In the case of Mount Zion it is representative of the Kingdom of God where we read in Hebrews 12:22 that “you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering.” That is where it is said “the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all” (Heb 12:23) will be at and it looks ahead to the New Jerusalem that will descend out of heaven (Rev 21:10-26).
What Is Zion and The Biblical Meaning? What Is Mount Zion In The Bible?

The government of the Baha'i Faith, the Universal House of Justice (UHJ) is located on Mt. Carmel.

Isaiah 2:2-3 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of
But the disciples did not write the NT and you know that as well as I do.
What gave them authority to interpret the NT? Jesus did not give them any authority and the disciples did not give them any authority. They just took it upon themselves.

No, obviously they interpreted it incorrectly because anyone who can read knows that Jesus was not God in the flesh and God is not three persons in one.


“The time foreordained unto the peoples and kindreds of the earth is now come. The promises of God, as recorded in the holy Scriptures, have all been fulfilled. Out of Zion hath gone forth the Law of God, and Jerusalem, and the hills and land thereof, are filled with the glory of His Revelation. Happy is the man that pondereth in his heart that which hath been revealed in the Books of God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Meditate upon this, O ye beloved of God, and let your ears be attentive unto His Word, so that ye may, by His grace and mercy, drink your fill from the crystal waters of constancy, and become as steadfast and immovable as the mountain in His Cause.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 12-13
Of course your definition is the right one. I should just quit this vendetta. I don't know why I bother pasting this in. It is obviously in error.
"The word Zion can refer to the mountain on which the city for Zion sits. That is the message of Psalm 2:6.

But as for Me, I have installed My King
Upon Zion, My holy mountain.
Psalm 2:6 (NASB)

This verse reveals that Zion is a mountain. It is called holy because Christ will reign as King in the city some day. The city of Jerusalem was originally built on the mountain. Jerusalem has expanded and now sits on four hills (Mt. Zion, Mt. of Olives, Mt. Moriah and Mt. Scopus), with valleys between. The city itself sits about 2,500 ft (762m) above sea level.

The Mount of Olives is on the east side of Jerusalem. If one was to look to the west from the Mount of Olives, one would see Mount Moriah on which sits the Temple Mount. Between these two hills is the Kidron Valley. Continuing to the west of the Temple Mount is Mount Zion. Mount Zion was the largest hill on which the city of Jerusalem was built. This explains why it is called the “Upper Hill.” To the south of Mount Zion lies the Valley of Hinnom. Beyond the Hinnom Valley are the newer parts of Jerusalem. The fourth hill is called Mount Scopus and it is to the north of the Mount of Olives."
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
But the disciples did not write the NT and you know that as well as I do.

What gave them authority to interpret the NT? Jesus did not give them any authority and the disciples did not give them any authority. They just took it upon themselves.

No, obviously they interpreted it incorrectly because anyone who can read knows that Jesus was not God in the flesh and God is not three persons in one.
Did the disciples know the writers? Did John write the fourth gospel? Interpret? It's a story about what Jesus said and did. What do you need to interpret? Oh, of course did he come back to life. Is he coming back? Is there a Satan? Yes, we don't want to believe those things literally, so let's interpret them. And, you know what, a lot of people back in those days were illiterate. I'll bet you it was them that made Jesus God in the flesh. The NT would never say such a thing. By the way, do you have a vendetta against traditional Christian beliefs?
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Of course your definition is the right one. I should just quit this vendetta. I don't know why I bother pasting this in. It is obviously in error.
"The word Zion can refer to the mountain on which the city for Zion sits. That is the message of Psalm 2:6.

But as for Me, I have installed My King
Upon Zion, My holy mountain.
Psalm 2:6 (NASB)

Given those passages, is there any sound reason why Carmel is not also Zion?

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Thanks Terry. But you know how these things go... whatever the Baha'i Faith says is what is the truth. No matter how many contortions a person has to go through to make them work. I really, really don't know why they can't just plainly say that they don't believe in the Bible.

"The name Mount Zion referred successively to three locations, as Jerusalemites preserved the time-honoured name, but shifted the location they venerated as the focal point of biblical Jerusalem to the site considered most appropriate in their own time."

That the location of Zion is now Mt Carmel is a great challenge for many people. What are they looking for?

God does, as God so chooses.

Regards Tony
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Mount Zion description by trailblazer was quite reasonable to me.

Mount Zion - Wikipedia

Just because a hill has been named this, does not negate what trailblazer offered.

Regards Tony
And where in your reference does it say that Mt. Carmel is Mt. Zion? Please stop twisting things just to pretend that everything in every religion fits into the Baha'i interpretation of spiritual reality. You have many fine beliefs. Why muck it up with trying to prove every little thing points to Baha'u'llah?

Oh wait, I have more muck my self. Zechariah 14:4 "On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south."

Oh no, so sorry. But not only do you have to make Mt. Zion into Mt. Carmel, but now the Mt. of Olives too. But that should not be a problem. All you need to do is say the word "symbolic". The magic eraser for all the things in the Bible that contradicts the Baha'i Faith.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
And where in your reference does it say that Mt. Carmel is Mt. Zion? Please stop twisting things just to pretend that everything in every religion fits into the Baha'i interpretation of spiritual reality. You have many fine beliefs. Why muck it up with trying to prove every little thing points to Baha'u'llah?

Oh wait, I have more muck my self. Zechariah 14:4 "On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south."

Oh no, so sorry. But not only do you have to make Mt. Zion into Mt. Carmel, but now the Mt. of Olives too. But that should not be a problem. All you need to do is say the word "symbolic". The magic eraser for all the things in the Bible that contradicts the Baha'i Faith.

I am happy for you to see It as you choose to CG.

It all has meaning. Micah 4 says it all.

Regards Tony
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
"So what?" yourself. Next time you plan on saying something silly, like:

consider thinking about what you're going to say first and maybe you won't have to pretend you didn't say something silly.
I have no false pride so I do not care what people think of me.
I only care what God thinks of me.

The article I got my information from was
What Is Zion and The Biblical Meaning? What Is Mount Zion In The Bible?

The geographical location of Mt. Zion is totally irrelevant.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
And where in your reference does it say that Mt. Carmel is Mt. Zion? Please stop twisting things just to pretend that everything in every religion fits into the Baha'i interpretation of spiritual reality. You have many fine beliefs. Why muck it up with trying to prove every little thing points to Baha'u'llah?

Oh wait, I have more muck my self. Zechariah 14:4 "On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south."

Oh no, so sorry. But not only do you have to make Mt. Zion into Mt. Carmel, but now the Mt. of Olives too. But that should not be a problem. All you need to do is say the word "symbolic". The magic eraser for all the things in the Bible that contradicts the Baha'i Faith.
We Baha'is do not have to make anything into anything and these details do not matter...

ALL that matters is if Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God, the return of Christ and the Messiah, or not...
Do you know anything about logic?


If Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be, then YES, every little thing does point to Him...
If Baha'u'llah was not who He claimed to be then He was a false prophet, a liar or a delusional man.

After all these years, I would think you would have decided which to believe.

You cannot disprove Baha'u'llah with small details from Bible verses from a Bible that is not inerrant...
But good luck trying, what a waste of a human life.
You have no interest in knowing the truth about God. All you care about is attacking the Baha'is.
I find that rather sad. :(
 
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