• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Why did the world reject the Messiah when He Did come?

sooda

Veteran Member
How is Isaiah 53 about the people of Israel?

I believe that this chapter is about Jesus and Baha'u'llah, and there are many other chapters like it.
Why do you think it says "he", "him" and "a man?"

It is very clear how most of this chapter and many others are is about Baha'u'llah; if you know the history of the Baha'i Faith. it is self-evident.

Isaiah 53 King James Version (KJV)

53 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

HE is Israel... Why would you insert Jesus or Bahaullah?

Don't fiddle around with scripture.

Hosea 11:1

Same thing here;

When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt. Israel. Hosea 2:15 And I will give her her vineyards from thence, and the valley of Achor for a door of hope: and she shall sing there, as in the days of her youth, and as in the day when she came up out of the land of Egypt.


"The theme of Isaiah is jubilation, a song of celebration at the imminent end of the Babylonian Captivity ".
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
HE is Israel... Why would you insert Jesus or Bahaullah?

Don't fiddle around with scripture.
No, the scripture does not SAY Israel. Why would you insert Israel?

I can see how parts of Isaiah 41, 44, 45, 48 and 49 are about the nation of Israel, but not Isaiah 53.

“The rabbinic interpretation of Isaiah 53 fits in seamlessly with its surrounding chapters which all clearly depict the nation of Israel as “despised, afflicted” (54:6-11), and oppressed “without cause” (52:4) at the hands of the gentile nations.”
Who is God’s Suffering Servant? The Rabbinic Interpretation of Isaiah 53

No, it was not without cause. Nothing happens that is not God’s Will. It was at the Hands of God that they suffered, but it is over now, and the Jews have been allowed to return to their homeland as per the Edict of Toleration 1844

The Jews suffered because they turned away from Jesus Christ, the Face of God Himself, simply because He did not fulfill all the prophecies for the Messiah and He did not keep all their Laws. It is true that Jesus did not fulfill the prophecies for the “ends times Messiah” but nevertheless Jesus was a Manifestation of God who came to prepare the way for the Messiah, a very important link in the chain.

Both the Christians and the Jews think they “own” the Messiah, but the Messiah did not come to vindicate or exalt any one people or religion, He came to save the entire world.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
No, the scripture does not SAY Israel. Why would you insert Israel?

I can see how parts of Isaiah 41, 44, 45, 48 and 49 are about the nation of Israel, but not Isaiah 53.

“The rabbinic interpretation of Isaiah 53 fits in seamlessly with its surrounding chapters which all clearly depict the nation of Israel as “despised, afflicted” (54:6-11), and oppressed “without cause” (52:4) at the hands of the gentile nations.”
Who is God’s Suffering Servant? The Rabbinic Interpretation of Isaiah 53

No, it was not without cause. Nothing happens that is not God’s Will. It was at the Hands of God that they suffered, but it is over now, and the Jews have been allowed to return to their homeland as per the Edict of Toleration 1844

The Jews suffered because they turned away from Jesus Christ, the Face of God Himself, simply because He did not fulfill all the prophecies for the Messiah and He did not keep all their Laws. It is true that Jesus did not fulfill the prophecies for the “ends times Messiah” but nevertheless Jesus was a Manifestation of God who came to prepare the way for the Messiah, a very important link in the chain.

Both the Christians and the Jews think they “own” the Messiah, but the Messiah did not come to vindicate or exalt any one people or religion, He came to save the entire world.

Read ALL of Isaiah.. The Servant Song is all about Israel, the servant of God.. The Jews expected an anointed warrior king like David who would vanquish their enemies.

Jesus was never despised of men.. By all accounts people followed him to hear him speak. Jesus is Jesus.. He is NOT in the OT.. Isaiah didn't write about him nor did Hosea or Daniel. Jesus can stand on his own.. you don't have to gild the lily.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
This is all very simple.
Just write what you mean.
It's best to write exactly what you mean.

I did write exactly what I meant to say. The context I used men in, means all humans of all races, it is a correct use of the word. (Men = Mankind)

I see a person could use that as a lesson, that a person finds what they want to find, if a person has a preconceived agenda in mind.

I think I have now written exactly what I mean. :)

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Deity of Jesus
  1. Jesus
    1. "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am," (John 8:58). Compare with Exodus 3:14, "And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, "I AM has sent me to you."
  2. Paul
    1. "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form," (Col. 2:9). See also, Phil. 2:5-8

This is the station of all God Messengers this is 'Christ'.

It is not the flesh of Jesus. The flesh amounts to nothing, it is the Spirit that gives life.

Jesus, the flesh body, was Annointed of the Holy Spirit. That same Spirit 'Christ' (Annointed) is all Gods Mesenegers. They are all born of the Holy Spirit. That is the meaning of the virgin birth.

Names are a veil as Baha'u'llah means 'Glory of God' or 'Glory of the Lord', who is 'Christ' (Annointed) returned as the Father.

Jesus said he who has seen Christ in Him, has seen the Father.

When God sends His Messengers, mankind has forgotten how to look for the fruits, forgotten Christ.

Regards Tony
 
Last edited:

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Read ALL of Isaiah.. The Servant Song is all about Israel, the servant of God.. The Jews expected an anointed warrior king like David who would vanquish their enemies.
The Jews can expect whatever they want to expect, but the Messiah they have made in their own image by misinterpreting their scripture is not coming to restore the nation of Israel and return them to their previous status of the "chosen ones" of God. The chosen ones are the ones who "choose" to recognize the Manifestations of God when they appear, and since the Jews have turned away from four Manifestations of God since the time of Moses, you can do the math..
Jesus was never despised of men.. By all accounts people followed him to hear him speak. Jesus is Jesus.. He is NOT in the OT.. Isaiah didn't write about him nor did Hosea or Daniel. Jesus can stand on his own.. you don't have to gild the lily.
Maybe you are right, Jesus was not despised of men, He was only despised by the Jews who sent Him to the cross. But Baha'u'llah was despised of men and He was written about throughout the OT and also referenced in the NT, in John 14, 15 and 16.
Jesus was prophesied in the OT, but I am not going to try to parse out which prophecies refer to Jesus and which ones refer to Baha'u'llah.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
The Jews can expect whatever they want to expect, but the Messiah they have made in their own image by misinterpreting their scripture is not coming to restore the nation of Israel and return them to their previous status of the "chosen ones" of God. The chosen ones are the ones who "choose" to recognize the Manifestations of God when they appear, and since the Jews have turned away from four Manifestations of God since the time of Moses, you can do the math..

Maybe you are right, Jesus was not despised of men, He was only despised by the Jews who sent Him to the cross. But Baha'u'llah was despised of men and He was written about throughout the OT and also referenced in the NT, in John 14, 15 and 16.
Jesus was prophesied in the OT, but I am not going to try to parse out which prophecies refer to Jesus and which ones refer to Baha'u'llah.

The Jews WROTE the scriptures.. How could they get them wrong?

Neither Jesus nor Bahaullah nor Muhammed are mentioned in the OT. Can't you believe in Bahaullah without fiddling with the Old Testament?
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I've provided enough scriptural evidence from the New Testament in my previous two posts to you that Jesus is divine (Jehovah). And you want more that you can kick to the curb? Whistle for it.

Don't miss the forest for the trees.

Do not see the Forrest as the universe

Matthew 19:17"And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."

John 1:18"No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

The Christ Spirit in Jesus is all we can know of God, but that Spirit is not the Essence of God, it is the Essence of the Messengers.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The Jews WROTE the scriptures.. How could they get them wrong?

Neither Jesus nor Bahaullah nor Muhammed are mentioned in the OT. Can't you believe in Bahaullah without fiddling with the Old Testament?

I personally see they are seen in the prophecy written in the Tanakh. Prophecy which was received by God's Prophets and recorded as God so willed.

Regards Tony
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The Jews WROTE the scriptures.. How could they get them wrong?
I never said that the Jews wrote them wrong, I said they have interpreted them wrong, or do you think that there is only one correct interpretation of scriptures? There are many different interpretations, so why do you think the Jews interpreted them correctly? If they had interpreted them correctly, they would have recognized Jesus as a Prophet/Manifestation of God, so that is one way we can KNOW that they did not interpret them correctly.
Neither Jesus nor Bahaullah nor Muhammed are mentioned in the OT. Can't you believe in Bahaullah without fiddling with the Old Testament?
I do not have to fiddle with the OT. Baha'u'llah means Glory of God in Arabic:
Glossary of Arabic and Persian terms - Bahaipedia, an encyclopedia about the Bahá’í Faith

So Baha'u'llah was mentioned throughout the OT. For example:

Isaiah 35:2 It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, and the excellency of our God.

Isaiah 40:5 And the Glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of God hath spoken it.


"In that same year (1890) Bahá’u’lláh’s tent, the “Tabernacle of Glory,” was raised on Mt. Carmel, “the Hill of God and His Vineyard,” the home of Elijah, extolled by Isaiah as the “mountain of the Lord,” to which “all nations shall flow.” Four times He visited Haifa, His last visit being no less than three months long. In the course of one of these visits, when His tent was pitched in the vicinity of the Carmelite Monastery, He, the “Lord of the Vineyard,” revealed the Tablet of Carmel, remarkable for its allusions and prophecies. On another occasion He pointed out Himself to ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, as He stood on the slopes of that mountain, the site which was to serve as the permanent resting-place of the Báb, and on which a befitting mausoleum was later to be erected." (God Passes By, p. 194)

Both Jesus and Baha'u'llah were prophesied in the OT, and there are also some prophecies that refer to Muhammad. All one has to do is look at the prophecies that were fulfilled and see HOW they were fulfilled in actual history order to know who they refer to.
William Sears, Thief in the Night
 

sooda

Veteran Member
I never said that the Jews wrote them wrong, I said they have interpreted them wrong, or do you think that there is only one correct interpretation of scriptures? There are many different interpretations, so why do you think the Jews interpreted them correctly? If they had interpreted them correctly, they would have recognized Jesus as a Prophet/Manifestation of God, so that is one way we can KNOW that they did not interpret them correctly.

I do not have to fiddle with the OT. Baha'u'llah means Glory of God in Arabic:
Glossary of Arabic and Persian terms - Bahaipedia, an encyclopedia about the Bahá’í Faith

So Baha'u'llah was mentioned throughout the OT. For example:

Isaiah 35:2 It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, and the excellency of our God.

Isaiah 40:5 And the Glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of God hath spoken it.


"In that same year (1890) Bahá’u’lláh’s tent, the “Tabernacle of Glory,” was raised on Mt. Carmel, “the Hill of God and His Vineyard,” the home of Elijah, extolled by Isaiah as the “mountain of the Lord,” to which “all nations shall flow.” Four times He visited Haifa, His last visit being no less than three months long. In the course of one of these visits, when His tent was pitched in the vicinity of the Carmelite Monastery, He, the “Lord of the Vineyard,” revealed the Tablet of Carmel, remarkable for its allusions and prophecies. On another occasion He pointed out Himself to ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, as He stood on the slopes of that mountain, the site which was to serve as the permanent resting-place of the Báb, and on which a befitting mausoleum was later to be erected." (God Passes By, p. 194)

Both Jesus and Baha'u'llah were prophesied in the OT, and there are also some prophecies that refer to Muhammad. All one has to do is look at the prophecies that were fulfilled and see HOW they were fulfilled in actual history order to know who they refer to.
William Sears, Thief in the Night

They wrote the OT why would they "interpret" it wrong?
 

sooda

Veteran Member
The Jews who wrote it are not the same Jews who are interpreting it today.

Nothing has changed about Isaiah or Daniel or Hosea.. It says what it says .. no interpretation needed.

Daniel. in the lions dens is merely a legendary story.
In a Neo-Assyrian letter from an ousted court official named Urad-Gula to King Ashurbanipal, Urad-Gula asks for financial assistance and, in the course of this request, describes the royal court metaphorically as a den or pit of lions.

As with our contemporary use, then, this ancient letter employs the lions’ den as a metaphor for mean colleagues or wicked competitors.

‘Daniel’ didn’t exist. The story is full of inaccuracies for the background on which it is written. It’s probably based on an earlier hero.

The 'prophecies' in Daniel are a record of the Maccabean Period - written at the time.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
The flesh amounts to nothing, it is the Spirit that gives life.
The New Living Translation says it like this, "The Spirit alone gives eternal life. Human effort accomplishes nothing." A Greek translation says it like this, " τὸ πνεῦμά ἐστιν τὸ ζῳοποιοῦν, ἡ σὰρξ οὐκ ὠφελεῖ οὐδέν · τὰ ῥήματα ἃ ἐγὼ λελάληκα ὑμῖν πνεῦμά ἐστιν καὶ ζωή ἐστιν."

That is definitely Greek to me. But still, you quote this one verse all the time. One verse taken out of context to prove anything you want. What if the real translation isn't what you want it to be?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Nothing has changed about Isaiah or Daniel or Hosea.. It says what it says .. no interpretation needed..
No, it says nothing until people read it and interpret it. A book just sits on pages until people read it and interpret it.

That is completely illogical to say that it says what it says If it said what it says then people would not interpret it differently. To say that it says what it says is the same as saying "I know what it says and you don't" and that is arrogant. Why can't people understand that is totally beyond my comprehension. Such is the power of the human ego. It is really sad. :(
 

sooda

Veteran Member
No, it says nothing until people read it and interpret it. A book just sits on pages until people read it and interpret it.

That is completely illogical to say that it says what it says If it said what it says then people would not interpret it differently. To say that it says what it says is the same as saying "I know what it says and you don't" and that is arrogant. Why can't people understand that is totally beyond my comprehension. Such is the power of the human ego. It is really sad. :(

Just read it.. and read some ancient history. Its not that difficult.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The New Living Translation says it like this, "The Spirit alone gives eternal life. Human effort accomplishes nothing." A Greek translation says it like this, " τὸ πνεῦμά ἐστιν τὸ ζῳοποιοῦν, ἡ σὰρξ οὐκ ὠφελεῖ οὐδέν · τὰ ῥήματα ἃ ἐγὼ λελάληκα ὑμῖν πνεῦμά ἐστιν καὶ ζωή ἐστιν."

That is definitely Greek to me. But still, you quote this one verse all the time. One verse taken out of context to prove anything you want. What if the real translation isn't what you want it to be?

Means the same to me Greek or translated from Greek.

This is another's view

http://blog.adw.org/2013/01/what-is-does-scripture-mean-by-the-flesh/

Regards Tony
 
Last edited:

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Just read it.. and read some ancient history. Its not that difficult.
You cannot address what I said can you? You are so arrogant you cannot even understand that other people can have other interpretations of the same scriptures, and you don't even see anything wrong with that. What is the point of even having a discussion on a forum? You think you can separate Jesus from the OT, that is a joke in and of itself. I do not know much, but I know that Jesus was prophesied in the OT.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Mt. Carmel, “the Hill of God and His Vineyard,” the home of Elijah, extolled by Isaiah as the “mountain of the Lord,” to which “all nations shall flow.”
What is the reference where Isaiah calls Mt. Carmel the “mountain of the Lord,” to which “all nations shall flow.”? I truly hope that Baha'is are not taking references to Mt. Zion, Jerusalem, and transferring them to Mt. Carmel. But, I wouldn't put it passed them.
 
Top