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Saved By Grace Or Saved By Works?

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
.

EVIDENCE FOR GRACE

Romans 11:6
6 And if he chose them by grace, then it is not what they have done that made them his people. If they could be made his people by what they did, his gift of grace would not really be a gift.

Titus 3:5
5 He saved us because of his mercy, not because of any good things we did. He saved us through the washing that made us new people. He saved us by making us new through the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 I mean that you have been saved by grace because you believed. You did not save yourselves; it was a gift from God. 9 You are not saved by the things you have done, so there is nothing to boast about.

__________________________________________________________________________
__________________________________________________________________________
EVIDENCE FOR WORKS

Romans 2: 4-11
4 God has been kind to you. He has been very patient, waiting for you to change. But you think nothing of his kindness. Maybe you don’t understand that God is kind to you so that you will decide to change your lives.
5 But you are so stubborn! You refuse to change. So you are making your own punishment greater and greater. You will be punished on the day when God will show his anger. On that day everyone will see how right God is to judge people. 6 [God] will reward or punish everyone for what they have done. 7 Some people live for God’s glory, for honor, and for life that cannot be destroyed. They live for those things by always continuing to do good. God will give eternal life to them. 8 But others are selfish and refuse to follow truth. They follow evil. God will show his anger and punish them. 9 He will give trouble and suffering to everyone who does evil—to the Jews first and also to those who are not Jews. 10 But he will give glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does good—to the Jews first and also to those who are not Jews. 11 God judges everyone the same. It doesn’t matter who they are.

James 2:14-17
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

2 Corinthians 5:10
10 We must all stand before Christ to be judged. Everyone will get what they should. They will be paid for whatever they did—good or bad—when they lived in this earthly body.


So, which is it, and why?


.
While I tend to not think of these things in terms that most mainline Christians might understand them, I'll share my perspective here because I think it speaks a truth, which transcends the Christian religion itself.

What you see above in the passages is speaking how that God's being is nothing that is "earned". God's being is a gift of our existence. To try to imagine one can "buy God" through deeds is the madness of the human ego, infatuated with its own power as if it can attain godhood through heroic efforts.

This same principle is found in many religions. The ego is what stands between you and Enlightenment, Realization, Nirvana, God, or Self. Letting go of the ego allows That Which Is, or the Divine to be realized as something that is there of its own, unearned. It's like claiming you found life, when you are already living it. It's like trying to claim your own lungs as an accomplishment.

That is what is meant by Grace. It's not earned. It's already there. The only thing that stands between us and the realization of our own Lungs, as it were, is the ego. It's all a path of surrendering of our own efforts and allow what is already there to be fully realized in our being, which is what "salvation" points to as a metaphor in Christian parlance.

So now, to address the passages about works, and being judged for right and wrong.

These are actually two separate lines of thought. First the "faith without works is dead" passage. It's actually pretty simple. It's like someone saying they love tomatoes, yet every time you serve those to them they eat everything else but push those off the plate. Clearly, what they say and what they do don't match. That's all this is saying. If you claim you have faith, but yet your behaviors do the opposite of what faith inspires us to do, which is doing good, then that "faith" is dead, or not real faith as another way to put it.

Jesus pointed this out in one of his core teachings, "By their fruits you shall know them". Why? Because faith produces good fruit. "Faith without works is dead". In other words, the fruits are evidence that you have actually realized God in your life. To say you have, and act out of alignment with that, tells a different story.

Now the second part of your quotes about being judged for our deeds.

This is the basic law of Karma. "You reap what you sow," in Christian parlance. What we store up for ourselves, we harvest. Is this the same as 'standing before God in judgment'? Yes, it is. These are universal truths understood on a spiritual level as part of Reality. That Reality has a basic Nature, which when we act out of accord with it, brings us down from it. We "fall" as it were.

It's like floating in a vast sea, where each of us rise or sink according to our own buoyancy. If we do bad deeds, if we heap weight upon ourselves, we sink and fall further from that power of God, or a full illumination or Enlightenment. If we let go of all of that weight, if we surrender it, then we naturally begin to rise, becoming lighter and lighter, until all of life is effortless and full of Peace.

This "judgment" is again simply nothing other than the law of Karma, which is reaping what we sow. So you have three things you touched upon, and while related, they support each other, rather than contradict. Despite how the Bible does contradict itself often, I don't see these as that much at odds.
 

calm

Active Member
@Skwim
When Paul says that one is not saved by works, he means that someone who does not believe cannot save himself only by works. There are also unbelievers who bring good works, but they should not think that they can be saved by the works they have done. This is what Paul means.
But the people who do not bring any works but have only faith, so the other way round, they likewise should not think that they alone can be saved through faith.
Someone who wants to be redeemed must accomplish faith and works. For faith comes out of works. He who fears God does his will. And his will is to do good works.
 
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shmogie

Well-Known Member
That's how it strikes me as well.

.
Not at all. Salvation is by Grace, Gods unmerited favor, through faith.

There is absolutely nothing a person can do to earn salvation, because no matter what we do it cannot make us meet the requirements God demands for acceptance.

Only in Christ, whose life and death and resurrection is accounted to us, making us positionally justified and perfect, can the standard be met. It has nothing to do with what you do, everything to do with what you believe.

Faith then is what saves, yet part of that faith is the ability and understanding to improve ones life, and that of others. If one ¨believes¨ yet does not improve and do good things, then their faith is bogus.

So no, there are no licenses given. There are advice and commandments given. A true Christian will, by faith, embrace these and act upon them.

A Christian is either moving forward in faith, which results in deeds, or is standing still, or worse, slipping backwards.

At some point, a failing Christian ceases to be a Christian. Instead of changing the world by doing good, the world changed them. They are Christians in name only.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
.

EVIDENCE FOR GRACE

Romans 11:6
6 And if he chose them by grace, then it is not what they have done that made them his people. If they could be made his people by what they did, his gift of grace would not really be a gift.

Titus 3:5
5 He saved us because of his mercy, not because of any good things we did. He saved us through the washing that made us new people. He saved us by making us new through the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 I mean that you have been saved by grace because you believed. You did not save yourselves; it was a gift from God. 9 You are not saved by the things you have done, so there is nothing to boast about.

__________________________________________________________________________
__________________________________________________________________________
EVIDENCE FOR WORKS

Romans 2: 4-11
4 God has been kind to you. He has been very patient, waiting for you to change. But you think nothing of his kindness. Maybe you don’t understand that God is kind to you so that you will decide to change your lives.
5 But you are so stubborn! You refuse to change. So you are making your own punishment greater and greater. You will be punished on the day when God will show his anger. On that day everyone will see how right God is to judge people. 6 [God] will reward or punish everyone for what they have done. 7 Some people live for God’s glory, for honor, and for life that cannot be destroyed. They live for those things by always continuing to do good. God will give eternal life to them. 8 But others are selfish and refuse to follow truth. They follow evil. God will show his anger and punish them. 9 He will give trouble and suffering to everyone who does evil—to the Jews first and also to those who are not Jews. 10 But he will give glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does good—to the Jews first and also to those who are not Jews. 11 God judges everyone the same. It doesn’t matter who they are.

James 2:14-17
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

2 Corinthians 5:10
10 We must all stand before Christ to be judged. Everyone will get what they should. They will be paid for whatever they did—good or bad—when they lived in this earthly body.


So, which is it, and why?


.

The question is, What is Works?
What does it mean,
"You are saved by Faith and not of works"

Ephesians 2:8-9,
8--"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9--"Not of works, lest any man should boast"

Let's for say, there's a train and that train for it to move has two rails to move upon.

Now if you take up anyone of those two rails, that train is going no where.

Therefore faith and works goes together, take faith out or take works out.
Faith goes no where.
Works goes no where.
Therefore faith and works are like two rails that a train moves on.
Remove either one, that train goes no where.
Therefore faith and works, goes together.

Therefore you show me your faith and I will show you my faith by my works.

Works stands as Actions.
It is by my works ( Actions) shows my faith.
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
My understanding of the Christian concept of grace was that it's independent of human action. That would make it pretty different than both faith and works which are human actions.

Unfortunately some misinterpret the passages that speak about "grace", imagining it to mean that just 'believing' puts you into some kind of 'untouchable' position.....that you can go on sinning with impunity because you have somehow become immune to prosecution for your sins. That is not what Christ or his apostles taught. It is by God's undeserved kindness and mercy that we are even alive, when sin is responsible for death.....and the results of sin are so offensive to God. We have to try to the best of our ability NOT to deliberately sin, and if we do experience a lapse, due to our imperfect nature, God provides a way to forgive us. But only if we are repentant. People looking for excuses will find them. :(

Sometimes, like in WWII, G-d sent the Allies. Sometimes, like if you're sick, G-d sends a doctor. If you're stuck in a ditch on the side of the road, I guess He could send a tow truck or maybe a nice motorist to help push you out. There's lots of ways.

To be saved from a bad situation.

For Christians, being "saved" means being spared when the day of God's anger comes upon the inhabitants of this earth and he demands an accounting. We believe that Jesus is God's appointed judge and that he will carry out his Father's will just as he has always done, eliminating from existence all who treat his laws and his name with contempt.

When does "the great day of the Lord" come for Jews?

We have a concept that G-d does kindness beyond what's deserved. I guess that's like grace. And the Law requires that we believe in G-d. So I guess that's faith. And the Law requires that we uphold the Laws to the best of our ability, so that seems like "works" to me, although for some reason you seem to differentiate them.

JW's don't differentiate, so I guess we are closer to your definition than we are to Christendom's. :)
 

Shad

Veteran Member
.

EVIDENCE FOR GRACE

Romans 11:6
6 And if he chose them by grace, then it is not what they have done that made them his people. If they could be made his people by what they did, his gift of grace would not really be a gift.

Titus 3:5
5 He saved us because of his mercy, not because of any good things we did. He saved us through the washing that made us new people. He saved us by making us new through the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 I mean that you have been saved by grace because you believed. You did not save yourselves; it was a gift from God. 9 You are not saved by the things you have done, so there is nothing to boast about.

__________________________________________________________________________
__________________________________________________________________________
EVIDENCE FOR WORKS

Romans 2: 4-11
4 God has been kind to you. He has been very patient, waiting for you to change. But you think nothing of his kindness. Maybe you don’t understand that God is kind to you so that you will decide to change your lives.
5 But you are so stubborn! You refuse to change. So you are making your own punishment greater and greater. You will be punished on the day when God will show his anger. On that day everyone will see how right God is to judge people. 6 [God] will reward or punish everyone for what they have done. 7 Some people live for God’s glory, for honor, and for life that cannot be destroyed. They live for those things by always continuing to do good. God will give eternal life to them. 8 But others are selfish and refuse to follow truth. They follow evil. God will show his anger and punish them. 9 He will give trouble and suffering to everyone who does evil—to the Jews first and also to those who are not Jews. 10 But he will give glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does good—to the Jews first and also to those who are not Jews. 11 God judges everyone the same. It doesn’t matter who they are.

James 2:14-17
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

2 Corinthians 5:10
10 We must all stand before Christ to be judged. Everyone will get what they should. They will be paid for whatever they did—good or bad—when they lived in this earthly body.


So, which is it, and why?


.

Good work is conditional on faith otherwise people could do good work in bad faith for their heaven ticket.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
In a sense it could be regarded as an illustration of the bifurcated nature of the Christian faith; Christians unable to resolve one of the basic tenets of their faith. And an outsider left looking at a religion with conflicting instructions. One would think a religion based of the instructions of its god would at least get this part resolved, and not be divisive. It doesn't speak well of Christianity at all..

This just demonstrates that those in Christendom, divided and at odds with themselves, all claiming to be "one body" of Christians, can be no such thing. (1 Corinthians 1:10)

There is a reason why Jesus gave the parable of "the wheat and the weeds". True Christians and fake ones planted by the devil would co-exist in the same "field", right up to the time of the "harvest", when the two would be clearly separate, not resembling one another at all. Jesus identifies the traits of the "weed-like" "Christians" and says that these would be harvested first, and disposed of by his angels. (Matthew 13:24-30; Matthew 13:36-43)

It is not "Christianity" that gives Christians a bad name, but "Christendom", whose teachings bear no resemblance to the teaching of Jesus in any way. The whole divided "church" system will be the first to go down as the most offensive part of satan's system. (1 Peter 4:17)

The devil has his own 'three part, control of this world......fake religion....greedy commercialism.....and corrupt politics. Every human on earth is controlled by these three to a greater or lesser extent. God promises to dispose of all these disgusting elements of the devil's rulership, and bring in the incorruptible rulership of his Kingdom. (Daniel 2:44) We have to be no part of any of them. (John 17:16)

Jesus taught us to pray for God's Kingdom to "come" and for his will to be done "on earth as it is in heaven".
I believe that we are living in the time when we will see that prayer answered. But many who thought that they were "saved" are going to be disappointed. (Matthew 7:21-23)
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
.
...mean that you have been saved by grace because you believed. You did not save yourselves; it was a gift from God. 9 You are not saved by the things you have done, so there is nothing to boast about.
.

This verse is highly quoted
Ephesians 2:8-9
I mean that you have been saved by grace because you believed. You did not save yourselves;
it was a gift from God. You are not saved by the things you have done, so there is nothing to boast
about.


but it ignores the next verse
For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance
for us to do.


By ignoring such verses people show they are picking and choosing what parts of scripture they will
accept. We are told in Exodus that the unblemished male lamb which saved the people from death
must be eaten whole - leaving nothing behind.
 

leov

Well-Known Member
.

EVIDENCE FOR GRACE

Romans 11:6
6 And if he chose them by grace, then it is not what they have done that made them his people. If they could be made his people by what they did, his gift of grace would not really be a gift.

Titus 3:5
5 He saved us because of his mercy, not because of any good things we did. He saved us through the washing that made us new people. He saved us by making us new through the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 I mean that you have been saved by grace because you believed. You did not save yourselves; it was a gift from God. 9 You are not saved by the things you have done, so there is nothing to boast about.

__________________________________________________________________________
__________________________________________________________________________
EVIDENCE FOR WORKS

Romans 2: 4-11
4 God has been kind to you. He has been very patient, waiting for you to change. But you think nothing of his kindness. Maybe you don’t understand that God is kind to you so that you will decide to change your lives.
5 But you are so stubborn! You refuse to change. So you are making your own punishment greater and greater. You will be punished on the day when God will show his anger. On that day everyone will see how right God is to judge people. 6 [God] will reward or punish everyone for what they have done. 7 Some people live for God’s glory, for honor, and for life that cannot be destroyed. They live for those things by always continuing to do good. God will give eternal life to them. 8 But others are selfish and refuse to follow truth. They follow evil. God will show his anger and punish them. 9 He will give trouble and suffering to everyone who does evil—to the Jews first and also to those who are not Jews. 10 But he will give glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does good—to the Jews first and also to those who are not Jews. 11 God judges everyone the same. It doesn’t matter who they are.

James 2:14-17
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

2 Corinthians 5:10
10 We must all stand before Christ to be judged. Everyone will get what they should. They will be paid for whatever they did—good or bad—when they lived in this earthly body.


So, which is it, and why?


.
Both.
"14The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one."
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
@Skwim
There are also unbelievers who bring good works, but they should not think that they can be saved by the works they have done.

For those who don't believe, it seems extremely unlikely that they would "think that they can be saved" by works, since they wouldn't believe in the concept at all. Their good works would be solely out of the goodness of their heart, without any thought of reward for themselves.

This is what Paul means.
But the people who do not bring any works but have only faith, so the other way round, they likewise should not think that they alone can be saved through faith.
Someone who wants to be redeemed must accomplish faith and works. For faith comes out of works. He who fears God does his will. And his will is to do good works.

What about good works done out of love for humanity, without necessarily making it contingent on any heavenly reward or fear of God? "Faith" is nothing more than sucking up to God, to pacify His insatiable ego. I don't know exactly what purpose all this endless praise and worship serves for God, but it doesn't do anything for anyone here on Earth.

It's this kind of mentality in propagated belief systems that causes people to want to turn away from religion, since it doesn't make any sense. It makes God seem like an unreasonable, egotistical tyrant who cares more about people sucking up to Him than about people leading decent lives and doing good works.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
.

EVIDENCE FOR GRACE

Romans 11:6
6 And if he chose them by grace, then it is not what they have done that made them his people. If they could be made his people by what they did, his gift of grace would not really be a gift.

Titus 3:5
5 He saved us because of his mercy, not because of any good things we did. He saved us through the washing that made us new people. He saved us by making us new through the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 I mean that you have been saved by grace because you believed. You did not save yourselves; it was a gift from God. 9 You are not saved by the things you have done, so there is nothing to boast about.

__________________________________________________________________________
__________________________________________________________________________
EVIDENCE FOR WORKS

Romans 2: 4-11
4 God has been kind to you. He has been very patient, waiting for you to change. But you think nothing of his kindness. Maybe you don’t understand that God is kind to you so that you will decide to change your lives.
5 But you are so stubborn! You refuse to change. So you are making your own punishment greater and greater. You will be punished on the day when God will show his anger. On that day everyone will see how right God is to judge people. 6 [God] will reward or punish everyone for what they have done. 7 Some people live for God’s glory, for honor, and for life that cannot be destroyed. They live for those things by always continuing to do good. God will give eternal life to them. 8 But others are selfish and refuse to follow truth. They follow evil. God will show his anger and punish them. 9 He will give trouble and suffering to everyone who does evil—to the Jews first and also to those who are not Jews. 10 But he will give glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does good—to the Jews first and also to those who are not Jews. 11 God judges everyone the same. It doesn’t matter who they are.

James 2:14-17
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

2 Corinthians 5:10
10 We must all stand before Christ to be judged. Everyone will get what they should. They will be paid for whatever they did—good or bad—when they lived in this earthly body.


So, which is it, and why?


.

Saved for works
Faith is vindicated by the works that follow.
Faith is the root; works are the fruit.

In Col 1:5,6 the fruitful faith and love went back to the day they understood the grace of God in truth
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
.

EVIDENCE FOR GRACE

Romans 11:6
6 And if he chose them by grace, then it is not what they have done that made them his people. If they could be made his people by what they did, his gift of grace would not really be a gift.

Titus 3:5
5 He saved us because of his mercy, not because of any good things we did. He saved us through the washing that made us new people. He saved us by making us new through the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 I mean that you have been saved by grace because you believed. You did not save yourselves; it was a gift from God. 9 You are not saved by the things you have done, so there is nothing to boast about.

__________________________________________________________________________
__________________________________________________________________________
EVIDENCE FOR WORKS

Romans 2: 4-11
4 God has been kind to you. He has been very patient, waiting for you to change. But you think nothing of his kindness. Maybe you don’t understand that God is kind to you so that you will decide to change your lives.
5 But you are so stubborn! You refuse to change. So you are making your own punishment greater and greater. You will be punished on the day when God will show his anger. On that day everyone will see how right God is to judge people. 6 [God] will reward or punish everyone for what they have done. 7 Some people live for God’s glory, for honor, and for life that cannot be destroyed. They live for those things by always continuing to do good. God will give eternal life to them. 8 But others are selfish and refuse to follow truth. They follow evil. God will show his anger and punish them. 9 He will give trouble and suffering to everyone who does evil—to the Jews first and also to those who are not Jews. 10 But he will give glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does good—to the Jews first and also to those who are not Jews. 11 God judges everyone the same. It doesn’t matter who they are.

James 2:14-17
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

2 Corinthians 5:10
10 We must all stand before Christ to be judged. Everyone will get what they should. They will be paid for whatever they did—good or bad—when they lived in this earthly body.


So, which is it, and why?.
Deserving of reward by thinking pretty thoughts?

Or deserving of reward by actually doing good things?

Wishing as against doing.

A no-brainer, surely?
 

We Never Know

No Slack
Yes. Who is to say, indeed?

However I think the issue here is the notion of being "saved". The idea that some people can be already "saved" - and actually have the temerity to claim as much for themselves - only part way through their lives, is a specifically protestant one, in my experience. It only makes sense if one adopts the doctrine of salvation by faith alone. If good works are a part of salvation, whether one is saved or not is something only to be reckoned up at the end of life, when all the opportunities for good works have come to an end. The obvious danger with the notion of early salvation is smugness and superiority, exclusivity and a failure to bother with good works at all.

However as Tumah points out, the actual question is grace versus works, which is different. I would have thought everyone would agree salvation is by the grace of God, i.e it comes from Him and is His call, not ours.

It's like looking at art, everyone I'll see it differently. Who's right, who's wrong?
In reality on a personal level no one is wrong. It's how they see it.
 

JasAnMa

Member
We are saved BY faith, THROUGH Grace. We ask, He gives. It's grace because we don't deserve it, nor can we obtain ourselves. The works isn't part of being saved. It's more a fruit test, if you know Jesus then people will see fruit (works) in your life. Works are an outward manifestation of God's internal saving Grace. Hope that helped.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
For those who don't believe, it seems extremely unlikely that they would "think that they can be saved" by works, since they wouldn't believe in the concept at all. Their good works would be solely out of the goodness of their heart, without any thought of reward for themselves.



What about good works done out of love for humanity, without necessarily making it contingent on any heavenly reward or fear of God? "Faith" is nothing more than sucking up to God, to pacify His insatiable ego. I don't know exactly what purpose all this endless praise and worship serves for God, but it doesn't do anything for anyone here on Earth.

It's this kind of mentality in propagated belief systems that causes people to want to turn away from religion, since it doesn't make any sense. It makes God seem like an unreasonable, egotistical tyrant who cares more about people sucking up to Him than about people leading decent lives and doing good works.
LOL !! Faith is sucking up to God ? No, in a way it is God sucking up to us.

Leading decent lives and doing Good works. What is that supposed to mean, by what standard ?

Some believe killing an unborn baby at eight months gestation is decent and a good work.

Some believe that taking a large portion of the money you have earned by hard work and giving it to those who refuse to work is decent and a good work.

So, God has an insatiable ego, yet what He endured during the incarnation is not egotistical at all.

God created all there is, yet he offers us a way to escape the consequences of our stupid and sometimes disasterous choices, by having faith that we are forgiven and can begin living the life God wanted us to live, a life of doing to others what you would want them to do to you.

Instead of squashing the rebellious like a gnat, He sucks up to us by offering freely a way to be redeemed and be right with Him.
 

Notthedarkweb

Indian phil, German idealism, Rawls
Ok, this is primarily a Christian soteriological thread, but let me answer this one from a Hindu perspective, especially the perspective of the Hindu philosophical school I am most interested in.

Now, borrowing from the soteriology of Yoga and other various mystical traditions, we have four different yogic appeoaches to liberation from samsara (death and rebirth): raja yoga, which involves self-reflection and contemplation of your oneness within the absolute Brahman (in Nyaya this doesn't apply, since after achieving moksha the soul is considered to be of the same substance as that of Ishvara, but separate from it in a sort of interconnected stasis.), jnana yoga, the correction of ignorance through the utilization of the classical pramanas to destroy maya, bhakti yoga or the complete and total devotion to Ishvara by the devotee, and karma yoga, which is liberation through good deeds. As you can see, all of these are dependent on action by the follower, but only one is specifically concerned with "works", if what I understand of the Christian definition is correct.

However, for the sake of this, assume all of this is dependent upon the actions of the jiva (being) in the world. Who judges, then? I find Vedantic and other definitions of Ishvara to be hopelessly wrong and therefore look to the Nyaya god, who although an absolute Godhead, also possesses the ability to select the Chosen, judging them on their karma or devotion or such in this life. So, it's a somewhat complicated affairs where works and grace are both correlated. I hope that this helps!
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Unfortunately some misinterpret the passages that speak about "grace", imagining it to mean that just 'believing' puts you into some kind of 'untouchable' position.....that you can go on sinning with impunity because you have somehow become immune to prosecution for your sins. That is not what Christ or his apostles taught. It is by God's undeserved kindness and mercy that we are even alive, when sin is responsible for death.....and the results of sin are so offensive to God. We have to try to the best of our ability NOT to deliberately sin, and if we do experience a lapse, due to our imperfect nature, God provides a way to forgive us. But only if we are repentant. People looking for excuses will find them. :(
From what I had understood about the Christian concept of grace, it doesn't come out of any effort on the part of the person. I think JW's have something similar with the 144,000, but I could be mistaken there. That's where I understood the question of grace vs. works: do you actually need to do something to get to heaven or is it totally irrelevant to what you do.

For Christians, being "saved" means being spared when the day of God's anger comes upon the inhabitants of this earth and he demands an accounting. We believe that Jesus is God's appointed judge and that he will carry out his Father's will just as he has always done, eliminating from existence all who treat his laws and his name with contempt.
That seems like a fairly narrow definition. There are so many times throughout life where we are in danger and in need of salvation.
I don't think we'd call your example "salvation". If there's a judgement, then we'd say you need merits to win the case, not salvation.

When does "the great day of the Lord" come for Jews?
After the Resurrection of the Dead. Three days afterward according to one opinion.

JW's don't differentiate, so I guess we are closer to your definition than we are to Christendom's. :)
My mistake, it seemed like you were differentiating between them.
 

ameyAtmA

~ ~
Premium Member
(in Nyaya this doesn't apply, since after achieving moksha the soul is considered to be of the same substance as that of Ishvara, but separate from it in a sort of interconnected stasis.)

Namaste. Welcome to RF. Please write a short description of the NyAya Darshan (philosophy) in the Theology folder of the Hinduism DIR (Discuss Individual Religions).
After all Nyaya is one of the Shad Darshan - the 6 major Indian philosophies. I knew one other person who followed NyAya Darshan , not here though.

That being said, Parameshwar is best NyAyAdheesh, being lokAdhyaksha, dharmAdhyaksha, surAdhyaksha (VishNuSahasranAma)
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
From what I had understood about the Christian concept of grace, it doesn't come out of any effort on the part of the person. I think JW's have something similar with the 144,000, but I could be mistaken there. That's where I understood the question of grace vs. works: do you actually need to do something to get to heaven or is it totally irrelevant to what you do.

We call it “undeserved kindness” on God’s part. “Grace” has become a word that excuses sin for many in Christendom. (which is why we avoid it) God will never forgive wilful and deliberate sin just because humans want to take advantage of an imagined “insurance” policy that they made up to cover the fact that they love to sin.

The choosing of the 144,000 has nothing to do with humans volunteering to go to heaven based on any works they have performed. When Jesus walked the earth, we believe that standing firmly for the faith in spite of the prevailing attitude against it is what determines the caliber of a person’s dedication to God. The "works" therefore are actions motivated by faith. They are a demonstration of a person's faith.

We do not see Jesus Christ as a deity, but as a servant of his Father sent from heaven on a rescue mission. Sin is the cause of death and according to Genesis, was never supposed to happen, so right there in the garden, God made known the framework of this mission, (Genesis 3:15) though much of the detail remained a mystery until Messiah came and the details unfolded to reveal the role that Messiah would perform....giving his life as a “ransom” for the human race alienated from God due to the disobedience of Adam.

“Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, life for a life”, meant that an equivalent life was needed to offset the perfect law of God. Just as the mandated sacrifices in Israel satisfied God’s justice temporarily, Christ’s sacrifice would do so permanently.

Since no human was the equivalent of the once perfect man Adam, God sent his most trusted representative to offer the equivalent sacrifice for all humanity. But not all would accept the terms. It requires something from us....our love and loyalty to our God and obedience to his commands.....along with a definite and determined effort not to sin deliberately.And if we lapsed for some reason, there was a permanent basis to forgive us.

That seems like a fairly narrow definition. There are so many times throughout life where we are in danger and in need of salvation.

That kind of salvation is not what Jesus accomplished. He paid a price that releases the redeemed human race from the curse of sin, forever. There will never be a need for sacrifices again.

Adamic sin is removed forever, but death will still be the penalty for deliberate sin.....the abuse of free will that was seen in the garden of Eden. All three rebels were once perfect as God had made them, but a self-serving spirit in them led them to abuse their free will and disobey their Creator....leading to the stated penalty...death. Humans were supposed to live unending lives in paradise here on earth, but Adam robbed his children of that opportunity....Christ came to give us back what was taken from us. That is what salvation means to us.....we are “saved” from God’s final judgment on disobedient humanity.

What God purposed in the beginning will be accomplished at the end. (Isaiah 55:11)

I don't think we'd call your example "salvation". If there's a judgement, then we'd say you need merits to win the case, not salvation.

We do need merits, but our personal merits would never be enough because the price of redemption was higher than anyone could ever pay. Jesus gave us the means to be reconciled with God by removing the cause of sin, paying the price to set us free from it forever. I am grateful every day for that provision.

After the Resurrection of the Dead. Three days afterward according to one opinion.

What then is “the great day of God the Almighty” foretold by the prophets, according to Jewish belief?

My mistake, it seemed like you were differentiating between them.

Just to be clear...JW’s hold virtually no beliefs in common with Christendom. We see Jesus as Jewish and as one who led the “lost sheep of the house of Israel” out of a corrupted system of worship, and into a clean and uncorrupted one. We believe that he inaugurated the foretold “new covenant” and that God’s first purpose for his earth and all of his creation will return to his original plan because of what he accomplished for all humanity.

There is no doubt that God loved the Jewish nation, because of his affection for Abraham, but like any parent with wayward sons, he did not like their conduct. And we believe that the time came when his patience ran out. Once he had produced the Messiah, his part of the covenant with Israel was fulfilled. Why put up with these "stiff necked people" any longer? (Exodus 32:7-10; Deuteronomy 9:6)

True to his promise to Abraham, we see that now it matters little what nation you belong to.....because “all nations” were going to be blessed through the seed of Abraham, which we believe is the Messiah, Jesus Christ.
 
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