The 144.000 Jews.

The 144,000 Jews that the Bible mentions (Revelation 7:4-7) are the only ones who will go to heaven and reign with God. Interestingly, these 144,000 Jews are all virgins. For it is written:

Revelation 14:1
1 Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.
3 and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.
4 It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb,
5 and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.

That would mean that even people like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob do not belong to these 144,000 people. And that surprises me very much, for who are these people and why are they so special that they even stand above these 3 fathers?

Are these maybe the "lost sheep" Jesus once mentioned?

“I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
Matthew 15:24

What do you think?

144,000 adult male Jewish virgins (not "defiled" themselves with women)? That impossibility is what you wind up when you start taking the Bible literally.

And, of course, the word "defile" is objectionable all on its own.

calm said:

What do you think?

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I think Revelations is so laced with nonsense as to render it worse than worthless.

Jayhawker Soule said:

I think Revelations is so laced with nonsense as to render it worse than worthless.

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Even if John had, say, a vision of WWII, nuclear weapons etc, how would he have even had a frame-of-reference to set down what he saw. There are some who try to see Revelation in terms of environmental degradation, modern weapons, mass murder and so forth.

I'm not among them but to me it's a step better from unquestioned literalism.

2 Corinthians 11:2
For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

calm said:

The 144,000 Jews that the Bible mentions (Revelation 7:4-7) are the only ones who will go to heaven and reign with God. Interestingly, these 144,000 Jews are all virgins. For it is written:

Revelation 14:1
1 Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.
3 and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.
4 It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb,
5 and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.

That would mean that even people like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob do not belong to these 144,000 people. And that surprises me very much, for who are these people and why are they so special that they even stand above these 3 fathers?

Are these maybe the "lost sheep" Jesus once mentioned?

“I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
Matthew 15:24

What do you think?

Click to expand...

"31And he said to him, ‘Son, you are always with me, and all that is mine is yours. 32It was fitting to celebrate and be glad, for this your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found.’” Lk 15
"11He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. 12But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." Jn1

Luke 22:28-30
28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

There are about 6 billion people on Earth, so its entirely possible that there exist 144,000 male virgins, somewhere. The tricky part is the four living creatures and the odd bit about writing names upon heads and a lamb on a mountain with all 144,000 following it about. First of all I must assume these are the 4 who are covered with eyes and mentioned in Ezekiel 1:4-5. Secondly the lamb is slain from the foundation of the world, so its a little difficult to get the meaning right with people following a slain lamb which moves about. Third what is the impact of writing a name on someone's head, other than the pain it inflicts?

That is an interesting point about Abraham not being one of those who are following the lamb. What an interesting result that there couldn't have been 144,001 at least for his sake.

Jayhawker Soule said:

I think Revelations is so laced with nonsense as to render it worse than worthless.

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You could at least act inspired!

sun rise said:

Even if John had, say, a vision of WWII, nuclear weapons etc, how would he have even had a frame-of-reference to set down what he saw. There are some who try to see Revelation in terms of environmental degradation, modern weapons, mass murder and so forth.

I'm not among them but to me it's a step better from unquestioned literalism.

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I fail to see what your post has to do with the OP. We aren't discussing whether Revelation makes sense.

nPeace said:

Luke 22:28-30
28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Click to expand...

What are you trying to tell me now?

nPeace said:

2 Corinthians 11:2
For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

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leov said:

"31And he said to him, ‘Son, you are always with me, and all that is mine is yours. 32It was fitting to celebrate and be glad, for this your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found.’” Lk 15
"11He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. 12But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." Jn1

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What are you trying to tell me?

calm said:

What are you trying to tell me?

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The nature of the 144000 which is coded message in the number like in 666.

calm said:

The 144.000 Jews.
What do you think?

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Revelation 7:3-8 saying, “Don’t harm the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, until we have sealed the bondservants of our God on their foreheads!” (4) I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the children of Israel: (5) of the tribe of Judah were sealed twelve thousand, of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand, of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand, (6) of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand, of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand, of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand, (7) of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand, of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand, of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand, (8) of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand, of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand, of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

The Tribes of Israel make 144000, with 12000 Jews.

calm said:

“I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

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Take into account Israel the northern kingdom had long been taken/scattered by the Assyrians, with Yeshua saying to the Jews, his message would reach out to bring in the lost Tribes, like the lost sheep parable.

In my opinion.

leov said:

The nature of the 144000 which is coded message in the number like in 666.

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No, that's not a coded message. These are real 144,000 people. This also becomes clear when you look at the context.

wizanda said:

Revelation 7:3-8 saying, “Don’t harm the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, until we have sealed the bondservants of our God on their foreheads!” (4) I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the children of Israel: (5) of the tribe of Judah were sealed twelve thousand, of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand, of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand, (6) of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand, of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand, of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand, (7) of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand, of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand, of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand, (8) of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand, of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand, of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

The Tribes of Israel make 144000, with 12000 Jews.

Take into account Israel the northern kingdom had long been taken/scattered by the Assyrians, with Yeshua saying to the Jews, his message would reach out to bring in the lost Tribes, like the lost sheep parable.

In my opinion.

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'Israel' term is more general, 'those who see G-d', or 'those capable seeing G-d'.

calm said:

No, that's not a coded message. These are real 144,000 people. This also becomes clear when you look at the context.

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Book of R, is coded 100%.

calm said:

What do you think?

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IMO, it is likely that 144,000 stands for "completion upon completion and in great numbers" based on the fact that those numbers were used in symbolic fashion back then.

I gotta go, but respond to this and I'll get back with ya tomorrow to explain.

Take care.

calm said:

The 144,000 Jews that the Bible mentions (Revelation 7:4-7) are the only ones who will go to heaven and reign with God. Interestingly, these 144,000 Jews are all virgins. For it is written:

Revelation 14:1
1 Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.
3 and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.
4 It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb,
5 and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.

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This is not physical virginity but spiritual purity. Some of the apostles were married. (1 Corinthians 9:5) Jesus healed Peter's mother-in-law (Matthew 8:14-15).....you think Peter is not going to heaven?

That would mean that even people like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob do not belong to these 144,000 people. And that surprises me very much, for who are these people and why are they so special that they even stand above these 3 fathers?

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The only ones who are going to heaven are those chosen by God for a heavenly assignment. (Hebrews 3:1)
This group did not begin to be chosen until Jesus inaugurated the "new covenant" with his apostles on the night before his death. These are the only ones who will rule with Christ in heaven. Once the full number is reached, then the hope of the Kingdom reverts back to what applied to all of God's faithful servants in pre-Christian times. They only ever believed in an earthly resurrection. (Hebrews 11:1-13)

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, like all the faithful ones of ancient times will have assignments on earth. No one who died before Jesus opened the way to heaven will be resurrected to rulership and priestly roles. (Revelation 20:6)

Are these maybe the "lost sheep" Jesus once mentioned?

“I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
Matthew 15:24

What do you think?

Click to expand...

The "lost sheep" were chosen by Jesus as his apostles and after he had trained them for the work that would continue after he left the earthly scene, these would find other "lost" ones and bring them into the fold....all would have the heavenly hope confirmed by an anointing with God's spirit. Why was this anointing necessary? Because all humans are programmed to enjoy life in paradise conditions on earth forever....it was God's first purpose after all....but the anointing of Christ's "joint heirs" overrides this natural desire to remain on earth, for many this will mean being apart from their families and friends. Paul indicated that it was a powerful desire.

So those who go to heaven are God's servants just as those on earth will be....just in a different capacity. There is no envy because being a servant makes us all equal. Our service is what matters, not our rank. We all serve the same God in whatever capacity he assigns to us. There is never a reason to think anyone is better than another in God's eyes. Faithfulness and loyalty are what God rewards.

calm said:

What are you trying to tell me?

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Me? Girl, me not trying to tell you nuttin.
Ephesians 3:4-6
4 So when you read this, you can realize my comprehension of the sacred secret of the Christ. 5 In other generations this secret was not made known to the sons of men as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by spirit, 6 namely, that people of the nations should, in union with Christ Jesus and through the good news, be joint heirs and fellow members of the body and partakers with us of the promise.

Whoever has ears to listen, let him listen. (Mark 4:23)

calm said:

1 Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.
3 and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.
4 It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb,
5 and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.

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For what? My question is, why does that please God? How long do they have to do that? Who are the elders, and are they also virgins? How come I never read about Jesus or Paul and the others breaking out in song? I can't imagine something like this pleasing any mortal man on earth, and supposedly we all have the same mind as god as we are in the image of god. So we should be able to understand it. The disciples weren't even virgins were they, yet they followed the lamb around while he was on the earth, so does this mean these people on the mountain are holier than they are? Did these people remain Jewish their entire corporeal lives, or did they convert? In Jewish law, I thought marriage was strongly encouraged. So does that mean they all rebelled against their tradition? Did they all live in the same part of history, or did they live at different times?

calm said:

The 144,000 Jews that the Bible mentions (Revelation 7:4-7) are the only ones who will go to heaven and reign with God. Interestingly, these 144,000 Jews are all virgins. For it is written:

Revelation 14:1
1 Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.
3 and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.
4 It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb,
5 and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.

That would mean that even people like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob do not belong to these 144,000 people. And that surprises me very much, for who are these people and why are they so special that they even stand above these 3 fathers?

Are these maybe the "lost sheep" Jesus once mentioned?

“I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
Matthew 15:24

What do you think?

Click to expand...

There is nothing special about virgins or Jews that either one should enter heaven to the exclusion of others