Saved By Grace Or Saved By Works?

Skwim · Oct 4, 2019

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EVIDENCE FOR GRACE

Romans 11:6
6 And if he chose them by grace, then it is not what they have done that made them his people. If they could be made his people by what they did, his gift of grace would not really be a gift.

Titus 3:5
5 He saved us because of his mercy, not because of any good things we did. He saved us through the washing that made us new people. He saved us by making us new through the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 I mean that you have been saved by grace because you believed. You did not save yourselves; it was a gift from God. 9 You are not saved by the things you have done, so there is nothing to boast about.

__________________________________________________________________________
__________________________________________________________________________

EVIDENCE FOR WORKS

Romans 2: 4-11
4 God has been kind to you. He has been very patient, waiting for you to change. But you think nothing of his kindness. Maybe you don’t understand that God is kind to you so that you will decide to change your lives.
5 But you are so stubborn! You refuse to change. So you are making your own punishment greater and greater. You will be punished on the day when God will show his anger. On that day everyone will see how right God is to judge people. 6 [God] will reward or punish everyone for what they have done. 7 Some people live for God’s glory, for honor, and for life that cannot be destroyed. They live for those things by always continuing to do good. God will give eternal life to them. 8 But others are selfish and refuse to follow truth. They follow evil. God will show his anger and punish them. 9 He will give trouble and suffering to everyone who does evil—to the Jews first and also to those who are not Jews. 10 But he will give glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does good—to the Jews first and also to those who are not Jews. 11 God judges everyone the same. It doesn’t matter who they are.

James 2:14-17
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

2 Corinthians 5:10
10 We must all stand before Christ to be judged. Everyone will get what they should. They will be paid for whatever they did—good or bad—when they lived in this earthly body.

So, which is it, and why?

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We Never Know · Oct 4, 2019

Skwim said:
.

EVIDENCE FOR GRACE

Romans 11:6
6 And if he chose them by grace, then it is not what they have done that made them his people. If they could be made his people by what they did, his gift of grace would not really be a gift.

Titus 3:5
5 He saved us because of his mercy, not because of any good things we did. He saved us through the washing that made us new people. He saved us by making us new through the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 I mean that you have been saved by grace because you believed. You did not save yourselves; it was a gift from God. 9 You are not saved by the things you have done, so there is nothing to boast about.

__________________________________________________________________________
__________________________________________________________________________

EVIDENCE FOR WORKS

Romans 2: 4-11
4 God has been kind to you. He has been very patient, waiting for you to change. But you think nothing of his kindness. Maybe you don’t understand that God is kind to you so that you will decide to change your lives.
5 But you are so stubborn! You refuse to change. So you are making your own punishment greater and greater. You will be punished on the day when God will show his anger. On that day everyone will see how right God is to judge people. 6 [God] will reward or punish everyone for what they have done. 7 Some people live for God’s glory, for honor, and for life that cannot be destroyed. They live for those things by always continuing to do good. God will give eternal life to them. 8 But others are selfish and refuse to follow truth. They follow evil. God will show his anger and punish them. 9 He will give trouble and suffering to everyone who does evil—to the Jews first and also to those who are not Jews. 10 But he will give glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does good—to the Jews first and also to those who are not Jews. 11 God judges everyone the same. It doesn’t matter who they are.

James 2:14-17
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

2 Corinthians 5:10
10 We must all stand before Christ to be judged. Everyone will get what they should. They will be paid for whatever they did—good or bad—when they lived in this earthly body.

So, which is it, and why?

.

Being many take the bible in different ways, I reckon people feel they are saved by what they believe and how they personally interpret the scriptures. Who's to say who's right and who's wrong?

Deeje · Oct 4, 2019

Skwim said:
So, which is it, and why?

Both.

Why?

James 2:14-26...
"Of what benefit is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but he does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it? 15 If any brothers or sisters are lacking clothing and enough food for the day, 16 yet one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but you do not give them what they need for their body, of what benefit is it? 17 So, too, faith by itself, without works, is dead.

18 Nevertheless, someone will say: “You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder. 20 But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father declared righteous by works after he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that his faith was active along with his works and his faith was perfected by his works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled that says: “Abraham put faith in Jehovah, and it was counted to him as righteousness,” and he came to be called Jehovah’s friend.

24 You see that a man is to be declared righteous by works and not by faith alone. 25 In the same manner, was not Raʹhab the prostitute also declared righteous by works after she received the messengers hospitably and sent them out by another way? 26 Indeed, just as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."

That's why.....
Faith is demonstrated by works. You can't have one without the other.

Skwim · Oct 4, 2019

We Never Know said:
Being many take the bible in different ways, I reckon people feel they are saved by what they believe and how they personally interpret the scriptures. Who's to say who's right and who's wrong?

Typically, those who believe one way feel they're right and that those who believe the other way are wrong.

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We Never Know · Oct 4, 2019

Skwim said:
Typically, those who believe one way feel they're right and that those who believe the other way are wrong.

Exactly! Which is why I stated "Being many take the bible in different ways, I reckon people feel they are saved by what they believe and how they personally interpret the scriptures. Who's to say who's right and who's wrong?"

.

Desert Snake · Oct 4, 2019

Neither. The word in Greek is 'charity', something already given, hence the belief.

John 3:36

Tumah · Oct 4, 2019

Deeje said:
Both.

Why?

James 2:14-26...
"Of what benefit is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but he does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it? 15 If any brothers or sisters are lacking clothing and enough food for the day, 16 yet one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but you do not give them what they need for their body, of what benefit is it? 17 So, too, faith by itself, without works, is dead.

18 Nevertheless, someone will say: “You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder. 20 But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father declared righteous by works after he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that his faith was active along with his works and his faith was perfected by his works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled that says: “Abraham put faith in Jehovah, and it was counted to him as righteousness,” and he came to be called Jehovah’s friend.

24 You see that a man is to be declared righteous by works and not by faith alone. 25 In the same manner, was not Raʹhab the prostitute also declared righteous by works after she received the messengers hospitably and sent them out by another way? 26 Indeed, just as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."

That's why.....
Faith is demonstrated by works. You can't have one without the other.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be deliberating between faith and works, while the OP is deliberating between grace and works.

exchemist · Oct 4, 2019

We Never Know said:
Being many take the bible in different ways, I reckon people feel they are saved by what they believe and how they personally interpret the scriptures. Who's to say who's right and who's wrong?

Yes. Who is to say, indeed?

However I think the issue here is the notion of being "saved". The idea that some people can be already "saved" - and actually have the temerity to claim as much for themselves - only part way through their lives, is a specifically protestant one, in my experience. It only makes sense if one adopts the doctrine of salvation by faith alone. If good works are a part of salvation, whether one is saved or not is something only to be reckoned up at the end of life, when all the opportunities for good works have come to an end. The obvious danger with the notion of early salvation is smugness and superiority, exclusivity and a failure to bother with good works at all.

However as Tumah points out, the actual question is grace versus works, which is different. I would have thought everyone would agree salvation is by the grace of God, i.e it comes from Him and is His call, not ours.

Regiomontanus · Oct 4, 2019

Skwim said:
.

EVIDENCE FOR GRACE

Romans 11:6
6 And if he chose them by grace, then it is not what they have done that made them his people. If they could be made his people by what they did, his gift of grace would not really be a gift.

Titus 3:5
5 He saved us because of his mercy, not because of any good things we did. He saved us through the washing that made us new people. He saved us by making us new through the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 I mean that you have been saved by grace because you believed. You did not save yourselves; it was a gift from God. 9 You are not saved by the things you have done, so there is nothing to boast about.

__________________________________________________________________________
__________________________________________________________________________

EVIDENCE FOR WORKS

Romans 2: 4-11
4 God has been kind to you. He has been very patient, waiting for you to change. But you think nothing of his kindness. Maybe you don’t understand that God is kind to you so that you will decide to change your lives.
5 But you are so stubborn! You refuse to change. So you are making your own punishment greater and greater. You will be punished on the day when God will show his anger. On that day everyone will see how right God is to judge people. 6 [God] will reward or punish everyone for what they have done. 7 Some people live for God’s glory, for honor, and for life that cannot be destroyed. They live for those things by always continuing to do good. God will give eternal life to them. 8 But others are selfish and refuse to follow truth. They follow evil. God will show his anger and punish them. 9 He will give trouble and suffering to everyone who does evil—to the Jews first and also to those who are not Jews. 10 But he will give glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does good—to the Jews first and also to those who are not Jews. 11 God judges everyone the same. It doesn’t matter who they are.

James 2:14-17
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

2 Corinthians 5:10
10 We must all stand before Christ to be judged. Everyone will get what they should. They will be paid for whatever they did—good or bad—when they lived in this earthly body.

So, which is it, and why?

.

Great question. I find it hard to believe though that you really care. I mean, almost all of your posts are attacks on Christianity.

Or perhaps you are coming to your senses?

exchemist · Oct 4, 2019

Regiomontanus said:
Great question. I find it hard to believe though that you really care. I mean, almost all of your posts are attacks on Christianity.

Or perhaps you are coming to your senses?

I reached that conclusion when I first joined the forum. Skwim was the second or third person I put on Ignore, I think.

exchemist · Oct 4, 2019

Actually there is no conflict between salvation through grace and salvation in part through good works. It is a false antithesis.

Salvation through God's grace simply means none of us can claim to be intrinsically worthy of it, so it is God's decision in each case to show us mercy and give us grace. Whether faith alone, or faith and good works, are crucial is another question, viz. what we believe God takes into consideration when dispensing His grace.

Deeje · Oct 4, 2019

Tumah said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be deliberating between faith and works, while the OP is deliberating between grace and works.

You are right....but I guess that I would still answer pretty much the same....grace (God's undeserved kindness) is the 'means' of salvation.....works is a demonstration of faith in that kindness. Not much between them really.

Can I ask you, how are Jews saved? And what does salvation means to Jewish people?
Do you believe in "grace" and "works"? Or do you just need to scrupulously keep the Law?

danieldemol · Oct 4, 2019

Skwim said:
.

EVIDENCE FOR GRACE

Romans 11:6
6 And if he chose them by grace, then it is not what they have done that made them his people. If they could be made his people by what they did, his gift of grace would not really be a gift.

Titus 3:5
5 He saved us because of his mercy, not because of any good things we did. He saved us through the washing that made us new people. He saved us by making us new through the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 I mean that you have been saved by grace because you believed. You did not save yourselves; it was a gift from God. 9 You are not saved by the things you have done, so there is nothing to boast about.

__________________________________________________________________________
__________________________________________________________________________

EVIDENCE FOR WORKS

Romans 2: 4-11
4 God has been kind to you. He has been very patient, waiting for you to change. But you think nothing of his kindness. Maybe you don’t understand that God is kind to you so that you will decide to change your lives.
5 But you are so stubborn! You refuse to change. So you are making your own punishment greater and greater. You will be punished on the day when God will show his anger. On that day everyone will see how right God is to judge people. 6 [God] will reward or punish everyone for what they have done. 7 Some people live for God’s glory, for honor, and for life that cannot be destroyed. They live for those things by always continuing to do good. God will give eternal life to them. 8 But others are selfish and refuse to follow truth. They follow evil. God will show his anger and punish them. 9 He will give trouble and suffering to everyone who does evil—to the Jews first and also to those who are not Jews. 10 But he will give glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does good—to the Jews first and also to those who are not Jews. 11 God judges everyone the same. It doesn’t matter who they are.

James 2:14-17
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

2 Corinthians 5:10
10 We must all stand before Christ to be judged. Everyone will get what they should. They will be paid for whatever they did—good or bad—when they lived in this earthly body.

So, which is it, and why?

.

I believe it would be tyranny for God to withhold Grace and then condemn us for God’s failure to act.

So since I don’t believe in a tyrannical God, I consider it to be our own choices that make or break us.

Tumah · Oct 4, 2019

Deeje said:
You are right....but I guess that I would still answer pretty much the same....grace (God's undeserved kindness) is the 'means' of salvation.....works is a demonstration of faith in that kindness. Not much between them really.

My understanding of the Christian concept of grace was that it's independent of human action. That would make it pretty different than both faith and works which are human actions.

Can I ask you, how are Jews saved?

Sometimes, like in WWII, G-d sent the Allies. Sometimes, like if you're sick, G-d sends a doctor. If you're stuck in a ditch on the side of the road, I guess He could send a tow truck or maybe a nice motorist to help push you out. There's lots of ways.

And what does salvation means to Jewish people?

To be saved from a bad situation.

Do you believe in "grace" and "works"? Or do you just need to scrupulously keep the Law?

We have a concept that G-d does kindness beyond what's deserved. I guess that's like grace. And the Law requires that we believe in G-d. So I guess that's faith. And the Law requires that we uphold the Laws to the best of our ability, so that seems like "works" to me, although for some reason you seem to differentiate them.

Stevicus · Oct 4, 2019

Skwim said:
.

EVIDENCE FOR GRACE

Romans 11:6
6 And if he chose them by grace, then it is not what they have done that made them his people. If they could be made his people by what they did, his gift of grace would not really be a gift.

Titus 3:5
5 He saved us because of his mercy, not because of any good things we did. He saved us through the washing that made us new people. He saved us by making us new through the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 I mean that you have been saved by grace because you believed. You did not save yourselves; it was a gift from God. 9 You are not saved by the things you have done, so there is nothing to boast about.

__________________________________________________________________________
__________________________________________________________________________

EVIDENCE FOR WORKS

Romans 2: 4-11
4 God has been kind to you. He has been very patient, waiting for you to change. But you think nothing of his kindness. Maybe you don’t understand that God is kind to you so that you will decide to change your lives.
5 But you are so stubborn! You refuse to change. So you are making your own punishment greater and greater. You will be punished on the day when God will show his anger. On that day everyone will see how right God is to judge people. 6 [God] will reward or punish everyone for what they have done. 7 Some people live for God’s glory, for honor, and for life that cannot be destroyed. They live for those things by always continuing to do good. God will give eternal life to them. 8 But others are selfish and refuse to follow truth. They follow evil. God will show his anger and punish them. 9 He will give trouble and suffering to everyone who does evil—to the Jews first and also to those who are not Jews. 10 But he will give glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does good—to the Jews first and also to those who are not Jews. 11 God judges everyone the same. It doesn’t matter who they are.

James 2:14-17
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

2 Corinthians 5:10
10 We must all stand before Christ to be judged. Everyone will get what they should. They will be paid for whatever they did—good or bad—when they lived in this earthly body.

So, which is it, and why?

.

My own view is that actions speak louder than words. I've heard the arguments against "works," and it seems as if it's a way of granting license to people to act like total scumbags during their lives, while all they have to do to be "saved" is recite a few frilly words every Sunday.

Thief · Oct 4, 2019

I will be paraphrasing scripture for this reply
you will need to quote me as these are my words

God can shame the best of your efforts on your best day
by the least of His own

So....as you present yourself before God and heaven
what is your justification to stand?
or shall you kneel to a Greater Ability

and so again.....the book of Job comes to mind

the sons of God gathered to present themselves
and with them came the devil

From whence comest Thou?

and then......Have you considered the least of my servants Job?

and if we are greater than job?

Thief · Oct 4, 2019

and I use the word ...grace
to mean.....allow

if you walk among the angelic
it is by their grace

and in the custom of previous decades.....
when to enter or to leave
it is by the grace and Presence of Someone Greater

shmogie · Oct 4, 2019

Skwim said:
.

EVIDENCE FOR GRACE

Romans 11:6
6 And if he chose them by grace, then it is not what they have done that made them his people. If they could be made his people by what they did, his gift of grace would not really be a gift.

Titus 3:5
5 He saved us because of his mercy, not because of any good things we did. He saved us through the washing that made us new people. He saved us by making us new through the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 I mean that you have been saved by grace because you believed. You did not save yourselves; it was a gift from God. 9 You are not saved by the things you have done, so there is nothing to boast about.

__________________________________________________________________________
__________________________________________________________________________

EVIDENCE FOR WORKS

Romans 2: 4-11
4 God has been kind to you. He has been very patient, waiting for you to change. But you think nothing of his kindness. Maybe you don’t understand that God is kind to you so that you will decide to change your lives.
5 But you are so stubborn! You refuse to change. So you are making your own punishment greater and greater. You will be punished on the day when God will show his anger. On that day everyone will see how right God is to judge people. 6 [God] will reward or punish everyone for what they have done. 7 Some people live for God’s glory, for honor, and for life that cannot be destroyed. They live for those things by always continuing to do good. God will give eternal life to them. 8 But others are selfish and refuse to follow truth. They follow evil. God will show his anger and punish them. 9 He will give trouble and suffering to everyone who does evil—to the Jews first and also to those who are not Jews. 10 But he will give glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does good—to the Jews first and also to those who are not Jews. 11 God judges everyone the same. It doesn’t matter who they are.

James 2:14-17
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

2 Corinthians 5:10
10 We must all stand before Christ to be judged. Everyone will get what they should. They will be paid for whatever they did—good or bad—when they lived in this earthly body.

So, which is it, and why?

.

Saved by faith, alone. Works are a RESULT of being right with God, not a method of being right with God. If one is right with God, works inevitably follow. Their lack indicates the person does not have salvation by faith.

Rewards are not necessarily about salvation. Different rewards are given for different reasons to those who are saved.

Skwim · Oct 4, 2019

Stevicus said:
My own view is that actions speak louder than words. I've heard the arguments against "works," and it seems as if it's a way of granting license to people to act like total scumbags during their lives, while all they have to do to be "saved" is recite a few frilly words every Sunday.

That's how it strikes me as well.

.

Skwim · Oct 4, 2019

Regiomontanus said:
Great question. I find it hard to believe though that you really care. I mean, almost all of your posts are attacks on Christianity.

Or perhaps you are coming to your senses?

In a sense it could be regarded as an illustration of the bifurcated nature of the Christian faith; Christians unable to resolve one of the basic tenets of their faith. And an outsider left looking at a religion with conflicting instructions. One would think a religion based of the instructions of its god would at least get this part resolved, and not be divisive. It doesn't speak well of Christianity at all.

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Saved By Grace Or Saved By Works?

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