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Why did the world reject the Messiah when He Did come?

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What is the "ultimate truth"?

I see for us, in this life, the Ultimate Truth is acceptance of God's Messengers. That opens a door on another journey.

I see that acceptance opens endless possibilities and I have also noted that the exceptance requires total submission to what is the Truth and that many of us find that very, very hard to achieve.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If we assume Baha'is are right, and Baha'u'llah has brought the latest "Truth" God, what was the truth just before the Bab and Baha'u'llah? Which religion had "The Truth"? From what I understand from Baha'is is that none of them did. All of them had misinterpreted the truth. Baha'is can't even confirm that any other Scriptures of any of the other religions is even accurate, except maybe you accept the Quran. But which other religion's book of Scripture do you believe teaches the "Truth" about God? I don't think you do, do you? I know many of the Baha'is here fall back on the "original" message assumption. But there is no "original" message.

So, as near as I can tell, Baha'is accept and believe as true whatever the Baha'i Faith teaches was true about the other religions... and, of course, leaves off all the things in the other religions that would contradict what the Baha'i Faith believe is the Truth. Which is fine... sort of... after all, Christianity did that with Judaism. They reinterpreted Judaism to fit their beliefs about what the Truth is and now Baha'is have done it to them.

CG, they all had the truth relative to the age they were given and the collective capacity of the human mind.

This is the age of all Truth and the age of peace.

That is found in the Message of Baha'u'llah.

P/S Just drove 850k for a course ha ha

Regards Tony
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Unlike many RFers, as a general rule I actually do try to retrace a conversation between the person who posts something that catches my attention and the person or persons to whom they are responding. In other words, I knew you were responding to Baha'i Tony who certainly does seem to wear "glasses with rose-colored lenses."
  • Tony gave you his version of "the Baha'i 'rosy' view".
  • You responded with (my paraphrase) "How can Baha'i have such a 'rosy' view when there is so much evil/ugliness in the world?"
  • IMO, your complaint is a common complaint that I've heard from the non-Abrahamic world to and against the Abrahamic religions in general, and--pardon my limited, biased perspective--most often and vehemently against Christianity.
    • Here I acknowledge that your complaint was addressed to a Baha'i. Although I am no "good buddy of the Baha'i", I am, nonetheless, familiar with the complaint which your words echo.
  • It's my naive impression that Christianity, more so than the other Abrahamic religions, has a goodly number of speculators who have dedicated many words to discussing theodicy: i.e. the "attempt to answer the question of why a good God permits the manifestation of evil, thus resolving the issue of the problem of evil."
  • Since you brought up the problem of ugliness, I simply asked you if you had a solution to the problem of evil that doesn't involve gods.
  • If you don't have an answer, that's okay. There's no RF rule that prevents you from saying: "I don't."
Actually Baha'is have many things that they claim are solutions to the problems in the world. But, with their claim that their prophet, Baha'u'llah, is the return of the Christ spirit, yet their is still going to be natural disasters, disease and maybe even wars. Although with wars they say that all the other nations are supposed to rise up and put down any aggressive nation. So where is the peace and harmony? Where is evil and death being done away with? But I definitely don't believe that people can and will be able to fix all the evils in the world. But a lot of "ugliness" is in nature. Someone might love a swamp, but somebody, sooner or later is going to get eaten by an alligator or bit by a water moccasin. And that's part of God's creation. Unless you believe that the world was perfect until Adam and Eve sinned and then it all went to pot.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
No, that is a misrepresentation of The Baha'i Faith.

Baha'is do not reinterpret scriptures to fit our beliefs, because that assumes someone had the correct interpretation and we changed their interpretation. That did not happen. Both the Jews and the Christians misinterpreted the prophecies for the Messiah so they missed the Messiah when He came; kind of like missing the broad side of a barn, but that is what happens when people are looking for a .Messiah made in their own image. Jews and Christians will just keep waiting and waiting and waiting and waiting for all of eternity, because their Messiahs are not coming. :(

Baha'is do not need ancient scriptures to fit our beliefs about what the Truth is because we already know what the Truth is as per the *current* revelation from God, the Revelation of Baha'u'llah. There is also Truth in the older scriptures, but it is not the Truth that humanity needs for this day, which is the unity of mankind. That is one reason God sent the Messiah.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

John 16:12-13 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Why do you quote the Bible and the NT so much? You say you haven't read it, studied it or care about it, when obviously you know a lot about it. Anybody can find something in the Bible and build a bunch of belief around it.

You read the supposed fulfilled prophecies Matthew and tell me how they are not completely out of context. Very early on Christians built a religion that even Baha'is say had false beliefs and doctrines. Why should a Jew have converted? For a Christian reading about the beliefs of the Baha'i Faith, there is no way that the Baha'i Faith fits into what they believe to be the truth about Jesus and about his return. Baha'is have a totally different interpretation of the Bible and the NT. You say it is not a "reinterpretation" fine. But it ain't the same and it changes most all Christian doctrines.

And about "waiting and waiting", bring peace and harmony to the world and then talk. There is still wars and rumors of wars and Jesus said that as long as that is happening that it is not yet the end. Or, is that the wrong interpretation?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
The comment was a winner by itself, it to me does not need any other reference. I was not connecting it to any other post.

To me it rightly says that Man makes his own troubles.

Regards Tony
I'm asking you about animals eating each other. Microbes killing people. Even a mosquito bite can give a person a deadly disease. How did man cause that "trouble"? How do you see the beauty of the hurricane flattening a city? Those are the things I want you to tell me how you can see the "beauty' in it? At least Christians have Satan and a fallen world to blame. All Baha'is have is God. Your God made the world like this. To test humans? Then what kind of tests does your God have planned in the next world? Or is it only in this world that he created lots of pain and suffering for some and not for others? We have Central American family that walked hundreds of miles to get to the U.S. A father and his daughter tried to swim across the Rio Grande and drowned. Where's the beauty in that? Ok, maybe that is man making his own troubles, but God made the river.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
CG, they all had the truth relative to the age they were given and the collective capacity of the human mind.

This is the age of all Truth and the age of peace.

That is found in the Message of Baha'u'llah.

P/S Just drove 850k for a course ha ha

Regards Tony
Ok, Christianity had the truth relative for the age. What was that truth?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Why do you quote the Bible and the NT so much? You say you haven't read it, studied it or care about it, when obviously you know a lot about it. Anybody can find something in the Bible and build a bunch of belief around it.
I have posted to a lot of Christians, mostly on other forums, and that is why I know as much as I do about the Bible. I have to look up verses in order to have a discussion.
You read the supposed fulfilled prophecies Matthew and tell me how they are not completely out of context. Very early on Christians built a religion that even Baha'is say had false beliefs and doctrines. Why should a Jew have converted? For a Christian reading about the beliefs of the Baha'i Faith, there is no way that the Baha'i Faith fits into what they believe to be the truth about Jesus and about his return. Baha'is have a totally different interpretation of the Bible and the NT. You say it is not a "reinterpretation" fine. But it ain't the same and it changes most all Christian doctrines.
I view it from a logical standpoint. The Christian doctrines were either true or false. Everyone has to look at the evidence and decide that for themselves. Of course a Christian is not going to believe in the Baha'i Faith, they are waiting for Jesus to return. That is the crux of the issue isn't it? It is the bottom line. I just ended a long discussion on my forum with a Christian and most of the disagreement is because he believes that Jesus is the King who will rule on the throne of David on earth and Baha'u'llah took away His glory. But Jesus never promised to return, He just didn't. Look at the thread I started last weekend:
What do these Bible verses mean?
And about "waiting and waiting", bring peace and harmony to the world and then talk. There is still wars and rumors of wars and Jesus said that as long as that is happening that it is not yet the end. Or, is that the wrong interpretation?
Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

I see that as meaning that would happen before Christ returned. That was going on before the Bab and Baha'u'llah came, but it is such a nonspecific prophecy that it is pretty worthless. There are always wars and rumors of wars.

Baha'u'llah said we could have had the Most Great Peace if the Kings and rulers had recognized Him, but they didn't so He said we would have to settle for the Lesser Peace. This is the Messianic Age which will last no less than 500,000 years. You cannot expect peace and harmony to be established in 155 years.

“God’s purpose is none other than to usher in, in ways He alone can bring about, and the full significance of which He alone can fathom, the Great, the Golden Age of a long-divided, a long-afflicted humanity. Its present state, indeed even its immediate future, is dark, distressingly dark. Its distant future, however, is radiant, gloriously radiant—so radiant that no eye can visualize it......

What we witness at the present time, during “this gravest crisis in the history of civilization,” recalling such times in which “religions have perished and are born,” is the adolescent stage in the slow and painful evolution of humanity, preparatory to the attainment of the stage of manhood, the stage of maturity, the promise of which is embedded in the teachings, and enshrined in the prophecies, of Bahá’u’lláh. The tumult of this age of transition is characteristic of the impetuosity and irrational instincts of youth, its follies, its prodigality, its pride, its self-assurance, its rebelliousness, and contempt of discipline.”
The Promised Day is Come, pp. 116-117
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
All Baha'is have is God. Your God made the world like this. To test humans? Then what kind of tests does your God have planned in the next world? Or is it only in this world that he created lots of pain and suffering for some and not for others? We have Central American family that walked hundreds of miles to get to the U.S. A father and his daughter tried to swim across the Rio Grande and drowned. Where's the beauty in that? Ok, maybe that is man making his own troubles, but God made the river.
I agree. God made a material world that is a storehouse of suffering and there is more suffering for some people than for others. It would be enough to make me an atheist if I did not believe in Baha'u'llah. :mad: It is not Baha'u'llah's fault that God made this world the way He did.

There will be no more suffering in the spiritual world if we play our cards right in this world, but a lot of good that does us now. :rolleyes:

“Death proffereth unto every confident believer the cup that is life indeed. It bestoweth joy, and is the bearer of gladness. It conferreth the gift of everlasting life.

As to those that have tasted of the fruit of man’s earthly existence, which is the recognition of the one true God, exalted be His glory, their life hereafter is such as We are unable to describe. The knowledge thereof is with God, alone, the Lord of all worlds.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 345-346


Unable to describe... It would have been nice if Baha'u'llah described the next life because that would have helped me get through this life.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Ok, Christianity had the truth relative for the age. What was that truth?

Build strong families and communities in the Love of God. Serve each other, turn the other cheek. Spread that message to all Nations.

Muhammad came to correct the path Christianity had taken in doctrine and expanded service to building strong nations.

When that started going wrong, along came the Bab and Baha'u'llah to show us how to serve all humanity.

Regards Tony
 

sooda

Veteran Member
I see for us, in this life, the Ultimate Truth is acceptance of God's Messengers. That opens a door on another journey.

I see that acceptance opens endless possibilities and I have also noted that the exceptance requires total submission to what is the Truth and that many of us find that very, very hard to achieve.

Regards Tony

Interesting .. I get it, but it doesn't take into consideration false messengers and charlatans like Hal Lindsey ..
 

JJ50

Well-Known Member
Build strong families and communities in the Love of God. Serve each other, turn the other cheek. Spread that message to all Nations.

Muhammad came to correct the path Christianity had taken in doctrine and expanded service to building strong nations.

When that started going wrong, along came the Bab and Baha'u'llah to show us how to serve all humanity.

Regards Tony

The so called 'love' of the Biblical god is more akin to hate, imo.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
The world rejected the Messiah; Jesus, when he came because his message of the inner man conflicted with the easier path of worldly external pretension.

For example, if you were an imbecile, but had lots of money, you have the external social means to create the image of being a brilliant builder. Even though you have no such skills, you can hire and/or lease skilled people to do for you, and then get credit by your peers, for their accomplishments, with your money.

Or if you were a celebrity, you can be a nasty degenerate human being, but your celebrity causes your fans to give you unconditional love and constant ego reinforcement and inflation. In both cases, neither is based on inner worth.

Jesus had suggested blessed are the poor and the humble. This would put the imbecile and nasty person in a bind, since they do not have the inner worth to get the same results internally. The path of the world, on the other hand, could be used to create social illusions to compensate for lack of inner worth. Once you achieve money, power and celebrity, in the world, by any means, this can be leveraged beyond your own inner reality.

The anticipated Messiah of the Old Testament was supposed to be powerful, rich and have the prestige of being the king of Kings. This image of a Messiah would have been followed, since he epitomized the worldly approach. Jesus, on the other hand, suggested a path that was in contradiction and made the shallow people nervous.

Christianity, instead, was called the religion of the slaves, since a slave, by default, had no wealth and could not use the social illusions of fame or power, since they were slaves. By default, they had to develop self esteem, personality and skill from within, since all the worldly options were not open to them.

In modern time, it would be like a Messiah telling people to give up collecting likes on Facebook or Twitter, that build up a false sense of self esteem, though predefined social feedback games. Most would be afraid to stop, since what is inside them was never fully developed because of this prosthesis.
 

JJ50

Well-Known Member
The gospel writers created the character of Jesus and turned him into the promised Messiah, imo. I suspect the real Jesus was nothing like the Jesus portrayed in the gospels.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
The world rejected the Messiah; Jesus, when he came because his message of the inner man conflicted with the easier path of worldly external pretension.

For example, if you were an imbecile, but had lots of money, you have the external social means to create the image of being a brilliant builder. Even though you have no such skills, you can hire and/or lease skilled people to do for you, and then get credit by your peers, for their accomplishments, with your money.

Or if you were a celebrity, you can be a nasty degenerate human being, but your celebrity causes your fans to give you unconditional love and constant ego reinforcement and inflation. In both cases, neither is based on inner worth.

Jesus had suggested blessed are the poor and the humble. This would put the imbecile and nasty person in a bind, since they do not have the inner worth to get the same results internally. The path of the world, on the other hand, could be used to create social illusions to compensate for lack of inner worth. Once you achieve money, power and celebrity, in the world, by any means, this can be leveraged beyond your own inner reality.

The anticipated Messiah of the Old Testament was supposed to be powerful, rich and have the prestige of being the king of Kings. This image of a Messiah would have been followed, since he epitomized the worldly approach. Jesus, on the other hand, suggested a path that was in contradiction and made the shallow people nervous.

Christianity, instead, was called the religion of the slaves, since a slave, by default, had no wealth and could not use the social illusions of fame or power, since they were slaves. By default, they had to develop self esteem, personality and skill from within, since all the worldly options were not open to them.

In modern time, it would be like a Messiah telling people to give up collecting likes on Facebook or Twitter, that build up a false sense of self esteem, though predefined social feedback games. Most would be afraid to stop, since what is inside them was never fully developed because of this prosthesis.

The anticipated messiah was to be an anointed warrior king like David who would defeat the enemies and oppressors of Israel.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Interesting .. I get it, but it doesn't take into consideration false messengers and charlatans like Hal Lindsey ..
Logically speaking, the fact that there have been many false messengers does not mean that there have not been True Messengers of God.

Matthew 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Fruits: the pleasant or successful result of work or actions: FRUIT | meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Logically speaking, the fact that there have been many false messengers does not mean that there have not been True Messengers of God.

Matthew 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Fruits: the pleasant or successful result of work or actions: FRUIT | meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary

Matthew becomes a false messenger himself when he cops Hosea 3 and makes it about Jesus instead of Israel. By fiddling with scripture Matthew makes it political.. Wasn't Jesus enough on his own?
 
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