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God of awe or God of love?

InChrist

Free4ever
I always try my best see things from multiple perspectives, as I try to live by the adage, everyone has a piece of the truth. I am trying to see things fairly that being afraid of punishment from God leads to loving God. I struggle with this, as I see that someone who fears God, in the sense of being afraid of the terrifying prospect of divine punishment, are beginning with a self-facing act of self-preservation. It is based in fear. And that is the problem.

It becomes especially troublesome that you come out of fear to the one whom you are afraid of. It has this tone of abusive relationship attached to it. It's not the case of "I'm afraid of dying and never having truly lived," sort of fear. That's fear of having wasted the gift of one's own life. That is self-reflective. That is self-honesty. That is true repentance. And one comes to the arms of Love, to God, to find Truth and Peace.

That is very different than, "I'm afraid God will send me to the flames of a unimaginable eternal punishment for endless tortures," which then results in running to that God, pleading, "Please, don't hurt me! I'll love you! I swear it. Just don't do that to me like you do to others! I'll be good, I promise.".

That scenario, I fail to see how the bedrock foundation of that relationship can possibly move from being terrified of God, to knowing God as a God of Love. I don't see how it can, because in the mind of the pleader, that God is not unconditional Love at all since he is capable of such terrifying things. At best you may have a "faithful" loyalty, but that is not true Liberation at all. This is what you see in abusive relationships. That's not real love.

So, yes, fear of destruction may inspire someone to change, but fear of destruction by God on the other hand, while it may lead to change, it is not an inner transformation which occurs through freedom of spirit in the arms of unconditional love. It is very much conditional love if God actually throws people into this imagery hell that cannot exist in God, because God is Love.


A reverence and awe of God, a worship of God in this sense, very much does lead someone to humility, and hopefully to personal transformation through that. I do not see a fear of God in the sense of afraid of God leading to any of those. It's completely motivated by saving your own skin, seeing God as threatening to your existence.

It's not motivated by willful surrender of one's own life to God, for the sake of God's Love alone. It is not wishing to experience true freedom from fear in the arms of Absolute Love. It has the self front and center as the focus. And while someone may "humble themselves", bowing obediently before the Great Terror before them, that is not genuine humility. That's being humiliated and abased. There is a radical difference between the two. I can't stress that enough. One leads to God and Liberation, the other to enslavement to fear, or to use the metaphor, to hell.


Yes, read in the light of genuine, non-fear based awe and respect, the verses sing truth. Especially that last one. "Perfect love casts out all fear." God is perfect Love. God's love draws, it doesn't force. Threats of hell, is force.
I like and agree with many of your thoughts concerning God being a Being of Love. Obviously, the love of God is revealed throughout the scriptures. I just don't see it as that simple, since God is also shown to a the ultimate Judge.
It would be so nice if humans simply responded in love to God and one another, but that is not always the reality of human nature. Everyday we see that is not the case. Some individuals are so consumed with self that they go to any length to use, abuse, or harm others just to get what they want or accomplish their own ends.

When a criminal faces a Judge in a courtroom for heinous crimes they have committed I think is is normal and proper, if they have any conscience left, for such a criminal to have a sense of fear, rather than simply assume...oh I know that judge is such an easy-going, nice, loving person I will get off easy, no worries.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I like and agree with many of your thoughts concerning God being a Being of Love. Obviously, the love of God is revealed throughout the scriptures.
Thank you, and I agree. The God of Love is found in scriptures, as in life itself. But not exclusively so.

I just don't see it as that simple, since God is also shown to a the ultimate Judge.
But what does ultimate Judge, or Justice really mean? Vengeance? Retaliation? Smiting? Slaughtering? Annihilating, blood, death, destruction, torture, kill, kill, kill, etc.? I don't believe so.

It would be so nice if humans simply responded in love to God and one another, but that is not always the reality of human nature. Everyday we see that is not the case. Some individuals are so consumed with self that they go to any length to use, abuse, or harm others just to get what they want or accomplish their own ends.
Of course, all this is true. But guess what? God responds with love to all of this. Even in the most selfish states we take in our ignorance. All the harm we do to ourselves and others. In all of this, God is Love. And yes, humans can respond like this too in such situations. "I can do all things through Christ," right? If God can do it, so can we, since we are made in the image of God.

When a criminal faces a Judge in a courtroom for heinous crimes they have committed I think is is normal and proper, if they have any conscience left, for such a criminal to have a sense of fear, rather than simply assume...oh I know that judge is such an easy-going, nice, loving person I will get off easy, no worries.
That is not what God's Justice is about. It's not about a court of law as part of human societies. That is an a projection of human culture on Divine Justice. It's the other way around actually. God's love is there to save us from the results of the notions of human justice projected onto God. Eye for an eye, is not the way of God. Retribution is not the way of God. Jesus taught this.

Yet, you have the book of Revelation with Jesus dripping in the blood he spilled. What are we to do about that contradiction?
 

JJ50

Well-Known Member
As I have said boringly often, I cannot see anything to love about the Biblical god character.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Thank you, and I agree. The God of Love is found in scriptures, as in life itself. But not exclusively so.


But what does ultimate Judge, or Justice really mean? Vengeance? Retaliation? Smiting? Slaughtering? Annihilating, blood, death, destruction, torture, kill, kill, kill, etc.? I don't believe so.


Of course, all this is true. But guess what? God responds with love to all of this. Even in the most selfish states we take in our ignorance. All the harm we do to ourselves and others. In all of this, God is Love. And yes, humans can respond like this too in such situations. "I can do all things through Christ," right? If God can do it, so can we, since we are made in the image of God.


That is not what God's Justice is about. It's not about a court of law as part of human societies. That is an a projection of human culture on Divine Justice. It's the other way around actually. God's love is there to save us from the results of the notions of human justice projected onto God. Eye for an eye, is not the way of God. Retribution is not the way of God. Jesus taught this.

Yet, you have the book of Revelation with Jesus dripping in the blood he spilled. What are we to do about that contradiction?

I don't see a contradiction. I see a perfect balance between God's Love and Justice.
Since I don't know what verse/passage you are referring to about "Jesus dripping in the blood he spilled", I can't comment on that.

It is true humans can respond in love and do all things through Christ if that is their desire, yet the reality is that some people ...refuse Christ and choose to continue in destructive behavior. I don't believe God is waiting to pour out wrath, death, destruction, etc. On the contrary I believe God gives opportunity after opportunity for each person to turn and be free from behavior which harms themselves and others, as He desires that none should perish, but be free in Christ for the new heaven and new earth where sin, harmful behavior, and evil will not exist.
 
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Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I don't see a contradiction. I see a perfect balance between God's Love and Justice.
Since I don't know what verse/passage you are referring to about "Jesus dripping in the blood he spilled", I can't comment on that.
But how are you defining justice? What human cultures predominantly tend to call justice is not the same thing as what is described as divine justice. Vengeance and retaliation, payback, eye for an eye, punishment (as opposed to correction), etc, is a retributive justice. Divine justice on the other hand, is the opposite of this. It is not about smiting your enemies, but rather about fairness to all, both the good and the bad. It's not about payback, "now you'll get yours!" That is contrary to the nature of the Divine. Divine justice is a distributive justice, that those who are low will be elevated, and those who are unduly exalted will be leveled back that all are equal in God's kingdom.

These two are not two faces of God's justice. They are contradictions. They are incompatible. They are opposites. I'll try to explain why, drawing off my own personal experience, as well as knowledge of scripture.

For instance, Jesus teaches to love your enemies, to pray or do good to those who harm you, etc. He even goes so far in scripture to pray in his dying breath to forgive the very ones who crucified him, with divine wisdom and compassion speaking, "They know not what they do". This is the perfection of Love. This is divine love.

Imagine instead that scene and the gospel writer having Jesus say instead, "You're going to get yours for this! I will crush you and squeeze the blood out of your bodies with a river of your blood and those like you whom I hate running 180 miles! Vengeance is mine!! I shall return and reign over you with an iron fist, smashing those who opposed me!"

Doesn't exactly carry the same inspiration for love to emerge in us, does it? In fact, in works contrary to love, stirring imaginations of payback, letting our inner rage imagine the worst for our enemies. This is not a path of love, but a path of victimhood and human rage seeking vengeance. As the old saying goes, the dog who wins in a fight is the dog you feed. "Love your enemies", inspires us to feed the dog of Love. "God will destroy you, and I can't wait," feeds the dog of our own hatred and anger. Hatred works against love. You cannot be both happy and angry at the same time. Right?

So you asked where is that verse in the Bible. I'll share that here by way of providing some contradictory images of Jesus you find from different authors at different times with their respective views of Christ and what he should look like to them:

The Path of Love Jesus

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor i and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.​

Vengeful Payback For All Your Wrongs Jesus

His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.
....

The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath. They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses’ bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia.
...

And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”​

How can there be any meaning to guide and teach us the path of love and compassion and forgiveness, when we are to believe he is capable of this? Children learn through examples, not just empty words. If Jesus tells his children, do not hate but love, and then we read about him slaughtering people, dipping his robes in a river of blood five feet deep and 180 miles long that he created, feeding the corpses of his slain enemies to vulture and celebrating their deaths with a shout to heaven in praise of God, what are we to think?

Imagine a child growing up in a home with a parent who taught them to love your enemies, and then sees them doing this? Which do you think they will listen to? "But dad, you stuck that knife into that guys throat for dissing you, why can't I do that to Billy who beats me up all the time. You're not exactly loving yourself, are you?" That's reality.

These are contradictory ideas of God's justice. Both are found in the Bible. But is that latter image from the Jewish Apocalyptic Christian John of Patmos (not Gospel John author), the nature of Jesus of Nazareth who started a following, teaching that the kingdom of God had already arrived in the world through non-violent resistance to human injustices in cooperation with the Spirit of God? No, it is not.

That image is itself the same injustice of human society, only with the oppressed now becoming the oppressors. That's not a change in operation at all. It's simply switching who has the power over who now. That is not Divine Justice where all have the power, and all are fed, and clothed, and supported, and loved, and corrected non-violently. Blood, begets blood. Vengeance begets vengeance. Love stops this, not by force, but through persuasion, through invitation. The teachings of Jesus are to say no to that world system of force and violence.

When we look in ourselves, we know the energies each of these generate. How good do you feel inside after you've spent time imaging paying back your enemies for the harm they've done you, and what you'd like to see happen to them in return as they get their "just dues", as we imagine? Do you feel better, or worse. I'll answer that myself. You feel far worse. You may feel the andrenelization of all of it, but that is not peace. It's merely a distraction from feeling your own pain. Hatred is not the path that Jesus taught. Just because that book appears in the Bible, does not mean it is consistent with the nature of the teachings of Jesus, such as those found in the Beatitudes. They contradict it.

I don't need to believe the Bible is perfect, in order to believe in the Perfection of God. The Spirit within bears witness to what is Truth, what comes from Itself. And Love, is that witness. Love does no harm.

It is true humans can respond in love and do all things through Christ if that is their desire, yet the reality is that some people ...refuse Christ and choose to continue in destructive behavior.
We all refuse God to one degree or another in our lives. This is why it is a path of constant surrender for everyone, no matter how far along on the path one is. Should I judge another as "refusing God", as if I don't do the same thing? Compassion teaches that when we recognize our own sins, we don't then assume they are "bad" people, and we are somehow not ourselves anymore. That to me sounds like we haven't really recognized and come to terms with forgiving ourselves. But God's love is captured well here, "Where are your accusers? Neither do I condemn you".

Even if someone continues in their destructive behaviors, and we all have these, saints and sinners alike, these are degrees of our awakenness, or growth, or spiritual maturities. We shouldn't imagine that, "I'm saved!", as if that means "I'm good now. Jesus fixed me". That's still a bit in the denial stage. They're feet aren't quite firmly on the path yet. ;) Rather, their being "in darkness", is not a judgment of condemnation. But rather, it is a call for compassion to understand, support, and help your neighbor. These are the core teachings of Jesus of Nazareth.

I don't believe God is waiting to pour out wrath, death, destruction, etc. On the contrary I believe God gives opportunity after opportunity for each person to turn and be free from behavior which harms themselves and others, as He desires that none should perish, but be free in Christ for the new heaven and new earth where sin, harmful behavior, and evil will not exist.
I don't believe God has wrath at all, let alone pours it out in vengeance on even his "enemies". God is Love, absolute Love. Evil, of which hate, malice, spite, vengeance, and personal payback for wrongs, does not, and cannot exit in God. That is contrary to the nature of God and Divine Love and Justice,

"But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous."​

That is Truth. The Spirit bears Witness. "Love works no ill".
 

InChrist

Free4ever
But how are you defining justice? What human cultures predominantly tend to call justice is not the same thing as what is described as divine justice. Vengeance and retaliation, payback, eye for an eye, punishment (as opposed to correction), etc, is a retributive justice. Divine justice on the other hand, is the opposite of this. It is not about smiting your enemies, but rather about fairness to all, both the good and the bad. It's not about payback, "now you'll get yours!" That is contrary to the nature of the Divine. Divine justice is a distributive justice, that those who are low will be elevated, and those who are unduly exalted will be leveled back that all are equal in God's kingdom.

These two are not two faces of God's justice. They are contradictions. They are incompatible. They are opposites. I'll try to explain why, drawing off my own personal experience, as well as knowledge of scripture.

For instance, Jesus teaches to love your enemies, to pray or do good to those who harm you, etc. He even goes so far in scripture to pray in his dying breath to forgive the very ones who crucified him, with divine wisdom and compassion speaking, "They know not what they do". This is the perfection of Love. This is divine love.

Imagine instead that scene and the gospel writer having Jesus say instead, "You're going to get yours for this! I will crush you and squeeze the blood out of your bodies with a river of your blood and those like you whom I hate running 180 miles! Vengeance is mine!! I shall return and reign over you with an iron fist, smashing those who opposed me!"

Doesn't exactly carry the same inspiration for love to emerge in us, does it? In fact, in works contrary to love, stirring imaginations of payback, letting our inner rage imagine the worst for our enemies. This is not a path of love, but a path of victimhood and human rage seeking vengeance. As the old saying goes, the dog who wins in a fight is the dog you feed. "Love your enemies", inspires us to feed the dog of Love. "God will destroy you, and I can't wait," feeds the dog of our own hatred and anger. Hatred works against love. You cannot be both happy and angry at the same time. Right?

So you asked where is that verse in the Bible. I'll share that here by way of providing some contradictory images of Jesus you find from different authors at different times with their respective views of Christ and what he should look like to them:

The Path of Love Jesus

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor i and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.​

Vengeful Payback For All Your Wrongs Jesus

His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.
....

The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath. They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses’ bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia.
...

And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”​

How can there be any meaning to guide and teach us the path of love and compassion and forgiveness, when we are to believe he is capable of this? Children learn through examples, not just empty words. If Jesus tells his children, do not hate but love, and then we read about him slaughtering people, dipping his robes in a river of blood five feet deep and 180 miles long that he created, feeding the corpses of his slain enemies to vulture and celebrating their deaths with a shout to heaven in praise of God, what are we to think?

Imagine a child growing up in a home with a parent who taught them to love your enemies, and then sees them doing this? Which do you think they will listen to? "But dad, you stuck that knife into that guys throat for dissing you, why can't I do that to Billy who beats me up all the time. You're not exactly loving yourself, are you?" That's reality.

These are contradictory ideas of God's justice. Both are found in the Bible. But is that latter image from the Jewish Apocalyptic Christian John of Patmos (not Gospel John author), the nature of Jesus of Nazareth who started a following, teaching that the kingdom of God had already arrived in the world through non-violent resistance to human injustices in cooperation with the Spirit of God? No, it is not.

That image is itself the same injustice of human society, only with the oppressed now becoming the oppressors. That's not a change in operation at all. It's simply switching who has the power over who now. That is not Divine Justice where all have the power, and all are fed, and clothed, and supported, and loved, and corrected non-violently. Blood, begets blood. Vengeance begets vengeance. Love stops this, not by force, but through persuasion, through invitation. The teachings of Jesus are to say no to that world system of force and violence.

When we look in ourselves, we know the energies each of these generate. How good do you feel inside after you've spent time imaging paying back your enemies for the harm they've done you, and what you'd like to see happen to them in return as they get their "just dues", as we imagine? Do you feel better, or worse. I'll answer that myself. You feel far worse. You may feel the andrenelization of all of it, but that is not peace. It's merely a distraction from feeling your own pain. Hatred is not the path that Jesus taught. Just because that book appears in the Bible, does not mean it is consistent with the nature of the teachings of Jesus, such as those found in the Beatitudes. They contradict it.

I don't need to believe the Bible is perfect, in order to believe in the Perfection of God. The Spirit within bears witness to what is Truth, what comes from Itself. And Love, is that witness. Love does no harm.


We all refuse God to one degree or another in our lives. This is why it is a path of constant surrender for everyone, no matter how far along on the path one is. Should I judge another as "refusing God", as if I don't do the same thing? Compassion teaches that when we recognize our own sins, we don't then assume they are "bad" people, and we are somehow not ourselves anymore. That to me sounds like we haven't really recognized and come to terms with forgiving ourselves. But God's love is captured well here, "Where are your accusers? Neither do I condemn you".

Even if someone continues in their destructive behaviors, and we all have these, saints and sinners alike, these are degrees of our awakenness, or growth, or spiritual maturities. We shouldn't imagine that, "I'm saved!", as if that means "I'm good now. Jesus fixed me". That's still a bit in the denial stage. They're feet aren't quite firmly on the path yet. ;) Rather, their being "in darkness", is not a judgment of condemnation. But rather, it is a call for compassion to understand, support, and help your neighbor. These are the core teachings of Jesus of Nazareth.


I don't believe God has wrath at all, let alone pours it out in vengeance on even his "enemies". God is Love, absolute Love. Evil, of which hate, malice, spite, vengeance, and personal payback for wrongs, does not, and cannot exit in God. That is contrary to the nature of God and Divine Love and Justice,

"But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous."​

That is Truth. The Spirit bears Witness. "Love works no ill".
What do you believe will occur with those who choose never to turn from darkness to light, those who have no desire but to persist in hurting others for their own self gain?
 

JJ50

Well-Known Member
What do you believe will occur with those who choose never to turn from darkness to light, those who have no desire but to persist in hurting others for their own self gain?
Many religious people deliberately abuse others because they get off on it.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What do you believe will occur with those who choose never to turn from darkness to light, those who have no desire but to persist in hurting others for their own self gain?
I'll attempt to explain my thoughts by quoting from Jesus to begin with.

"Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. "
If we live our life in service of our own egoic needs, chasing our own tails in the dark as it were, we do not have the reward of the Spirit of God, which is a liberation from the need for all of that. We're getting our reward, which is empty and unfulfilling by contrast. This is what Jesus is pointing to above. "They have received their reward", which is nothing but handfuls of empty praises, grains of dry sand that slips through the fingers after the applause of others dies and fades. We are left with an empty vessel. That reward for all those projects, is an empty cup of meaninglessness. None of it had any true reward.

Why should it be necessary, or be considered just, to take someone who through their own fears or shames, guilts, arrogance, etc., avoided that ultimate confrontation with their own souls before the Infinite, who already have misery, to then burn them alive with fire for their failure to themselves on top of that? They have already lost. They are already in darkness. They are already suffering. What exactly would be the purpose for God to torture them, when they are already in their own hell? Payback for failing God and themselves and others? Isn't that failure it's own suffering in itself?

There is no need for retribution for sins. Sin creates its own consequences. If you put your hand on a hot stove, you get burned by that action. There is no need for God to then punish you. You're own actions afflicted yourself as a result of basic human consequences for wrong actions.

God on the other hand, rather than waiting at the door with a baseball bat to crack your skull open for "disobeying him", remains there to receive you in the arms of Love when you are done trying to do stuff in ways that continually hurt yourself. That is a sharp contrast in images of God. I see God as always there, just waiting with Love for you do be done doing all this other stuff which only brings about misery and pain to yourself and others. It's our own actions that threaten us. It's not God who threatens, but promises his Presence to be with us, always.

The Divine does not, and never will, force itself upon anyone. Let alone, torture someone for their failures. God is always there to pick you up, not take you with your misery and thrown you down a flight of stairs because you pissed him off (wrath). Being there at all times, with Love, Compassion, and Forgiveness, is the nature of God. No matter what our failures, when we are done trying to build ourselves up through our ego projects, God is always there. God never is not there. It's only us who isn't availing ourselves of that free gift. And we have our reward, which is void and full of our own misery.
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
How often have you heard people saying there are two Gods in the Bible, the "fearsome" God of the Tanakh (OT) and the God of love in the Christian portion?

Jews refer to God as Avinu Malkenu, Our Father Our King. In fact, during these High Holy Days of autumn, this prayer becomes especially dear to us.

I would argue that either Our King or Our Father alone without the other is entirely unbalanced. We must have both sides in order to experience the fullness of HaShem.

It's not just that both sides are in the scripture (and they are -- this nonsense that the God of the Tanakh is all fear and no love is baseless). It's that fear without love is horrifying, and love without discipline is sick.

In the metaphor of Father, we have a God who is on a higher plane than us, an who wishes what is best for us. He therefore sets boundaries for us, and consequences if we deviate from the rules, as any good parent does. In saying he is King of the Universe, we acknowledge his awesome power -- and his restraint. He does not wish to punish, he wishes for our repentance so that he can forgive. But truly, he holds the very fabric of the universe together -- and can destroy it in a moment should he wish. That kind of power has to be respected. In reality, human beings fall flat on our faces when we encounter the much lesser power of angels. How much more overwhelming would we feel in the presence of the Almighty? Yet we also respond to his love. Those who study such things say that "worship" is when we feel fear and joy simultaneously.


Fear is generated from the unknown. Anyone who really knows God has no fear. Further, with God, there is no need of rules, punishment, condemning, blaming or forgiveness.These are all mankind concepts.

God is at a Higher Level. God does not value the petty things mankind holds so dear. God is Unconditional Love. Unconditional Love always does what is best for the other. God will educate His children within the realm of His children's free will. Yes, pretty remarkable.

That's what I am seeing.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
I'll attempt to explain my thoughts by quoting from Jesus to begin with.

"Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. "
If we live our life in service of our own egoic needs, chasing our own tails in the dark as it were, we do not have the reward of the Spirit of God, which is a liberation from the need for all of that. We're getting our reward, which is empty and unfulfilling by contrast. This is what Jesus is pointing to above. "They have received their reward", which is nothing but handfuls of empty praises, grains of dry sand that slips through the fingers after the applause of others dies and fades. We are left with an empty vessel. That reward for all those projects, is an empty cup of meaninglessness. None of it had any true reward.

Why should it be necessary, or be considered just, to take someone who through their own fears or shames, guilts, arrogance, etc., avoided that ultimate confrontation with their own souls before the Infinite, who already have misery, to then burn them alive with fire for their failure to themselves on top of that? They have already lost. They are already in darkness. They are already suffering. What exactly would be the purpose for God to torture them, when they are already in their own hell? Payback for failing God and themselves and others? Isn't that failure it's own suffering in itself?

There is no need for retribution for sins. Sin creates its own consequences. If you put your hand on a hot stove, you get burned by that action. There is no need for God to then punish you. You're own actions afflicted yourself as a result of basic human consequences for wrong actions.

God on the other hand, rather than waiting at the door with a baseball bat to crack your skull open for "disobeying him", remains there to receive you in the arms of Love when you are done trying to do stuff in ways that continually hurt yourself. That is a sharp contrast in images of God. I see God as always there, just waiting with Love for you do be done doing all this other stuff which only brings about misery and pain to yourself and others. It's our own actions that threaten us. It's not God who threatens, but promises his Presence to be with us, always.

The Divine does not, and never will, force itself upon anyone. Let alone, torture someone for their failures. God is always there to pick you up, not take you with your misery and thrown you down a flight of stairs because you pissed him off (wrath). Being there at all times, with Love, Compassion, and Forgiveness, is the nature of God. No matter what our failures, when we are done trying to build ourselves up through our ego projects, God is always there. God never is not there. It's only us who isn't availing ourselves of that free gift. And we have our reward, which is void and full of our own misery.
I have said repeatedly on this forum, that the scriptures no where indicate that God "tortures" anyone. The Bible uses the the word torment and from what I read in the scriptures I see that this is self torment. You touched on this when you said, "It's only us who isn't availing ourselves of that free gift. And we have our reward, which is void and full of our own misery." I happen to see that, this void, this misery a person brings on themselves and occurs in the eternal sense when one continues over and over again to reject God's Presence, their heart and mind become consumed with evil to the point that they would never choose to be in God's Presence and this is where eternal suffering or self torment comes in ...because we were created to exist, be sustained, find joy and love in God's Presence, so be be separated by one's one's choice and continual refusal brings on eternal self torment.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I have said repeatedly on this forum, that the scriptures no where indicate that God "tortures" anyone. The Bible uses the the word torment and from what I read in the scriptures I see that this is self torment. You touched on this when you said, "It's only us who isn't availing ourselves of that free gift. And we have our reward, which is void and full of our own misery." I happen to see that, this void, this misery a person brings on themselves and occurs in the eternal sense when one continues over and over again to reject God's Presence, their heart and mind become consumed with evil to the point that they would never choose to be in God's Presence and this is where eternal suffering or self torment comes in ...because we were created to exist, be sustained, find joy and love in God's Presence, so be be separated by one's one's choice and continual refusal brings on eternal self torment.
Yeah. What you described is despair. This is the point before death, where one shakes their fist in desperation, "Why have you forsaken me?", and they deny God out of pure despondency. Yes, I agree. It is a hell of their own choice, and God does not "condemn" them there. They have condemned themselves through their own bitterness and unwillingness to let go. I completely agree with this.

Hell is not a creation of God. It's a creation of our own despair.

So, then to our discussion so far, in that I agree with you here, which let's be honest, is probably a milestone in our discussions over the years. This God which I see here, which does not create a hell to throw others into because he is upset they didn't listen to him when he said do this and don't do that, cannot be reconciled with a version of God which does. I was confronted with this as I dug deeply into scripture, finding rays of Truth, along with terror of God as presented by some who saw and related to that, the abusive God part of scripture, the blood-soaked Victor of battle slaying the impure. These are not compatible. They cannot be reconciled.

Take from that what you will. It is the core of what I struggled with in trying to find that God that I met, with the contradictions of scripture to the very nature of the Divine. I can tell you without doubt, God is Love. Smiting your enemies, instead of loving them, is not Truth.
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
And I would say that if you have never felt any fear at all, you have never had a true encounter with God.


In reality, the opposite is true. Everyone already knows God. It's always comfortable. God is not how mankind describes.

I will say a couple of things. First is about names. Names are not needed. Everybody already knows who everyone is. Next, God's intellect is off the scale. God is working on multiple levels with multiple views. I true conversation with God might take one a week to realize what all was said in just a few minutes. Further, there is no telling how much one did not realize. Still, God is Unconditional Love. God is not threatening in any way. Finally, God is above the petty things mankind holds so dear such as ruling, controlling, blaming, judging,condemning, punishing, hating,intimidation, coercing and such. It's a joy being around anyone who doesn't carry around all that petty baggage.

As I see it, you imagine fear only because you speak from the unknown.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
In reality, the opposite is true. Everyone already knows God. It's always comfortable. God is not how mankind describes.

I will say a couple of things. First is about names. Names are not needed. Everybody already knows who everyone is. Next, God's intellect is off the scale. God is working on multiple levels with multiple views. I true conversation with God might take one a week to realize what all was said in just a few minutes. Further, there is no telling how much one did not realize. Still, God is Unconditional Love. God is not threatening in any way. Finally, God is above the petty things mankind holds so dear such as ruling, controlling, blaming, judging,condemning, punishing, hating,intimidation, coercing and such. It's a joy being around anyone who doesn't carry around all that petty baggage.

As I see it, you imagine fear only because you speak from the unknown.
But it is NOT always comfortable. Let's go with the metaphor that God is our father. Sure our Father loves us unconditionally, but what does that mean? It means he sets rules for us, and consequences if we break those rules. He's bigger, and stronger, and if we break the rules we ARE afraid of him. (And we DO break the rules.)
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
But it is NOT always comfortable. Let's go with the metaphor that God is our father. Sure our Father loves us unconditionally, but what does that mean? It means he sets rules for us, and consequences if we break those rules. He's bigger, and stronger, and if we break the rules we ARE afraid of him. (And we DO break the rules.)
Being bigger and stronger that us and being afraid of God, is not unconditional love.

Why are you afraid of God? Did you fear your parents? Were you unsure of their love?
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
But it is NOT always comfortable. Let's go with the metaphor that God is our father. Sure our Father loves us unconditionally, but what does that mean? It means he sets rules for us, and consequences if we break those rules. He's bigger, and stronger, and if we break the rules we ARE afraid of him. (And we DO break the rules.)


God is not the human father you have on Earth. You might be surprised to learn that even though your Earthly father is bigger and stronger, he will learn many many lessons through the interaction with his children. There also sometimes comes a time when age will take that physical strength advantage away from him.

People have been taught to value the petty things mankind holds so dear for so long many can not conceive living without them. In God's system, Brains win. Is it really intelligent to hang onto these petty things? Do you really think God needs to use fear and intimidation or physical pain to alter your actions?

You have much to Learn and Discover before you will Understand. Until then, be afraid if you choose. Your fear will cease when you finally Understand God and God's real actions over mankind's blind beliefs.

Sure, God is everyone's Father,Someone with an IQ off the charts. God's choices are going to be much more intelligent than that Earthly father.

Intelligence exists far beyond you comprehension. God teaches His children through their free will and rules have never been needed. Now that you have no rules, what are you afraid of?

That is what I am seeing.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Being bigger and stronger that us and being afraid of God, is not unconditional love.

Why are you afraid of God? Did you fear your parents? Were you unsure of their love?
Sure it can be. It sounds to me like your idea of unconditional love is love that excuses us for bad behavior, love that can't be tough on us when we need it for our personal growth. THAT is not unconditional love, in fact that is not love at all. THAT is just people doing what is comfortable for them at our expense.

I loved my father unconditionally, and he loved me unconditionally, and yes I was afraid of him at times (usually when I was caught doing something wrong). Let me give you an example.

Just to give you context, my father never raised his voice to me in 17 years growing up. At 17 I had the use of the car, and of course liked to go hang out with my teen friends, including boys. Now my friends liked to hang out until 1 or 2 in the morning, and I noticed that the later we hung out, the more interesting and deeper the conversation got, so I didn't like my 11:00 curfew.

I began to argue with my parents over it. Their response was that it was dangerous for me to be out driving around that late at night. I thought that was stupid. What was going to happen??? Finally my father lost his patience with me. He did raise his voice. "You are young and naive. YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT MEN ARE LIKE." Scared the pants off of me. The argument was over, just like that.

I'll never forget that conversation. Yes, I was afraid of him.
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
How often have you heard people saying there are two Gods in the Bible, the "fearsome" God of the Tanakh (OT) and the God of love in the Christian portion?

I am much more interested in the idea that God was originally a coequal with the Goddess Asherah, who the bible may hint throughout as being his wife. It fills in a very logical gap to me. I think perhaps the failure to maintain Asherah allowed a void to be filled by Mary the mortal woman, and thus allowed for the Jesus story to be created. In dissolving the sort of the earthy corporeal half of the divine, it mutates into a manifestation anyhow, one that you now spend your time arguing against
 
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