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Reason is the Most Important Driver of Human Moral Progress?

Sunstone

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Shadow Wolf said:
Actually the American ideals for that are based on the magna carta. The legal system promoted and practiced by Moses did not resemble what we have today.
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The Magna Carta was at least in part based on English traditions and customs dating back to Alfred the Great and before, and which have never -- so far as I know --- been thought other than more or less uniquely English. It would be quite interesting if anyone were to link those traditions and customs to Moses but I have not heard of anyone who has indeed done so.
 
osgart

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Reason alone is just a mental exercise. The mind alone does not ever make moral progress. Its the heart that drives the mind that needs to evolve and grow past our barbaric nature.

Justification for reasoning resides in the heart of understanding.

Facts can be manipulated any way one chooses.

Until humans recognize the heart reality, then we will suffer in every other way.

Individual freedom and human rights for all is the most worthy fight i can think of.

What to do for the poor and disabled is an enormous issue.

Technology, and prosperity have improved our moral progress. And faced with the opportunity and choice between war and prosperity, people choose prosperity.

Tribal superiority is something to overcome.

Its great to reason accurately about reality, its sorely needed. But the power and freedom we have to imagine a better world will be the inspiration to motivate it.
 
Shadow Wolf

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Sunstone said:
and which have never -- so far as I know --- been thought other than more or less uniquely English.
Click to expand...
That is accurate as far as I know. It seems no different from the claim the bill of rights is based on the 10 commandments, although having 10 bullet points is the only thing they have in common.
 
Moz

Moz

Religion. A pox on all their Houses.
Shadow Wolf said:
We are all created equally not in genetics or ability but before the law. That was, at the time, a rather revolutionary idea. A break from lords, kings, and nobility altogether.
As the founding fathers saw it, all men are created is a principle found of the laws of nature, and things like consent of the governed.

Actually the American ideals for that are based on the magna carta. The legal system promoted and practiced by Moses did not resemble what we have today.
Click to expand...
Hi
The idea of equality before the law was Roman jurors prudence. All Roman citizens were accorded the right to be judged by roman law no matter their station. That's why the Apostle Paul was tried by the Roman authorities under their laws, he was a citizen. A break from Kings... duh.. the Roman republic.The americans invented nothing. The western concept of "human equality" is the result of the concept of being made in the image of God being taken to its logical conclusion. It has nothing to do with the so called laws of nature. The laws of nature actually impose inequality as their base motivation. The animal world is anything but equal.
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Are you sure that things could not tumble back to a darker time, if they did, how confident are you that Human Reason would come to the rescue?
Is the western advance in morality that you believe in strong enough or deep enough for people to go through hard times without reverting to a more pragmatic brutal morality?
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The maga carta, which is massively misunderstood and misused (it was about Noble rights) did not spring up from nowhere. A mans "home is His castle" is founded in the christian principles that we are each sovereign individuals with God given rights that trump mans law.
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Moses presented a law code to the people, read it all to them and then asked for their assent. From then on they had a written law that applied to ALL Israelites no matter their station. Equal before the Law. They could call witnesses. They were judged by their peers. It is not a contentious or outrageous statement that our law code has its origins in Judeo/christian thought.
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Peace.
 
Shadow Wolf

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Moz said:
The americans invented nothing. The western concept of "human equality" is the result of the concept of being made in the image of God being taken to its logical conclusion.
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Is that why slavery is permitted and women are beneath men?
 
lewisnotmiller

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Amanaki said:
I do not want to start an argument with you, but my question is, How can we see morality getting better in a world that constantly attack each other, Both in wars but also in politics or even daily life? Morality the way I understand it is to do our best to not harm others or own interests. But today we often see, that people get more and more greedy, hateful, dishonest, and full of egoistic way of living. In my understanding that is not good morality at all.
But you see it different then me i know :)
Click to expand...

You think it was better in the past? In which time period?
 
Shadow Wolf

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Moz said:
The animal world is anything but equal.
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We are animals and a part of the animal world. Yet we created the concepts of rights, liberties, and law.
Moz said:
The western concept of "human equality" is the result of the concept of being made in the image of God being taken to its logical conclusion.
Click to expand...
Where is human equality promoted in the Bible? Paul says women aren't to speak in church. God commands the slaughter of entire tribes,including the children.
Moz said:
Is the western advance in morality that you believe in strong enough or deep enough for people to go through hard times without reverting to a more pragmatic brutal morality?
Click to expand...
I have confidence most of the world wouldn't resort to that. We've been through some hard times, and we haven't really seen it go to extreme measures.
Moz said:
God given rights that trump mans law.
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Where doed the Bible grant rights? It did demand death for worshiping other gods. The US prohibits that and allows you to worship what/who ever. Or laws defintely trump "thou shalt have no other gods before me."
Moz said:
Equal before the Law.
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Where did the Bible state this? Rather, if tells slaves to submit to their master. Slaves and masters are not equal.
Moz said:
hey were judged by their peers.
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Clearly no, as no where in the Bible are peers called to firm a jury, and instead they are taken before an elite group, as was the case for most of our history.
 
P

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Shadow Wolf said:
Those really aren't issues of morality, but if things you personally object to. Gay marriage? It's great were accepting that and moral that we aren't making a deal of fuss out of it anymore. Sex outside of marriage? Who cares?
Click to expand...

What about a Weekend Only Marriage to two 12 year old pubescent girls?
What about the wholesale legalization of all narcotics?(actually I am okay with that - war on drugs failed.)
What about the euthanizing of all elderly people and children born handicapped?

When these things arrive as hot-button issues (polygamy might be next) they will arrive with a great
"moral" force. People who once opposed, say polygamy, will think "Why do people interfere in the
marriage arrangements of others?" And maybe school children will go on strike to support polygamy
(given a new name by then) and shut down the voice of "Polygamy-phobics."

Could happen. I recall gays, seeking decriminalization of homosexuality, publicly stating this wouldn't
lead to gay marriage and teaching homosexuality in class rooms. I am old enough to remember when
divorce was liberalized and people said talk of divorce affecting half the population was a scare tactic.
These people were either
1 - lying
2 - have no idea where their social experimentation is taking them.
 
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Shadow Wolf

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
PruePhillip said:
What about a Weekend Only Marriage to two 12 year old pubescent girls?
What about the wholesale legalization of all narcotics?(actually I am okay with that - war on drugs failed.)
What about the euthanizing of all elderly people and children born handicapped?
Click to expand...
Where in the hell is any of that going on?
PruePhillip said:
Could happen.
Click to expand...
It should. Polygamist are harming no one. It's one of those "none of your business" sort of things, because it's really none of your business.
 
P

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Shadow Wolf said:
Where in the hell is any of that going on?

It should. Polygamist are harming no one. It's one of those "none of your business" sort of things, because it's really none of your business.
Click to expand...

My point is this - a Time magazine article once stated that American conservatives
feel about gay marriage the same way liberals feel about polygamy.
But the ground has shifted with liberals and polygamy. It's probably the fast growing
of all the issues shown below - silently.

We don't see where we are heading.
We deny a social phenomenon will ever happen (ie mainstream porn)
When it happens we are fully behind it - without thinking through what has happened
to our former values.

I like to ask pro-gay marriage folk, "What was your position on gay marriage in the
1980?"

And to your question "where in the hell is any of that going on?" It's what coming down the
turnpike. Religious values are being replaced with political fashions. Guarantee it.
 
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lewisnotmiller

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
PruePhillip said:
What about a Weekend Only Marriage to two 12 year old pubescent girls?
What about the wholesale legalization of all narcotics?(actually I am okay with that - war on drugs failed.)
What about the euthanizing of all elderly people and children born handicapped?
Click to expand...

Do you think these things haven't been issues or occurred in the past?

PruePhillip said:
When these things arrive as hot-button issues (polygamy might be next) they will arrive with a great
"moral" force. People who once opposed, say polygamy, will think "Why do people interfere in the
marriage arrangements of others?" And maybe school children will go on strike to support polygamy
(given a new name by then) and shut down the voice of "Polygamy-phobics."
Click to expand...

Polygamy exists already, and isn't in any way new, so how does this demonstrate a 'moral slide' over time?

PruePhillip said:
Could happen. I recall gays, seeking decriminalization of homosexuality, publicly stating this wouldn't
lead to gay marriage and teaching homosexuality in class rooms. I am old enough to remember when
divorce was liberalized and people said talk of divorce affecting half the population was a scare tactic.
These people were either
1 - lying
2 - have no idea where their social experimentation is taking them.
Click to expand...

People seem to commonly confuse their personal history with the history of humankind, then draw conclusions about the direction of humanity.
But the human experience is far broader than your experience. Perhaps it is more accurate to suggest there are things impinging on your sphere now which haven't in the past?
 
P

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
lewisnotmiller said:
Do you think these things haven't been issues or occurred in the past?
Polygamy exists already, and isn't in any way new, so how does this demonstrate a 'moral slide' over time?
People seem to commonly confuse their personal history with the history of humankind, then draw conclusions about the direction of humanity.
But the human experience is far broader than your experience. Perhaps it is more accurate to suggest there are things impinging on your sphere now which haven't in the past?
Click to expand...

You are correct.
These things did happen in the past, even in our own culture.
But...we claim to hold to higher values now.

Western society holds to at least three core values that I can think of
1 - liberal democracy
2 - Judaeo Christianity
3 - the scientific method

It's common now to hear talk of the decline of liberalism, to challenge
the hard sciences and to feel ashamed of our religious heritage.
I put it to you that we are, right now, in the process of losing all three
of these. Westerners used to teach these values to poor nations, and
these nations saw Western wealth, power and stability as something
desirable - increasingly many "third world" nations warn about the
values of the West.


Quote - "You can't afford to believe in your side"
Does this apply to you, also?
 
Thief

Thief

Rogue Theologian
too many people ...boo-hoo

MY rights....MY rights

and then for emotional …...there there.....
society will change
we will pass new laws

and if you want to be called......she,it

everyone will do so
 
Moz

Moz

Religion. A pox on all their Houses.
Shadow Wolf said:
Is that why slavery is permitted and women are beneath men?
Click to expand...
Hi
If you really believe that the bible is a human construct then these are all human decisions camouflaged by religion aren't they?.
And now you want to introduce a new human construct camouflaged as law. I would not trust these humans if i were you, their track record is horrible and at least the Bible version has a happy ending that explains why things went off the tracks for a while.
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Actually i wonder why they made up all that end of the world stuff anyway... it seems strange that the powers who made up this masterpiece of social engineering and patriarchal control would have endorsed a story where they end up as the bad guys who get destroyed at the end. You would have thought that they would have shown how THEY were the heroes of the story who would lead man back to the golden age... but no they decided on....... We end up so out of control that God steps in and kills us and takes over the Kingdom. Strange choice of plot direction. And they make the hero of the story a poor carpenter who gets executed...... weird choice. Not very homeric.
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Do you honestly think that slavery ended because of a moral issue?
The impetus was much more economic than that... very few wanted the American slaves freed because of morals, it was actually racism in many cases, the new states opposed slavery spreading because slaves would "take all the jobs" if they were allowed. If the south had not risen and forced an armed conflict it is very doubtful that the country would have outlawed slavery in the 1860's. The most common rational view was that industralization would eventually make slavery obsolete. It was the New states that forced the issue into exploding when it did.
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It seems a pretty established fact that the offshoring of manufacturing to the Asian world in particular has created a pseudo slave economy that the west is happy to exploit for cheap luxuries that they do not really need.... where is the real morality in that... isn't it some surface feel good morality that the west expouses and it does not actually ever put itself in harms way to improve things
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Doesn't morality require more than some surface declaration that you identify with anyone who claims to be exploited.... that is easy, the words. But where is the moral stand based on on anything deeper than "i feel" .

You feel slavery is wrong. You feel like slavery has been defeated. You live in a civilization that still depends on it ....... we just off shored the stench.
Saudi Arabia can do what it wants with both Slavery and Women TODAY and there are no protests on the streets of the west. Threaten petrol prices and the west's morals don't seem to exist.
.......................................................................................
Peace
 
Thief

Thief

Rogue Theologian
actually...the standard was carved in stone long before the Carpenter
shoved it in the faces of the Pharisees

Do unto others as you would have it done unto you

I can think of no better line drawn
 
Shadow Wolf

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Moz said:
Bible version has a happy ending that
Click to expand...
The Bible doesn't have a happy ending for all. Myself, it has a violent end in store for me as it demands my execution. On the other hand, no human law calls for my death.
Moz said:
Do you honestly think that slavery ended because of a moral issue?
Click to expand...
How many people do not find slavery morally reprehensible?
 
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