What do these Bible verses mean?

Trailblazer said:

I never said that all religions are true. Only religions that have a true Messenger of God that revealed them are true, so obviously we would first have to determine which religions those are. For starters we know that all these Messengers were legit: Abraham, Krishna, Moses, Zoroaster, Buddha, Christ, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah.

I do not know what you think that verse refers to true religions vs. false religions. I looked up a bunch of Bible commentaries online but I could not make heads or tails out of what they said. Do you really think this verse has one meaning and everyone understand it the same way?

Never did I say that everyone got everything wrong. I only ever said that they got *some things* wrong. But some of those things they got wrong are pretty important things, especially the things that Christians got wrong, less so the Muslims, who have not gone as far astray from the Qur’an as the Christians have gone astray from the Bible.

I posted this chapter to you in another post but it bears repeating: The False Prophets

The primary thing that the adherents to all the religions got wrong is that they believe they were *special* and *chosen* and they believe that their religion is the best and the last and the final religion.

Sure, it is a tough pill to swallow that a newer religion has now been established by God that supersedes the older religions, but if it is the Truth one would hope that people would want to know. Unfortunately, most people do not want to know, they just want what they want. I think this is the crux of the problem and why the Baha’i Faith is rejected. I can not only make a logical case for it, but I can provide evidence that shows it is the Truth, but does it even matter to anyone?

The only reason I started this thread is because I have been posting to a Christian on another forum group for five years and he insists Jesus is coming back and that Baha’u’llah is a false prophet, so I thought I would see what others think of the verses I posted in the OP. I see that no Christian has addressed any of the verses where Jesus said His work was finished here and He was no longer in the world. That is because they want to believe Jesus is coming back, but wanting will not make Jesus come back. All the prophecies for the return have been fulfilled and where is the same Jesus?

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Hi
All i can say is that if you can not make heads or tails of the very first foundational prophecy in the Bible then that is a bad start. The two seeds, satans seed and the seed of the woman are the basis of everything that comes after. All scripture if referred back to this declaration at Eden. All the covenants are to advance the "seed of the woman" to the right spot in place and time for Christ to accomplish the Crushing of the "seed of the serpent".
Peace

Trailblazer said:

Believe a story if you want to, just because it is written in a book. Acts is just part of the story.

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Hmmm? Believe a story if I want to. You say that as if this story is not true. The problem is that is part of the supposedly inspired word of God. It is the story of the supposed Son of God. It is the story of the supposed Messiah. If it ain't true I'm good with that. God was just jerking us all off. Great, nice guy.

But Baha'is say that this Jesus was the Messiah... that the NT is the inspired Word of God. There are many things I question about the Baha'i Faith, now I can add that they endorse a book of fantasy. I didn't want to believe it anyway. My Christian friends tell me that it is the truth from God. But if it's just a story, that's awesome. 'Cause I don't like the vindictive God of the Bible. I don't like a God that only accepts those people that believe in his son and is going cast all the rest of the people into hell. Who needs a God like that? Except... that's the same God Baha'is believe in. So you tell me, where in the Baha'i writings does it say the Bible is just "stories"?

CG Didymus said:

Do you believe Jesus came physically back life? No. Do I believe it? I doubt it. But I don't doubt that is exactly what the NT says and what early Christians believed. Most Baha'is use the Abdul Baha' symbolic interpretation. I'm glad you don't, but if you are a Baha'i why don't you? Baha'is say they believe in the Bible and the NT. You say they are just stories. And I agree. I think there is a very good chance they are just stories. Why can't the rest of the Baha'is say that? I think it is because that is not the position that the Baha'i Faith takes. They need all religions to be true. So they pull this symbolic thing out and try and convince people that the stories are true... but only symbolically.

How did you explain what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15?

1...I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand.
2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve.
6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.
7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles,

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The position I take is that nobody comes back to life after being dead for three days.... That means it had to be a story. I do not need to go along with what Abdu'l-Baha said, that was just one way of interpreting the story.

The other position I take is that it does not matter one iota if Jesus rose from the grave or not because that does not mean Jesus is still alive somewhere in a body. I am a Baha'i so I believe that Baha'u'llah was infallible so that means anything that contradicts that has to be false. Baha'u'llah explained what the meaning of resurrection is which means tells us what it does not mean. That was explained in easy to understand language in this book:

“Resurrection is the birth of the individual to spiritual life, through the gift of the Holy Spirit bestowed through the Manifestation of God. The grave from which he arises is the grave of ignorance and negligence of God. The sleep from which he awakens is the dormant spiritual condition in which many await the dawn of the Day of God. This dawn illumines all who have lived on the face of the earth, whether they are in the body or out of the body, but those who are spiritually blind cannot perceive it. The Day of Resurrection is not a day of twenty-four hours, but an era which has now begun and will last as long as the present world cycle continues. It will continue when all traces of the present civilization will have been wiped off the surface of the globe.”
Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 222

CG Didymus said:

You said, "...liberal Christians now believe that these stories are not to be interpreted literally as real events. Their faith has not been damaged by losing faith in the reality of these events." You can't compare fundamental, literal-believing Christians being the same as liberal Christians. They don't have faith in the same thing. Liberal versions of any religion might even have more in common with each other, and the Baha'i Faith, than the conservative sides of their own religions. But, I don't know if you agree, but I think the Baha'i Faith has a liberal and conservative side. I liked my liberal Baha'i friends. But I had a huge problem with authoritative and administrative oriented Baha'is. To me, they were like Fundamental Christians... only the Baha'i version of them.

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I did not say that, it was quoted off the Religious Tolerance website.

I do not like to separate Baha'is into liberals and conservatives because we all believe in the same teachings, principles and theology, unlike Christians who differ markedly. I am not an administrative oriented Baha'i because I do not participate in the Baha'i community but I am a stickler for Baha'i Laws as you know.. I think that the Law is our greatest protection.

CG Didymus said:

Now I was wondering, have you read the NT yet? 'Cause you sure quote from it a lot.

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No, I have not read it all, just certain parts of it.

CG Didymus said:

Hmmm? Believe a story if I want to. You say that as if this story is not true. The problem is that is part of the supposedly inspired word of God. It is the story of the supposed Son of God. It is the story of the supposed Messiah. If it ain't true I'm good with that. God was just jerking us all off. Great, nice guy.

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You cannot blame God for what men wrote.

I think the reason I do not struggle with the Bible the way you do is because I am a firm believer in Baha'u'llah so it is easy to put the Bible in perspective. I do not have to take the resurrection and ascension stories seriously to be a Baha'i; I only have to believe what I am required to believe:

“As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended. The Founder of the Christian Faith is designated by Bahá’u’lláh as the “Spirit of God,” is proclaimed as the One Who “appeared out of the breath of the Holy Ghost,” and is even extolled as the “Essence of the Spirit.” His mother is described as “that veiled and immortal, that most beauteous, countenance,” and the station of her Son eulogized as a “station which hath been exalted above the imaginings of all that dwell on earth,” whilst Peter is recognized as one whom God has caused “the mysteries of wisdom and of utterance to flow out of his mouth.” “Know thou,” Bahá’u’lláh has moreover testified, “that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive and resplendent Spirit. We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened and the soul of the sinner sanctified…. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him.”

Indeed, the essential prerequisites of admittance into the Bahá’í fold of Jews, Zoroastrians, Hindus, Buddhists, and the followers of other ancient faiths, as well as of agnostics and even atheists, is the wholehearted and unqualified acceptance by them all of the divine origin of both Islám and Christianity, of the Prophetic functions of both Muḥammad and Jesus Christ, of the legitimacy of the institution of the Imamate, and of the primacy of St. Peter, the Prince of the Apostles. Such are the central, the solid, the incontrovertible principles that constitute the bedrock of Bahá’í belief, which the Faith of Bahá’u’lláh is proud to acknowledge, which its teachers proclaim, which its apologists defend, which its literature disseminates, which its summer schools expound, and which the rank and file of its followers attest by both word and deed.”
The Promised Day is Come, pp. 109-110

CG Didymus said:

But Baha'is say that this Jesus was the Messiah... that the NT is the inspired Word of God. There are many things I question about the Baha'i Faith, now I can add that they endorse a book of fantasy. I didn't want to believe it anyway. My Christian friends tell me that it is the truth from God. But if it's just a story, that's awesome. 'Cause I don't like the vindictive God of the Bible. I don't like a God that only accepts those people that believe in his son and is going cast all the rest of the people into hell. Who needs a God like that? Except... that's the same God Baha'is believe in. So you tell me, where in the Baha'i writings does it say the Bible is just "stories"?

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Baha'is do not endorse the resurrection stories or the other stories in the Old Testament as being literally true. We do not believe that God sends anyone to hell but rather that we make our own choices and end up where we do by our own faith and actions.

It is clear what is stories if you know the truth as it is explained in the Baha'i Writings.

Moz said:

Hi
All i can say is that if you can not make heads or tails of the very first foundational prophecy in the Bible then that is a bad start. The two seeds, satans seed and the seed of the woman are the basis of everything that comes after. All scripture if referred back to this declaration at Eden. All the covenants are to advance the "seed of the woman" to the right spot in place and time for Christ to accomplish the Crushing of the "seed of the serpent".
Peace

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Baha'is do not believe there is a being called Satan.
Bahais do not believe in serpents.
Baha'is do not believe that the Garden of Eden was a real Garden or that Adam and Eve were real people.
We believe that Adam was the first prophet in the Adamic Cycle of religion.
30: ADAM AND EVE

Trailblazer said:

Baha'is do not believe there is a being called Satan.
Bahais do not believe in serpents.
Baha'is do not believe that the Garden of Eden was a real Garden or that Adam and Eve were real people.
We believe that Adam was the first prophet in the Adamic Cycle of religion.
30: ADAM AND EVE

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Hi
Well that is hardly surprising. You don't believe most of what the Bible teaches. Other than the word God very little that you have said fits in any way to the faith revealed through the Bible.

You guys have a definite mormon feel to the way you play with the bible and some of your concepts as well.
I have watched the attempts over the last few weeks to establish some sort of commonality with the christians and muslims on these threads and seen how both faiths mostly reject your claim of compatability. You should try your hand on a LDS thread... that would be interesting to watch.
.......................................................
I can't help but wonder why it is only the religions with huge numbers of nominal members that you claim solidarity with. Surely the religions that have died out also carried messages that mankind needed.
Why are none of the Greek or Norse religions included?
They had oracles and sages every bit as authentic as the eastern sages who dreamed up Hinduism.
Were the Celts not given any worthwhile revelation through the druids?
Why is the Egyptian "book of the dead" not part of these revelations?
Why are the Aztec or Olmec religions not part of this progressive revelation?
Could it be that by the 1800's these religions had no followers left that could be co-opted by the line "we are a continuation of the wisdom of Odin or Osirus"?
It seems that if the faith does not have people to be plucked from it then it does not make the Bahai cut... that is not a good sign. Are there any major religions that the Bahai do not claim to be the final version of?
.............................................................
The questions are rhetorical please don't waste your time answering them.... your prophet could only incorporate or co-opt the belief systems that he was aware of at the time. It is a shame that he did not know of "Teotl" otherwise you could have grabbed the Mesoamerican religions as well. They are actually maliable enough to be twisted into the Bahai bag. Or the polynesian religions... Tapu would have been easy to incorporate... missed marketing opportunities in guess. Maybe the next prophet will tidy it all up.

Peace

Moz said:

Hi
Well that is hardly surprising. You don't believe most of what the Bible teaches. Other than the word God very little that you have said fits in any way to the faith revealed through the Bible.

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The Bible does not teach anything. the Bible is just words on a page until someone picks it up and reads it.
It is the Church that has taught people how to interpret the Bible, but they are dead wrong.
What is revealed through the Bible is different depending on who is reading it and interpreting it.
No two people interpret what they read the same way.

Moz said:

Are there any major religions that the Bahai do not claim to be the final version of?

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Baha'i does not claim to be the final version of any other religions, and that shows how well you have been listening.
Baha'i does not claim to be the final religion. We are only the most recent religion, but many more religions will be established in the future.

Moz said:

Maybe the next prophet will tidy it all up.

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Baha'u'llah already did that. Too bad people are so attached to their own religions that they cannot see what is right in front of them. It is a clear example of what confirmation bias can do.

Trailblazer said:

The Bible does not teach anything. the Bible is just words on a page until someone picks it up and reads it.
It is the Church that has taught people how to interpret the Bible, but they are dead wrong.
What is revealed through the Bible is different depending on who is reading it and interpreting it.
No two people interpret what they read the same way.

Baha'i does not claim to be the final version of any other religions, and that shows how well you have been listening.
Baha'i does not claim to be the final religion. We are only the most recent religion, but many more religions will be established in the future.

Baha'u'llah already did that. Too bad people are so attached to their own religions that they cannot see what is right in front of them. It is a clear example of what confirmation bias can do.

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Hi
The Church that has taught people how to interpret the Bible, but they are dead wrong.

I am a Baha'i so I believe that Baha'u'llah was infallible so that means anything that contradicts that has to be
false.

It is a clear example of what confirmation bias can do
Bye

So t

Trailblazer said:

Firstly, I do not believe that the physical body of Jesus rose from the grave. I believe that when Jesus died, His soul ascended to heaven, to the Right Hand of God. In heaven, Jesus got a spiritual body comprised of spiritual elements that are found in the spiritual realm (heaven) and that is what Jesus has now.

Jesus said that His work was finished here on earth and He was no more in the world, so there is no reason why Jesus would return, even if He could return, which would be impossible because physical bodies cannot live in the spiritual realm, only spiritual bodies exist there. It could have been the spiritual body of Jesus that returned and appeared to the disciples, I don't know. There is no reason to think that Jesus could not make His spiritual body appear physical to the disciples since it is an exact replica, only without any physical properties.

Both Jesus and Baha'u'llah got all their power and Authority from God, not from any miracles they performed.

Baha'u'llah performed miracles similar to Jesus but that is not what made either one of them special. What made them special is that God chose them for a mission and they completed that mission for God. What made them special is that they were made of the very substance of God Himself, rather than just being ordinary human beings.

“But in the day of the Manifestation the people with insight see that all the conditions of the Manifestation are miracles, for They are superior to all others, and this alone is an absolute miracle. Recollect that Christ, solitary and alone, without a helper or protector, without armies and legions, and under the greatest oppression, uplifted the standard of God before all the people of the world, and withstood them, and finally conquered all, although outwardly He was crucified. Now this is a veritable miracle which can never be denied. There is no need of any other proof of the truth of Christ……..

The meaning is not that the Manifestations are unable to perform miracles, for They have all power. But for Them inner sight, spiritual healing and eternal life are the valuable and important things. Consequently, whenever it is recorded in the Holy Books that such a one was blind and recovered his sight, the meaning is that he was inwardly blind, and that he obtained spiritual vision, or that he was ignorant and became wise, or that he was negligent and became heedful, or that he was worldly and became heavenly.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 101-102

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So then, the Apostles are liars in that they wrote that his body was not in the tomb, and that He was resurrected in glorified body of flesh and bone, as He said.

So bottom line, the words and doctrines of your prophet void the words of Christ and his Apostles.

Your prophet, and you gives them wax noses so they can be bent one way if it is convenient to quote them to support your beliefs. Yet you bend their noses in the opposite direction and call them liars, including Christ, when ballulalula says you must.

Disgusting and typical cultish behavior

Moz said:

Hi
The Church that has taught people how to interpret the Bible, but they are dead wrong.

I am a Baha'i so I believe that Baha'u'llah was infallible so that means anything that contradicts that has to be
false.

It is a clear example of what confirmation bias can do
Bye

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So, Bahaulalula calls the Bible, the Apostles, and the Christ liars.

Your excuse is totally lame, you study the Bible and interpret for yourself. Luther called it the priesthood of all believers. What might be subject to interpretation detracts or adds little to the Gospel, which is the foundation of Christianity.

Just as that clown called Applewhite first had his followers castrate themselves, or in the case of the women destroy their ability to reproduce, then told them to kill themselves, you are in a cult if you think some delusional ex Muslim gives you the authority to simply void what parts of the Bible he doesn´t like.

How utterly pitiful

Trailblazer said:

The Bible does not teach anything. the Bible is just words on a page until someone picks it up and reads it.
It is the Church that has taught people how to interpret the Bible, but they are dead wrong.
What is revealed through the Bible is different depending on who is reading it and interpreting it.
No two people interpret what they read the same way.

Baha'i does not claim to be the final version of any other religions, and that shows how well you have been listening.
Baha'i does not claim to be the final religion. We are only the most recent religion, but many more religions will be established in the future.

Baha'u'llah already did that. Too bad people are so attached to their own religions that they cannot see what is right in front of them. It is a clear example of what confirmation bias can do.

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Yes, why are people so attached to their religions? Yes, why did Christians write a book and then decide how it should be interpreted and believed.

So you say "No two people interpret" things the same. Well then, again I ask have you read the resurrection stories in the four gospels? If not, would you. And then tell me if the writers meant to have their stories interpreted several different ways?

I don't think so. I think that they were telling a continuing story of Jesus... The disciples thought he was dead. They went to the tomb and he was gone. So what happened to him? The stories say he came back to life and appeared to them, ate with them, let them touch him to show that he was real. BS? Sure it could. A story like that 2000 years ago. How would ordinary people know the difference. But that was the Christian story. The story you say is fiction... but only when it says that Jesus came back to life and when it says Jesus is the one coming back.

The verses that say that he has left the world and won't be coming back, how do you view that part of the story? All of a sudden those verses are the truth? All you have proven is that some verses in the NT contradict others. Well let me give you an interpretation of what I think the Baha'i Faith does with Christianity and all other major religions, you make them just stories. Some Baha's say the stories are symbolic. You say they are fiction. Some say they've been corrupted. Some say they have been misinterpreted. But the bottom line for Baha'is is that the traditional and practiced beliefs of all the previous religions is wrong. Then, I wonder, why in the hell don't Baha'i just say so?

But no, Baha'is play the game of saying they believe in all the major religions. That all of them came from the one and same source... an all-knowing and all-loving God. He sent a messenger who told the exact truth but the people screwed it up, every single time. But now, with Baha'u'llah, that true message from God will never get messed up again. Baha'u'llah wrote his own stuff. He appointed his successors to avoid schisms. Well ain't that just great. Why couldn't God have figured that out before? He sends Jesus and expects several different writers of the story to get it straight? And, if what you say is true, that the NT is filled with fictional stories, God let his message get told wrong from the start. It didn't have to wait for those stories to get misinterpreted. They were told wrong for the beginning.

How much easier for the Jews to accept Jesus as their Messiah, something that Baha'is say is true, if they didn't have, and sometimes by threat of death, to believe Jesus rose from the dead. How easy it would have been if the story said that Jesus was killed but fear not he lives on... in spirit,,, and you will too. That don't worry, there is no devil trying to get you and there is no fiery pit you're going to be thrown into for not believing. So it's not God's fault? Then who is in control here? This is exactly how God wanted it. Therefore, God is the author of confusion, contradiction and fantasy stories.

shmogie said:

So then, the Apostles are liars in that they wrote that his body was not in the tomb, and that He was resurrected in glorified body of flesh and bone, as He said.

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I never said they were liars. I just stumbled upon an article while trying to answer another post on another thread that explains what I think really happened. I believe it because it make logical sense, not because of my religion.

shmogie said:

So bottom line, the words and doctrines of your prophet void the words of Christ and his Apostles.

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The bottom line is that we do not have anything Jesus wrote since Jesus did not write anything. All we have are what was written decades later, the Gospels *according to* the Apostles, but modern scholarship has proven that these four were not the actual authors of the Gospels. So at best all we have is what the Apostles remembered of what Jesus said, and what other authors wrote about that.

As for the resurrection account, that was just a story so there is no reason to believe it is historically accurate, and the dead giveaway is that the four Gospels are contradictory in many of the details. Christians believe what they believe on faith, not on fact. That is fine, but please do not try to pretend it is factual because any atheist who knows the Bible will blow you right out of the water. I won't try to do that because I do not know the Bible well enough and I have no need to put any other religion down in order to raise my religion up.

It matters to most (but not all) Christians that Jesus rose bodily from the grave because it givens them a sense of superiority over all the other religions, but even if Jesus did rise from the grave that would not make Christianity superior, since it is the teachings of Jesus that matter, not the miracles. What makes Christianity stand out are the wonderful parables of Jesus, what He actually taught, not the miracles that are attributed to Him. What is sad is that the actual teachings of Jesus have been superseded by the Christian doctrines like original sin, the resurrection, the ascension and the return of Jesus, none of which can be traced back to anything Jesus ever taught.

In spite of all that, I find inspiration in Christianity, because I am able to focus on what Jesus said about God that shone through, rather than the doctrines of Christianity. The mission of Jesus was to make God known and bear witness to the truth about God so that people could have eternal life. It was the teachings of Jesus that bestowed eternal life, not the cross sacrifice or the resurrection.

shmogie said:

Your prophet, and you gives them wax noses so they can be bent one way if it is convenient to quote them to support your beliefs. Yet you bend their noses in the opposite direction and call them liars, including Christ, when ballulalula says you must.

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Please do not bring Baha'u'llah into this. I would not even believe the Bible was the Word of God were it not for what the Baha'i Faith teaches about the Bible. Baha'u'llah wrote that the Bible is "God's greatest testimony to His creatures." That does not mean it is historically accurate, but rather that it was divinely inspired and it represents mankind's spiritual history throughout the ages.

shmogie said:

Disgusting and typical cultish behavior

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The Baha'i Faith is not a cult, it is a divinely revealed religion that is established all over the world.

Trailblazer said:

I never said that all religions are true. Only religions that have a true Messenger of God that revealed them are true, so obviously we would first have to determine which religions those are. For starters we know that all these Messengers were legit: Abraham, Krishna, Moses, Zoroaster, Buddha, Christ, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah.

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We "know" these ones are "legit"? Tell me what the Baha'i definition of a manifestation is? As I recall it is something about being a "perfectly" polished mirror. I've asked this to a lot of Baha'is, so I can wait to hear what you have to say. Abraham and Moses were not perfect. They are shown as being fallible. Jews see them as only ordinary men. Also, what religion did Abraham and Moses found? Judaism for both of them? What book of Scriptures did they bring? And we can add Jesus to that. He didn't write a thing and you say the book that was written about him is fiction. And, about founding a religion, what religion did Krishna found? How about the stories about Krishna? Are they historical fact or more fiction?

Moz said:

I can't help but wonder why it is only the religions with huge numbers of nominal members that you claim solidarity with. Surely the religions that have died out also carried messages that mankind needed.
Why are none of the Greek or Norse religions included?
They had oracles and sages every bit as authentic as the eastern sages who dreamed up Hinduism.
Were the Celts not given any worthwhile revelation through the druids?
Why is the Egyptian "book of the dead" not part of these revelations?
Why are the Aztec or Olmec religions not part of this progressive revelation?
Could it be that by the 1800's these religions had no followers left that could be co-opted by the line "we are a continuation of the wisdom of Odin or Osirus"?
It seems that if the faith does not have people to be plucked from it then it does not make the Bahai cut... that is not a good sign. Are there any major religions that the Bahai do not claim to be the final version of?

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I've heard Baha'is say that no people were left with no guidance. Trailblazer, do you believe that? Then what about all these religions? Any of them kind of true? True originally but then messed up by their followers? Some of these are the religions of great empires. Where did those beliefs come from? God? Or, did the people make them up? Did the people make up myths and traditions about their gods and their beliefs? Did they make up the laws that supposedly these gods had given them?

If dying and rising god/men in these religions are "just" stories, as in myth, then is that what we should be calling the resurrection of Jesus... pure myth? If so, then why call Christianity a true religion? If part of it is based on a fictional myth?

CG Didymus said:

So you say "No two people interpret" things the same. Well then, again I ask have you read the resurrection stories in the four gospels? If not, would you. And then tell me if the writers meant to have their stories interpreted several different ways?

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I do not know what the writers intended, but since the stories were written in different ways, they will be interpreted in different ways.... Look what I found this morning, it helped me understand a lot of what we have been discussing: I think you should read the whole article, but this last paragraph is very pertinent. It would also apply to the resurrection accounts in the various Gospels.

CG Didymus said:

I don't think so. I think that they were telling a continuing story of Jesus... The disciples thought he was dead. They went to the tomb and he was gone. So what happened to him? The stories say he came back to life and appeared to them, ate with them, let them touch him to show that he was real. BS? Sure it could. A story like that 2000 years ago. How would ordinary people know the difference.

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They could never know the difference. What it boils down to is faith and desire. Christians want to believe it so they have faith that it is the truth. They have no factual basis for their beliefs, just stories that they have faith in.

They are welcome to it but please don't try to get me to believe it, because I could never believe it, even if I was not a Baha'i. If I was not a Baha'i I would most likely not even believe in God and I would not care if God exists, because there would be no reason for me to care, other than what Baha'u'llah wrote. God would just be a pie in the sky concept. But as it is, I am stuck believing in God because I have evidence that God exists and I know that the purpose of my existence is to know and worship God. I have only partly accomplished the first part of my purpose, the last part is problematic because I have issues with God.

Oddly enough, I look to Christianity to connect to God on an emotional level, not to the Baha'i Faith. However, when it comes to knowing God I look only to what Baha'u'llah wrote, because that is the most accurate Source of information about God that has ever been revealed to humanity... I do not need the Bible to know God. I never read one page of the Bible for the first 42 years I was a Baha'i. The only reason I ever read it is because I started posting on forums and so I needed to know something about Christianity.

CG Didymus said:

But that was the Christian story. The story you say is fiction... but only when it says that Jesus came back to life and when it says Jesus is the one coming back.

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It cannot be both fact and fiction because that is contradictory, so It is all fiction as far as I am concerned.

CG Didymus said:

The verses that say that he has left the world and won't be coming back, how do you view that part of the story? All of a sudden those verses are the truth?

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I know that is the truth because of what Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha wrote.

CG Didymus said:

All you have proven is that some verses in the NT contradict others.

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Maybe they do or maybe they don't. Maybe they are just misinterpreted so it appears that they contradict each other.

CG Didymus said:

Well let me give you an interpretation of what I think the Baha'i Faith does with Christianity and all other major religions, you make them just stories. Some Baha's say the stories are symbolic. You say they are fiction. Some say they've been corrupted. Some say they have been misinterpreted. But the bottom line for Baha'is is that the traditional and practiced beliefs of all the previous religions is wrong. Then, I wonder, why in the hell don't Baha'i just say so?

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I do not give a rip what other Baha'is say. I think many Baha'is are just trying to be diplomatic, but I am a straight shooter, and I go by what Baha'u'llah wrote, because I consider it to be what He said it was, identical with the Will of God..

“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth. Their falsity hath, in some cases, been exposed when the intervening veils were rent asunder. They themselves have acknowledged their failure in apprehending the meaning of any of the words of God.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 171-172

And what do I see when I look at these religious traditions? I see exactly what Baha'u'llah wrote about them, corruption and lack of truth.

CG Didymus said:

But no, Baha'is play the game of saying they believe in all the major religions. That all of them came from the one and same source... an all-knowing and all-loving God. He sent a messenger who told the exact truth but the people screwed it up, every single time.

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There is no game involved. that is exactly what happened.

CG Didymus said:

But now, with Baha'u'llah, that true message from God will never get messed up again. Baha'u'llah wrote his own stuff. He appointed his successors to avoid schisms. Well ain't that just great. Why couldn't God have figured that out before?

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Because that was not part of God's Purpose for humanity, for whatever reason. Apparently, God allowed it to get messed up knowing it would eventually be straightened out by Baha'u'llah..

CG Didymus said:

He sends Jesus and expects several different writers of the story to get it straight? And, if what you say is true, that the NT is filled with fictional stories, God let his message get told wrong from the start. It didn't have to wait for those stories to get misinterpreted. They were told wrong for the beginning.

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If you mean they were not factually correct, yes, that is true. But it got people to have faith in God and that was probably God's Purpose.

CG Didymus said:

How much easier for the Jews to accept Jesus as their Messiah, something that Baha'is say is true, if they didn't have, and sometimes by threat of death, to believe Jesus rose from the dead. How easy it would have been if the story said that Jesus was killed but fear not he lives on... in spirit,,, and you will too. That don't worry, there is no devil trying to get you and there is no fiery pit you're going to be thrown into for not believing. So it's not God's fault? Then who is in control here? This is exactly how God wanted it. Therefore, God is the author of confusion, contradiction and fantasy stories.

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No, God was not the author of confusion. Men authored the Bible thus causing the confusion. God did not stop them because free will is sacrosanct in God's Eyes. God allowed it to happen so we have to assume there was a reason it happened.

But it is over now. God sent Baha'u'llah and one reason was to straighten out everything that has gone wrong with past religions, to explain what happened to them. Nobody can blame God for most people rejecting Baha'u'llah. That is totally on them because we all have free will, and that is why God holds everyone accountable for rejecting Baha'u'llah..

Just think about what Baha'u'llah claimed and how few people even bother to investigate the claims of Baha'u'llah.... They don't because they want to cling to their older religions so they do. People want what they want so they do what they do and most of it is based upon emotions, not rational thought. It is really that simple.

Psychology is my other hat and I have an MA in Psychology. As I type on this laptop I am listening to the Christian radio station all day long... "I am alive because He lived" are the lyrics from the song playing right now.... Most people are not going to give that up and have to tow the line that the Baha'i Faith requires of them. Get real.

CG Didymus said:

We "know" these ones are "legit"? Tell me what the Baha'i definition of a manifestation is? As I recall it is something about being a "perfectly" polished mirror. I've asked this to a lot of Baha'is, so I can wait to hear what you have to say.

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Messengers of God, what Baha’is normally refer to as Manifestations of God, possess two stations: one is the physical station pertaining to the world of matter, and the others is the spiritual station, born of the substance of God. In other words, one station is that of a human being, and one, of the Divine Reality. It is because they possess both a human and a divine station that they can act as *mediators* between God and man.

Every Manifestation of God is a mirror of God, reflecting God’s Self, God’s Beauty, God’s Might and Glory. All other human beings are to be regarded as mirrors capable of reflecting the glory of these Manifestations Who are themselves the Primary Mirrors of the Divine Being,

The Manifestations of God are another order of creation above an ordinary man. They possess a universal divine mind that is different than ours and that is why God only speaks to them directly and through Them God communicates to humanity.

CG Didymus said:

Abraham and Moses were not perfect. They are shown as being fallible. Jews see them as only ordinary men. Also, what religion did Abraham and Moses found? Judaism for both of them? What book of Scriptures did they bring? And we can add Jesus to that. He didn't write a thing and you say the book that was written about him is fiction. And, about founding a religion, what religion did Krishna found? How about the stories about Krishna? Are they historical fact or more fiction?

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According to Baha'i beliefs, Abraham and Moses were not fallible in the eyes of God.
Not everything written about Jesus is fiction, just some of the stories such as the resurrection and ascension.
Krishna founded Hinduism. I do not know about the stories, that was much too long ago to know what happened.

CG Didymus said:

I've heard Baha'is say that no people were left with no guidance. Trailblazer, do you believe that? Then what about all these religions? Any of them kind of true? True originally but then messed up by their followers? Some of these are the religions of great empires. Where did those beliefs come from? God? Or, did the people make them up? Did the people make up myths and traditions about their gods and their beliefs? Did they make up the laws that supposedly these gods had given them?

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People had the guidance from their religions up until the next Manifestation of God came and established a new religion. Sure, they got messed up before the next Manifestation of God appeared, but that's the breaks. God does not leave them alone for very long. I mean the Muslims were pretty much on track about God when Baha'u'llah showed up. It was just their laws that needed to be revamped, and humanity needed the message of Baha'u'llah, which was the unity of mankind

Addressing the Muslims, Baha’u’llah wrote about the Bible, saying that the Bible needed to remain in place until the Qur'an was revealed:

“We have also heard a number of the foolish of the earth assert that the genuine text of the heavenly Gospel doth not exist amongst the Christians, that it hath ascended unto heaven. How grievously they have erred! How oblivious of the fact that such a statement imputeth the gravest injustice and tyranny to a gracious and loving Providence! How could God, when once the Day-star of the beauty of Jesus had disappeared from the sight of His people, and ascended unto the fourth heaven, cause His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures, to disappear also?” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 89

CG Didymus said:

If dying and rising god/men in these religions are "just" stories, as in myth, then is that what we should be calling the resurrection of Jesus... pure myth? If so, then why call Christianity a true religion? If part of it is based on a fictional myth?

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As far as I am concerned it is a fictional story, not a true story. I consider it a travesty that the religion of Christianity came to be centered around the bodily resurrection of Jesus from a grave, because that is not what Jesus taught, and Jesus could not care less about these stories that were written about Him. How utterly tragic that the actual teachings of Jesus got buried under all the false doctrines of the Church.

Maybe you have read this chapter, maybe not. The False Prophets

It is from the book Christ and Baha'u'llah by George Townshend who was a Hand of the Cause of God.
On the back cover of the book it reads:

For centuries the return of Christ has been a central theme of Christian hope, and is associated with the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth. Could it be that the confusion and stress, the oppression and darkness of our day—a day which has witnessed the return of the Jews to the Holy Land—are the fulfillment of all the signs and portents which Christ gave to his followers?

The author of this book certainly believes it is so, George Townshend, a dignitary of the Anglican Church in Ireland and a Canon of St. Patrick’s Cathedral, Dublin, resigned his Orders after forty years to proclaim his conviction that Christ has come again to an unheeding world in the person of Baha’u’llah, Founder of the Baha’i Faith.

Trailblazer said:

In spite of all that, I find inspiration in Christianity, because I am able to focus on what Jesus said about God that shone through, rather than the doctrines of Christianity. The mission of Jesus was to make God known and bear witness to the truth about God so that people could have eternal life. It was the teachings of Jesus that bestowed eternal life, not the cross sacrifice or the resurrection.

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So you have focused on what Jesus said about God. And... what did you find out? What is this "truth" that bestows eternal life? And, without this people would not have eternal life? So accepting the sacrifice of Jesus for the atonement of sins is a BS made up Christian doctrine and is not something taught in the NT?

Trailblazer said:

The bottom line is that we do not have anything Jesus wrote since Jesus did not write anything. All we have are what was written decades later, the Gospels *according to* the Apostles, but modern scholarship has proven that these four were not the actual authors of the Gospels. So at best all we have is what the Apostles remembered of what Jesus said, and what other authors wrote about that.

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And how trustworthy are these anonymous writers? Did they remember exactly what Jesus said? Or, were the stories they wrote based on the traditions that were spread about what Jesus said?

Trailblazer said:

What makes Christianity stand out are the wonderful parables of Jesus, what He actually taught, not the miracles that are attributed to Him. What is sad is that the actual teachings of Jesus have been superseded by the Christian doctrines like original sin, the resurrection, the ascension and the return of Jesus, none of which can be traced back to anything Jesus ever taught.

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So now you believe what Jesus supposedly taught? You mean the things that the unknown authors of the gospels wrote?

Trailblazer said:

According to Baha'i beliefs, Abraham and Moses were not fallible in the eyes of God.
Not everything written about Jesus is fiction, just some of the stories such as the resurrection and ascension.
Krishna founded Hinduism. I do not know about the stories, that was much too long ago to know what happened.

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Not fallible? Abraham lied and Moses killed a guy. And some things in the NT are true, so how did the Christians know what to believe as true and what was fictional? I don't think that 2000 years ago they did. Oh, and Krishna did not found Hinduism. The story about Krishna is only a small part of the vast Scriptures of Hinduism.
In another of your posts I said: ↑
"He sends Jesus and expects several different writers of the story to get it straight? And, if what you say is true, that the NT is filled with fictional stories, God let his message get told wrong from the start. It didn't have to wait for those stories to get misinterpreted. They were told wrong for the beginning."
You answered... "If you mean they were not factually correct, yes, that is true. But it got people to have faith in God and that was probably God's Purpose."

It got people to have faith in a God that the Christians concluded was a Trinity... The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit. Yeah, the fictional stories got them to have faith in a fictional God and believe in a fictional risen Saviour that will not be coming back. Christians didn't have to mess up their religious beliefs. The NT was already messed up... if you, the Baha'is are right.

CG Didymus said:

So you have focused on what Jesus said about God. And... what did you find out? What is this "truth" that bestows eternal life? And, without this people would not have eternal life? So accepting the sacrifice of Jesus for the atonement of sins is a BS made up Christian doctrine and is not something taught in the NT?

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What Jesus said about God is in the NT and it is the Truth. Atonement for sins is not part of it. That is just another false Christian doctrine.

Believing in Jesus conferred eternal life, which is a quality of life of the soul that is close to God, not the resurrection to life of the body that rises from the grave when Jesus returns. Jesus never promised to return, not once, not ever, because Jesus never planned to return since His work -- revealing the Truth about God -- was finished here.

John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

John 4:13-14 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Everlasting life is now conferred by Baha'u'llah. I cannot say what will happen to Christians who have rejected Him in favor of Jesus; only God knows. Some Baha'is that have to please everyone pussyfoot around this passage as if Baha'u'llah did not mean it literally, but He wrote what He wrote.

“The Book of God is wide open, and His Word is summoning mankind unto Him. No more than a mere handful, however, hath been found willing to cleave to His Cause, or to become the instruments for its promotion. These few have been endued with the Divine Elixir that can, alone, transmute into purest gold the dross of the world, and have been empowered to administer the infallible remedy for all the ills that afflict the children of men. No man can obtain everlasting life, unless he embraceth the truth of this inestimable, this wondrous, and sublime Revelation.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 183

CG Didymus said:

And how trustworthy are these anonymous writers? Did they remember exactly what Jesus said? Or, were the stories they wrote based on the traditions that were spread about what Jesus said?

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The stories were stories based upon traditions that were spread about what Jesus said.

CG Didymus said:

So now you believe what Jesus supposedly taught? You mean the things that the unknown authors of the gospels wrote?

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I believe that Jesus had teachings and that the gist of what He taught was remembered and recorded in the Gospels. It does not have to be word-for-word in order to convey a spiritual message.

CG Didymus said:

Not fallible? Abraham lied and Moses killed a guy. And some things in the NT are true, so how did the Christians know what to believe as true and what was fictional? I don't think that 2000 years ago they did. Oh, and Krishna did not found Hinduism. The story about Krishna is only a small part of the vast Scriptures of Hinduism.

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I do not know about Abraham but Baha'u'llah wrote in The Kitab-i-Iqan that the murder that Moses committed was not considered a sin. Maybe only the Universal Manifestations like Jesus and Baha'u'llah are infallible, I don't know.

No, Christians could not have known what was true and what was fiction 2000 years ago, but they can know now, if they put aside their traditions and used their innate intelligence. I know nothing of Hinduism. Who wrote these vast scriptures? Krishna is associated with Hinduism in the Baha'i Faith, that is all I know. Baha'u'llah never referred to Krishna so He is not in error.

CG Didymus said:

In another of your posts I said: ↑
"He sends Jesus and expects several different writers of the story to get it straight? And, if what you say is true, that the NT is filled with fictional stories, God let his message get told wrong from the start. It didn't have to wait for those stories to get misinterpreted. They were told wrong for the beginning."
You answered... "If you mean they were not factually correct, yes, that is true. But it got people to have faith in God and that was probably God's Purpose."

It got people to have faith in a God that the Christians concluded was a Trinity... The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit. Yeah, the fictional stories got them to have faith in a fictional God and believe in a fictional risen Saviour that will not be coming back. Christians didn't have to mess up their religious beliefs. The NT was already messed up... if you, the Baha'is are right.

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I agree, it is messed up. But they messed it up even more by interpreting it incorrectly and creating false doctrines. Maybe that was all they could do back then but the was then and now is now. There is really no excuse for continuing to follow false doctrines as people can think for themselves, just as you are doing.[/QUOTE]

Trailblazer said:

The position I take is that nobody comes back to life after being dead for three days.... That means it had to be a story.

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Just stories? Or, lies? The NT clearly teaches that Jesus was alive. To you, is it BS? Or, is it the Baha'i symbolic version that is true... that Jesus was "spiritually" dead and God resurrected him to "spiritual" life?

Acts 1:3 "After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God."
Acts 2:22-24 and 31-32 “Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.
23 This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.
24 But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him... that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay.
32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it.

Trailblazer said:

Baha'is do not believe that the Garden of Eden was a real Garden or that Adam and Eve were real people.
We believe that Adam was the first prophet in the Adamic Cycle of religion.
30: ADAM AND EVE

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So Adam was not a real person, but he was the first prophet in the Adamic Cycle? What was he a prophet of? If the story were true, then he broke God's commandment and ate the forbidden fruit. If he is not real, then he is not a prophet, right? Or, am I missing something here?