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Reason is the Most Important Driver of Human Moral Progress?

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
@Sunstone

It would be easier to comment if there was a written transcript

There is, although it's a bit of extra work to prepare one but worth the trouble when available and the video interests you enough.
  • Go to the Youtube version.
  • Screenshot_2019-09-29 Steven Pinker 1.png
  • Look down and to the right of the "like", "don't like", "share", "save" horizontal menu.
  • Click on the three dots. Click on "Open transcript" [when available].

  • Screenshot_2019-09-29 Steven Pinker 2.png

  • Screenshot_2019-09-29 Steven Pinker 3.png

  • Move your cursor to the beginning of the transcript (usually something close to "00:00"}
  • Press your mouse's "left click" and hold.
  • "Select" by scrolling down to the end, while holding "left click"
  • Copy.
  • Open a blank document page in a separate window.
  • Paste what you copied there.
  • Takes a couple of tries to get used to, and does not give you a perfect transcript. But it can give you something you can work with and edit.
  • An hour's worth of transcript is a lot to edit.
  • Good luck.

For those who don't have the wherewithal to follow my instructions, see attachments below.
 

Attachments

  • The long reach of reason.pdf
    229.4 KB · Views: 0
Last edited:

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
I do not want to start an argument with you, but my question is, How can we see morality getting better in a world that constantly attack each other, Both in wars but also in politics or even daily life? Morality the way I understand it is to do our best to not harm others or own interests. But today we often see, that people get more and more greedy, hateful, dishonest, and full of egoistic way of living. In my understanding that is not good morality at all.
But you see it different then me i know :)


As i stated, there are groups more interested in self and greed. There always has been. It is nothing new.

I see less poverty (although there is still too much), why? In some cases socialism has risen, in others charity has taken the lead.

People generally (forget selfish, greedy lot) are more willing to help others of different status.
 
"Reason is the key driver of human moral progress."

Comments?

What Pinker classifies as 'moral progress' is basically secular humanism, and secular humanism is far more of a product of 'irrational' Christianity than reason. The 'self-evident' moral truths of Western liberalism are anything but self-evident, although reasoning was a part of theology which contributed to value systems that developed.

The key driver of "moral progress" is environment though. Remove security and prosperity from a society, and replace them with danger and a struggle for survival, and moral progress will seem like a rather quaint notion.

At best reason is 3rd in the list:

1. Environment
2. Socialised value systems (and the instinctive moral judgements that result form internalisation of these)
3. Reason

The distinction between these is somewhat artificial morality is complex and dynamic, but overstating the role of reason is mostly an illusion of control where we judge ourselves to be more in control of our world than we actually are.
 
Last edited:

Daemon Sophic

Avatar in flux
I do not want to start an argument with you, but my question is, How can we see morality getting better in a world that constantly attack each other, Both in wars but also in politics or even daily life?
This has always been happening; but more importantly and to the point is that it actually has been happening less and less.
:eek:
I know. For many that seems anti-factual, but when considering a percentage of the human race as a total, modern times see perhaps the smallest percentage of humanity currently involved in traveling out and killing other humans (wars) than at any other point in recorded history. Witch burnings are way down. Slavery exists, yes. But compared to two hundred years ago, it is negligible and is almost invariably illegal regardless of the country in which it is still happening. And on and on.
Now, also please keep in mind that the graph line that society is traveling along is not a smooth curve toward good times, but it is in fact a bumpy, ragged path that is overall heading ‘upward’. There may be dips, big or small, some of which will head downward for years on end: but eventually the majority of humans see the (their own) failings and drive society back upward again.

As for greed and political failings. Yes for the last 50 years in the US there has been a drift toward plutocracy and this nonsense of “supply-side economics” and trickle-down economics. :rolleyes:
But that is exactly the point. Those things don’t actually work or make any sense statistically, economically, or even mathematically. That is fact. There are many in the plutocratic circles who are unwilling to consider the facts, because they will be the ones most effected when we correct this issue one day, but eventually that day will come.
However, several things should be kept in your (and everyone’s) minds.
- We as a human race have lived through aristocracies before, and have always ended them. Also, while income deparity in the US is approaching that of 18th century France, we are not there yet, and look what happened to Louie the XIV when things got that far from reason. :confused:
- Look how so many other countries have improved the status of their people in those same 50 years.
- Look how other political advancements, and technological advancements have improved life for the majority of humanity over that time frame. I’m not talking strictly about computers and cellphones, but more about agricultural techniques and machines, transport, energy efficiency (how many miles to the gallon did your 1968 car get? and did anyone even care about that back then?). But yes, even cellphones and computers let us see a larger, ore inclusive world....let us emote more with human ordeals even thousands of miles away....let us combine research and solutions for the betterment of humanity and the entire biosphere across the planet, in a way that was simply impossible even 30 or 40 years ago. How were civil and gay, and women’s rights during the days of the Vietnam War, eh?

All the petty self-serving personal human bad is still there. But all the bad was there for hundreds thousands of millennia. But now; more and more; the seeds and growth of good things and good ideas are spreading, regardless of the passing of a wanna-be despot here, or a dwindling minority of ignorant populace there.
As the TED Talk discusses, this is a trend of decades and centuries. Don’t get caught up in the day to day or few years at a time, other than to keep people aware of where reality lies, and where we need to get to.
;)
 

JJ50

Well-Known Member
You believe people wrote the bible so what are you really saying? People came up with these immoral teachings.
You want to get rid of a book people wrote so that people can write their own new rules..... But people wrote the rules you hate what if the new rules are not to your liking or shall we just dispense with human morlaity altogether and make the individual sovereign? Good luck with that.

Of course if their is a God who is the universal sovereign your dilema disappears Gods morality trumps that of man.
I know all the talking points of your supposed moral outrage at the bible and they are very petty and answered by any entry level look at the question "Why does God allow evil"

You do realise that all the things you go on about were done by people not by God.
If christians actually did what the bible told them to do it would be a vastly different world. People kill the bible doesn't kill.

Here's a task for you.... Give me an example of atrocious christian behaviour in the first 300 years of christianity.
Any murder, war, rape, scandle anything you can find. If it's such a horrible book that inspires evil you should have no trouble filling pages. Although i think you will have a hard time finding anything bad pre 300ce. That was when politics and the world you support got its hands on the faith and did what men do... Any immorality comes from the political worldly influence of people not following the spirit of the religion.
If you think that the apostles of christ would have countanenced something like the crusades or any other number of evils then you are fearfully misinformed.

The Biblical god character inspires evil as there is nothing good about that entity should it exist.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
This has always been happening; but more importantly and to the point is that it actually has been happening less and less.
:eek:
I know. For many that seems anti-factual, but when considering a percentage of the human race as a total, modern times see perhaps the smallest percentage of humanity currently involved in traveling out and killing other humans (wars) than at any other point in recorded history. Witch burnings are way down. Slavery exists, yes. But compared to two hundred years ago, it is negligible and is almost invariably illegal regardless of the country in which it is still happening. And on and on.
Now, also please keep in mind that the graph line that society is traveling along is not a smooth curve toward good times, but it is in fact a bumpy, ragged path that is overall heading ‘upward’. There may be dips, big or small, some of which will head downward for years on end: but eventually the majority of humans see the (their own) failings and drive society back upward again.

As for greed and political failings. Yes for the last 50 years in the US there has been a drift toward plutocracy and this nonsense of “supply-side economics” and trickle-down economics. :rolleyes:
But that is exactly the point. Those things don’t actually work or make any sense statistically, economically, or even mathematically. That is fact. There are many in the plutocratic circles who are unwilling to consider the facts, because they will be the ones most effected when we correct this issue one day, but eventually that day will come.
However, several things should be kept in your (and everyone’s) minds.
- We as a human race have lived through aristocracies before, and have always ended them. Also, while income deparity in the US is approaching that of 18th century France, we are not there yet, and look what happened to Louie the XIV when things got that far from reason. :confused:
- Look how so many other countries have improved the status of their people in those same 50 years.
- Look how other political advancements, and technological advancements have improved life for the majority of humanity over that time frame. I’m not talking strictly about computers and cellphones, but more about agricultural techniques and machines, transport, energy efficiency (how many miles to the gallon did your 1968 car get? and did anyone even care about that back then?). But yes, even cellphones and computers let us see a larger, ore inclusive world....let us emote more with human ordeals even thousands of miles away....let us combine research and solutions for the betterment of humanity and the entire biosphere across the planet, in a way that was simply impossible even 30 or 40 years ago. How were civil and gay, and women’s rights during the days of the Vietnam War, eh?

All the petty self-serving personal human bad is still there. But all the bad was there for hundreds thousands of millennia. But now; more and more; the seeds and growth of good things and good ideas are spreading, regardless of the passing of a wanna-be despot here, or a dwindling minority of ignorant populace there.
As the TED Talk discusses, this is a trend of decades and centuries. Don’t get caught up in the day to day or few years at a time, other than to keep people aware of where reality lies, and where we need to get to.
;)
How about all the killing in streets or the alcohol problem young people face today, where their friends push them to do evil deeds. What about drugs that kill people daily? What about the family problems that got so bad that they kill?
What about rapes?
What about more theft and immoral behavior from young people?
Why the bad language or disrespect for the adult by young people?

Yes, there have always been those who refuse to follow the law. but there is so much more evil in the world today. Unfortunately many are "blind" and can not see it, because it has become the "normal" of today
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I think the 'flaw' in this discussion is the assumption that reason is an impetus, rather than a mechanism.

I see reason more like a kind of elaborate computer program that sifts through various disparate kinds of data to produce an integrated resolution. It does not dictate the data being input, nor does it determine when satisfactory resolution has been achieved. It simply inter-relates the data that it's being given until the user declares a satisfactory result.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Although there was an interesting comment on the YouTube page of this video:

It's a shame this dialogue ignores the current monstrosities of humankind - For the first time in history, we have the ability to live sustainably, end world hunger, improve literacy and numeracy rates globally, greatly reduce disease and subsequently save millions of lives per year. Instead we what? We create a system to live by which works for itself and allows us to say "That's just how the world works". We've not evolved, we've just changed the nature of our barbarism and categorised it as the nature of capitalism.

There needs to be a godwin for "sooner or later
it all ends up being about the evil of capitalism"
 

Audie

Veteran Member
I think the 'flaw' in this discussion is the assumption that reason is an impetus, rather than a mechanism.

I see reason more like a kind of elaborate computer program that sifts through various disparate kinds of data to produce an integrated resolution. It does not dictate the data being input, nor does it determine when satisfactory resolution has been achieved. It simply inter-relates the data that it's being given until the user declares a satisfactory result.

Sooner or later everything is like a computer program
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
Buddhist monk and teacher Ajahn Chah said,

"We can bring the practice all together as morality, concentration, and wisdom. To be collected, to be controlled, this is morality. The firm establishing of the mind within that control is concentration. Complete, overall knowledge within the activity in which we are engaged is wisdom. The practice, in brief, is just morality, concentration, and wisdom, or in other words, the path. There is no other way."
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
I do not want to start an argument with you, but my question is, How can we see morality getting better in a world that constantly attack each other, Both in wars but also in politics or even daily life? Morality the way I understand it is to do our best to not harm others or own interests. But today we often see, that people get more and more greedy, hateful, dishonest, and full of egoistic way of living. In my understanding that is not good morality at all.
But you see it different then me i know :)

Because it was even worse in the past. And more brutal.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Here's a task for you.... Give me an example of atrocious christian behaviour in the first 300 years of christianity.

I find it interesting that you cut off the time allowed just before Christianity got into power. Coincidence?

Extend that time period to 500 years and there are plentiful examples.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
You believe people wrote the bible so what are you really saying? People came up with these immoral teachings.
You want to get rid of a book people wrote so that people can write their own new rules..... But people wrote the rules you hate what if the new rules are not to your liking or shall we just dispense with human morlaity altogether and make the individual sovereign? Good luck with that.

Of course if their is a God who is the universal sovereign your dilema disappears Gods morality trumps that of man.
I know all the talking points of your supposed moral outrage at the bible and they are very petty and answered by any entry level look at the question "Why does God allow evil"

You do realise that all the things you go on about were done by people not by God.
If christians actually did what the bible told them to do it would be a vastly different world. People kill the bible doesn't kill.

Here's a task for you.... Give me an example of atrocious christian behaviour in the first 300 years of christianity.
Any murder, war, rape, scandle anything you can find. If it's such a horrible book that inspires evil you should have no trouble filling pages. Although i think you will have a hard time finding anything bad pre 300ce. That was when politics and the world you support got its hands on the faith and did what men do... Any immorality comes from the political worldly influence of people not following the spirit of the religion.
If you think that the apostles of christ would have countanenced something like the crusades or any other number of evils then you are fearfully misinformed.

Such a smokescreen!

The bible is full of profoundly immoral behaviour on
the part of "god" and its mimions.

In there somewhere you trot out the well worn excuse
that god makes the rules.

Any excuse or explanation for bible-garbage will do
for a believer of course; look at the lunacy that creationists
come up with.

From outside the cult it only makes you guys look worse.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member

"Reason is the key driver of human moral progress."

Comments?

I'm not sure I would agree.

To my mind, our capacity for empathy and identification with others has been the key driver of human moral progress throughout history, and this was obviously derived both from our own sense of self (and recognising that other people were also 'selves' just like us with similar feelings, wants, needs and desires) and our sociability as tribal beings, reared in families and friendship groups for survival purposes.

There are many studies demonstrating that people often make moral judgements intuitively, with reason having an important but ancillary role.

Reason by itself, as abstract logic, can result in very diverse justifications for practices that many of us in the West would regard as grossly immoral but not necessarily irrational or devoid of logic. Reason with empathy has certainly been essential to arguments about morality and changing moral norms, but by itself - no, I don't think so.

I would take 'eugenics' as an example (both negative - i.e. 'left to die' - and positive, that is actively killing)

Amongst many ancient Greeks and Romans, it was deemed perfectly in keeping with reason for those of a weak, hereditary constitution or with a disability or mental illness to be left to die, without receiving care from the rest of society at society's expense and also to be prohibited from breeding. Thus, infanticide by exposure was endemic in these societies and the founding constitution of the Roman Republic - the Twelve Tablets - actually mandated, as stated in Cicero’s dialogue De Legibus (Cic. Leg.iii 8.19): "cito necatus tamquam ex tabulis insignis ad deformitatem puer ("A notably deformed child shall be killed immediately").

None exemplified this better than the great Stoic philosopher Seneca (c. 4 BC – AD 65):


"We put down mad dogs; we kill the wild, untamed ox; we use the knife on sick sheep to stop their infecting the flock; we destroy abnormal offspring at birth; children, too, if they are born weak or deformed, we drown. Yet this is not the work of anger, but of reason - to separate the sound from the worthless"

- (Seneca, Lucius Annaeus (1995). Seneca: Moral and Political Essays. Cambridge University Press. p. 32. ISBN 0-5213-4818-8. Retrieved November 2, 2013.)

Or as Plato put it in his Republic:


Socrates:[9] These two practices [legal and medical] will treat the bodies and minds of those of your citizens who are naturally well endowed in these respects; as for the rest, those with a poor physical constitution will be allowed to die, and those with irredeemably rotten minds will be put to death. Right?

Glaucon: Yes, we’ve shown that this is the best course for those at the receiving end of the treatment as well as for the community.
(409e-410a)

Now, most people today in the West would regard such a view as "immoral" (unless one were trying to relieve someone of unimaginable suffering, as opposed to the Greek view of these persons being worthless or a drain on society) but is it really against reason? Classical Greece and Rome were eminently reasonable societies that set a high value upon philosophy and intellectual enquiry. We aren't talking Nazi Germany with its strident anti-intellectualism. Nor were such social norms limited to the Graeco-Roman world. While the ancient Jews did not practise infanticide or eugenics against the weak (and there was a strong Torah-based and prophetic tradition of advocating for the lowly and oppressed against the strong), some Sadducee and Essene Judeans rigidly interpreted the purity laws of the Pentateuch to reach somewhat similar conclusions, as we can see from the Community Rule at Qumran (dead sea scrolls):


Fools, madmen, simpletons and imbeciles, the blind, the maimed, the lame, the deaf and minors, none of these may enter the midst of the community (CD 15.15-17)​


The first century Roman Jewish historian, Josephus, also tells us that at least by his time: 'Anyone who touches or lives under the same roof [with a leper] is regarded unclean' (Contra Apionem 1.281) and that such people were kept away from normal society (Antiquitates Judaicae 9:74). 'As an attack on the skin [...] leprosy threatens or attacks [...] integrity, wholeness and completeness of the community and its members' (Carter 2000:199; cf. Pilch 1981:113).

And again, on strictly 'rational' grounds....
why not? Leprosy was a terrible disease. If lepers are a threat to the community, why not just leave them in a colony somewhere to die with other lepers and keep healthy people safe? The community and its survival comes first, over the welfare of these sick individuals. Many would have seen that as eminently reasonable. Ancient Israel was a society capable of producing great works of wisdom like Ecclesiastes and Sirach, with their startlingly astute observations on life. This was not an 'irrational' society in the context of the ancient world - Jews had a reputation among Greeks as a nation of philosophers, an especially philosophical people.

The Greeks and Romans were rational but didn't have a particularly developed notion of innate human dignity, and can we really blame them? The natural order that Aristotle and other natural philosophers saw around them was 'dog eat dog' - predatory animals feasting upon weaker herbivores and characterised by a seeming 'hierarchy' e.g. certain species had 'alpha-males' and such that seemed to naturally privilege males, courtesy of their greater bodily strength, over females.

Likewise, the received customs passed down from the ancestors and believed to originate from the gods themselves, presupposed inherent, natural inequalities between people. There were slaves, and Aristotle took it for granted that some people - barbarians, those who didn't speak Greek - were 'naturally slaves', born to be subordinated to their betters ("that one should command and another obey is not just necessary but expedient”). An anecdote attributed to a number of ancient philosophers (including Thales and Socrates) epitomized a principle of the laws of nature many took for a self-evident truth: “He thanked Fortune for three things: ‘first, that I am a human and not a beast; second, that I am a man and not a woman; third, that I am a Greek and not a barbarian”. Thucydides, in his history of the Peloponnesian War, would put it even more bluntly than any mere superiority complex: “The strong do what they have the power to do, and the weak must suck it up”.

Friedrich Nietzsche in the late 19th century and the 20th century eugenicists like Galton, applying Darwinian evolutionary theory to human social relations, deemed this Platonic-Aristotelian-Spartan norm to be the most 'rational' mode of conduct. From the Kaufmann translation of The Antichrist ss.2 we find that he wrote:

"What is good? - All that heightens the feeling of power, power itself in man. What is bad - All that proceeds from weakness. The weak and ill-constituted shall perish: first principle of our philanthropy. And we shall help them do so. What is more harmful than any vice? - Active sympathy for the ill-constituted and weak - Christianity..."

In 1910, Churchill wrote to the then-British Prime Minister, Asquith, expressing his support for legislation that proposed to introduce a compulsory sterilisation program in the UK, saying: “The unnatural and increasingly rapid growth of the feeble-minded and insane classes, coupled as it is with a steady restriction among the thrifty , energetic and superior stocks, constitutes a national and race danger which it is impossible to exaggerate … I feel that the source from which the stream of madness is fed should be cut off and sealed up before another year has passed.” Similarly, George Bernard Shaw wrote: "The only fundamental and possible socialism is the socialisation of the selective breeding of man." Bertrand Russell proposed that the state should promulgate colour-coded "procreation tickets" to prevent the gene pool of the elite being diluted by inferior human beings.

If we want a healthy, genetically improved human species - what's 'irrational' about it?

Well, its "immoral" because we empathsize with the poor, innocent souls who are the victims of such policies and believe that they offend deeply-felt humane and intuitive values.
 
Last edited:

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
It was different, but a lot more people were spiritual then they are today.

Which only shows spirituality and morality have little to do with each other.

The Spanish Inquisition was done by 'spiritual' people. The burning of witches was done by 'spiritual' people. Execution of heretics was done by 'spiritual' people. The Crusades were done by 'spiritual' people.

Morality has improved. At least now we see slavery as an evil. We are *much* less inclined to murder now than in the past. Torture, while it certainly exists in abundance, is widely condemned now, when it was actively encouraged before.

Do we have a LONG way to go? Most definitely. But have we improved? Yes.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
I'm not sure I would agree.

To my mind, our capacity for empathy and identification with others has been the key driver of human moral progress throughout history, and this was obviously derived both from our own sense of self (and recognising that other people were also 'selves' just like us with similar feelings, wants, needs and desires) and our sociability as tribal beings, reared in families and friendship groups for survival purposes.

There are many studies demonstrating that people often make moral judgements intuitively, with reason having an important but ancillary role.

Reason by itself, as abstract logic, can result in very diverse justifications for practices that many of us in the West would regard as grossly immoral but not necessarily irrational or devoid of logic. Reason with empathy has certainly been essential to arguments about morality and changing moral norms, but by itself - no, I don't think so.

I would take 'eugenics' as an example (both negative - i.e. 'left to die' - and positive, that is actively killing)

Amongst many ancient Greeks and Romans, it was deemed perfectly in keeping with reason for those of a weak, hereditary constitution or with a disability or mental illness to be left to die, without receiving care from the rest of society at society's expense and also to be prohibited from breeding. Thus, infanticide by exposure was endemic in these societies and the founding constitution of the Roman Republic - the Twelve Tablets - actually mandated, as stated in Cicero’s dialogue De Legibus (Cic. Leg.iii 8.19): "cito necatus tamquam ex tabulis insignis ad deformitatem puer ("A notably deformed child shall be killed immediately").

None exemplified this better than the great Stoic philosopher Seneca (c. 4 BC – AD 65):


"We put down mad dogs; we kill the wild, untamed ox; we use the knife on sick sheep to stop their infecting the flock; we destroy abnormal offspring at birth; children, too, if they are born weak or deformed, we drown. Yet this is not the work of anger, but of reason - to separate the sound from the worthless"

- (Seneca, Lucius Annaeus (1995). Seneca: Moral and Political Essays. Cambridge University Press. p. 32. ISBN 0-5213-4818-8. Retrieved November 2, 2013.)

Or as Plato put it in his Republic:


Socrates:[9] These two practices [legal and medical] will treat the bodies and minds of those of your citizens who are naturally well endowed in these respects; as for the rest, those with a poor physical constitution will be allowed to die, and those with irredeemably rotten minds will be put to death. Right?

Glaucon: Yes, we’ve shown that this is the best course for those at the receiving end of the treatment as well as for the community.
(409e-410a)

Now, most people today in the West would regard such a view as "immoral" (unless one were trying to relieve someone of unimaginable suffering, as opposed to the Greek view of these persons being worthless or a drain on society) but is it really against reason? Classical Greece and Rome were eminently reasonable societies that set a high value upon philosophy and intellectual enquiry. We aren't talking Nazi Germany with its strident anti-intellectualism. Nor were such social norms limited to the Graeco-Roman world. While the ancient Jews did not practise infanticide or eugenics against the weak (and there was a strong Torah-based and prophetic tradition of advocating for the lowly and oppressed against the strong), some Sadducee and Essene Judeans rigidly interpreted the purity laws of the Pentateuch to reach somewhat similar conclusions, as we can see from the Community Rule at Qumran (dead sea scrolls):


Fools, madmen, simpletons and imbeciles, the blind, the maimed, the lame, the deaf and minors, none of these may enter the midst of the community (CD 15.15-17)​


The first century Roman Jewish historian, Josephus, also tells us that at least by his time: 'Anyone who touches or lives under the same roof [with a leper] is regarded unclean' (Contra Apionem 1.281) and that such people were kept away from normal society (Antiquitates Judaicae 9:74). 'As an attack on the skin [...] leprosy threatens or attacks [...] integrity, wholeness and completeness of the community and its members' (Carter 2000:199; cf. Pilch 1981:113).

And again, on strictly 'rational' grounds....
why not? Leprosy was a terrible disease. If lepers are a threat to the community, why not just leave them in a colony somewhere to die with other lepers and keep healthy people safe? The community and its survival comes first, over the welfare of these sick individuals. Many would have seen that as eminently reasonable. Ancient Israel was a society capable of producing great works of wisdom like Ecclesiastes and Sirach, with their startlingly astute observations on life. This was not an 'irrational' society in the context of the ancient world - Jews had a reputation among Greeks as a nation of philosophers, an especially philosophical people.

The Greeks and Romans were rational but didn't have a particularly developed notion of innate human dignity, and can we really blame them? The natural order that Aristotle and other natural philosophers saw around them was 'dog eat dog' - predatory animals feasting upon weaker herbivores and characterised by a seeming 'hierarchy' e.g. certain species had 'alpha-males' and such that seemed to naturally privilege males, courtesy of their greater bodily strength, over females.

Likewise, the received customs passed down from the ancestors and believed to originate from the gods themselves, presupposed inherent, natural inequalities between people. There were slaves, and Aristotle took it for granted that some people - barbarians, those who didn't speak Greek - were 'naturally slaves', born to be subordinated to their betters ("that one should command and another obey is not just necessary but expedient”). An anecdote attributed to a number of ancient philosophers (including Thales and Socrates) epitomized a principle of the laws of nature many took for a self-evident truth: “He thanked Fortune for three things: ‘first, that I am a human and not a beast; second, that I am a man and not a woman; third, that I am a Greek and not a barbarian”. Thucydides, in his history of the Peloponnesian War, would put it even more bluntly than any mere superiority complex: “The strong do what they have the power to do, and the weak must suck it up”.

Friedrich Nietzsche in the late 19th century and the 20th century eugenicists like Galton, applying Darwinian evolutionary theory to human social relations, deemed this Platonic-Aristotelian-Spartan norm to be the most 'rational' mode of conduct. FRom the Kaufmann translation of The Antichrist ss.2 we find that he wrote:

"What is good? - All that heightens the feeling of power, power itself in man. What is bad - All that proceeds from weakness. The weak and ill-constituted shall perish: first principle of our philanthropy. And we shall help them do so. What is more harmful than any vice? - Active sympathy for the ill-constituted and weak - Christianity..."

In 1910, Churchill wrote to the then-British Prime Minister, Asquith, expressing his support for legislation that proposed to introduce a compulsory sterilisation program in the UK, saying: “The unnatural and increasingly rapid growth of the feeble-minded and insane classes, coupled as it is with a steady restriction among the thrifty , energetic and superior stocks, constitutes a national and race danger which it is impossible to exaggerate … I feel that the source from which the stream of madness is fed should be cut off and sealed up before another year has passed.” Similarly, George Bernard Shaw wrote: "The only fundamental and possible socialism is the socialisation of the selective breeding of man." Bertrand Russell proposed that the state should promulgate colour-coded "procreation tickets" to prevent the gene pool of the elite being diluted by inferior human beings.

If we want a healthy, genetically improved human species - what's 'irrational' about it?

Well, its "immoral" because we empathsize with the poor, innocent souls who are the victims of such policies and believe that they offend deeply-felt humane and intuitive values.

So do you find eugenics to be immoral?
 
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