Did Jesus actually die

I apologize to Christians right off the bat. Please don't take this thread the wrong way. It is not my intention to be irreverent to you or your belief system. If you feel you might be insulted please click-away now and do not proceed reading any further.

If you are still here, hopefully, your faith is strong enough to survive a little self-inspection.

So recently I saw someone's avatar pic having a picture of Jesus and underneath it, it said, "If you don't sin, Jesus died for nothing."

This got me thinking. You cannot really kill God. Jesus did not really die because he was resurrected. So my thinking is no harm no foul. Am I just thinking about this the wrong way? Again, you can't kill God. So did Jesus really die? I don't think so.

Again, my apologies to Christians with weak faith who are insulted by my speculations.

dfnj said:

I apologize to Christians right off the bat. Please don't take this thread the wrong way. It is not my intention to be irreverent to you or your belief system. If you feel you might be insulted please click-away now and do not proceed reading any further.

If you are still here, hopefully, your faith is strong enough to survive a little self-inspection.

So recently I saw someone's avatar pic having a picture of Jesus and underneath it said, "If you don't sin, Jesus died for nothing."

This got me thinking. You cannot really kill God. Jesus did not really die because he was resurrected. So my thinking is no harm no foul. Am I just thinking about this the wrong way? Again, you can't kill God. So did Jesus really die? I don't think so.

Again, my apologies to Christians with weak faith who are insulted by my speculations.

Click to expand...

I’m not Christian, but it seems certain that the physical body of Jesus passed away.

Perhaps this is evidence that Jesus is not God?

dfnj said:

I apologize to Christians right off the bat. Please don't take this thread the wrong way. It is not my intention to be irreverent to you or your belief system. If you feel you might be insulted please click-away now and do not proceed reading any further.

If you are still here, hopefully, your faith is strong enough to survive a little self-inspection.

So recently I saw someone's avatar pic having a picture of Jesus and underneath it, it said, "If you don't sin, Jesus died for nothing."

This got me thinking. You cannot really kill God. Jesus did not really die because he was resurrected. So my thinking is no harm no foul. Am I just thinking about this the wrong way? Again, you can't kill God. So did Jesus really die? I don't think so.

Again, my apologies to Christians with weak faith who are insulted by my speculations.

Click to expand...

To just die and remain dead is not saving anyone.

So, Jesus is supposed to be the firstborn from the dead. In other words the first to be raised. But, that doesn't mean we also are not raised. It is the resurrection of Jesus that gives us hope. Without it we cannot know we ourselves will be raised. If Jesus remained dead then so would we.

So it is indeed true that you couldn't keep Jesus dead as even Acts 2:24 makes clear.

And I understand a lot of people think it was "cheating" or something? I don't know. But, they're missing the point. The point of Jesus dying was not to punish Himself so that we could avoid punishment. Although that is part of it; that's not the main point here. The main point of Jesus dying was so that He could rise from the dead. The point of His death is ultimately to obtain power over death through the resurrection.

Jesus is the Word of Life. By coming alive from the dead; He gives hope to all humanity that they may also live again even though they die. This is why Jesus said "I am the resurrection and the Life he that believes in me, though he were dead yet shall he live" (John 5:29)

74x12 said:

To just die and remain dead is not saving anyone.

So, Jesus is supposed to be the firstborn from the dead. In other words the first to be raised. But, that doesn't mean we also are not raised. It is the resurrection of Jesus that gives us hope. Without it we cannot know we ourselves will be raised. If Jesus remained dead then so would we.

So it is indeed true that you couldn't keep Jesus dead as even Acts 2:24 makes clear.

And I understand a lot of people think it was "cheating" or something? I don't know. But, they're missing the point. The point of Jesus dying was not to punish Himself so that we could avoid punishment. Although that is part of it; that's not the main point here. The main point of Jesus dying was so that He could rise from the dead. The point of His death is ultimately to obtain power over death through the resurrection.

Jesus is the Word of Life. By coming alive from the dead; He gives hope to all humanity that they may also live again even though they die. This is why Jesus said "I am the resurrection and the Life he that believes in me, though he were dead yet shall he live" (John 5:29)

Click to expand...

Jesus died physically in his human nature as man
Jesus as far as his divine nature could not die as God

Jesus was one person with two nature so this fine and in fact acknowledged in the book of John 2:19 This is referred to as

Fully man. Human enough to die physically
Fully God. Divine enough to raise his human phsical body from the dead

whirlingmerc said:

Jesus died physically in his human nature as man
Jesus as far as his divine nature could not die as God

Jesus was one person with two nature so this fine and in fact acknowledged in the book of John 2:19 This is referred to as

Fully man. Human enough to die physically
Fully God. Divine enough to raise his human phsical body from the dead

Click to expand...

Yes, and everything Jesus obtained in His humanity is transferred over to His Spirit so when you receive the Spirit you get all the benefit.

dfnj said:

I apologize to Christians right off the bat. Please don't take this thread the wrong way. It is not my intention to be irreverent to you or your belief system. If you feel you might be insulted please click-away now and do not proceed reading any further.

If you are still here, hopefully, your faith is strong enough to survive a little self-inspection.

So recently I saw someone's avatar pic having a picture of Jesus and underneath it, it said, "If you don't sin, Jesus died for nothing."

This got me thinking. You cannot really kill God. Jesus did not really die because he was resurrected. So my thinking is no harm no foul. Am I just thinking about this the wrong way? Again, you can't kill God. So did Jesus really die? I don't think so.

Again, my apologies to Christians with weak faith who are insulted by my speculations.

Click to expand...

I believe Jesus as fully God/fully human certainly died physically. Yet, as God He was able to conquer death and resurrect bodily on behalf of humanity. Nevertheless, I believe it was the separation from the Father in payment for the sins of the world, which was the most horrendous experience for the Son, much more so than physical death.

Jesus: Great High Priest and Perfect Sacrifice

Two aspects of the death of Christ show something of the mystery of His death and the suffering He took onto Himself for our sake. The death of Jesus on the cross took but six hours as measured in dynamical time. Jesus was, for the first three hours on the cross, our Great High Priest. From noon till 3 P.M., during which time a strange and terrible darkness came over the earth, the High Priest became the Sacrifice.

If we now consider the nature of time and eternity (see Arthur C. Custance, Journey out of Time, Ref. 2) it must surely become clear that what was (for us) three hours' suffering by Jesus in total estrangement from the Father---was for Jesus an event in eternity which never ends. The work of Jesus on the cross, as far as we are concerned, is completely finished. Jesus is not now hanging on a cross. He has been raised from the dead, and sits in heaven, fully in charge of the universe as a resurrected man. One man, one son of Adam, Jesus the Lord is now living in glory and He is in charge of the universe.

But in another sense, if we could step into eternity and view an eternal being such as the Son of God experiencing life---if we could see things from the vantage point of eternity---then we would perceive that a part of the eternal God must suffer forever, outside of time, because of human sin. Jesus' Death: Six Hours of Eternity on the Cross

dfnj said:

"If you don't sin, Jesus died for nothing."

Click to expand...

Whoa! Wonder what that means? Time to google it.
Ahh, ... here we go: Ricky Gervais on Twitter



Cute joke, I guess.

Jesus was like every human who ever lived. He had a physical body and a spirit. The difference was that humans have a human spirit. Jesus had the spirit of God. Jesus's physical body died. His spirit did not.

dfnj said:

I apologize to Christians right off the bat. Please don't take this thread the wrong way. It is not my intention to be irreverent to you or your belief system. If you feel you might be insulted please click-away now and do not proceed reading any further.

If you are still here, hopefully, your faith is strong enough to survive a little self-inspection.

So recently I saw someone's avatar pic having a picture of Jesus and underneath it, it said, "If you don't sin, Jesus died for nothing."

This got me thinking. You cannot really kill God. Jesus did not really die because he was resurrected. So my thinking is no harm no foul. Am I just thinking about this the wrong way? Again, you can't kill God. So did Jesus really die? I don't think so.

Again, my apologies to Christians with weak faith who are insulted by my speculations.

Click to expand...

Of course He died. His mortal body died and was buried, just like we all will die and be buried (or cremated or whatever). He was born to a mortal body, He died as a mortal.

He was resurrected, as we all will be. but one cannot be resurrected if one doesn't DIE FIRST. The whole idea is that the body dies, the spirit goes on, and then we will be resurrected when the spirit is given a new, eternal body. Some people have different ideas about what resurrection actually means, but the main point is this: resurrection is a return to life; one MUST DIE before one can do that.

Can you kill God? Yes and no. Jesus' spirit did not die, but separated from His mortal body. He, according to the NT, spent some time with the 'spirits in prison,' teaching them. Then He was resurrected. According to the NT, that's what will happen to all of us. We will die. We will spend some time as spirits, We will be resurrected.

I have never understood this particular argument. the thing is, if JESUS didn't actually die BECAUSE He was resurrected, then none of the rest of us will die, either, BECAUSE we will all be resurrected. At least, that's so if you accept the premise given as a part of the whole story of Jesus, and one must do that if one is attempting to argue according to the rules of that story. To do other wise is like arguing that oranges cannot be sweet....because avocados aren't.

dfnj said:

This got me thinking. You cannot really kill God. Jesus did not really die because he was resurrected. So my thinking is no harm no foul. Am I just thinking about this the wrong way?

Click to expand...

It is true that no one can kill God.
and this proves that Jesus is not God
because the only God is immortal while Jesus died.



Is Jesus eternal? Eternal - adjective: eternal - lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning?

Is Jesus immortal? adjective. not mortal; not liable or subject to death; undying: our immortal souls. remembered or celebrated through all time: the immortal words of Lincoln. not liable to perish or decay; imperishable; everlasting?

Is Jesus invisible? adjective: invisible unable to be seen; not visible to the eye.?



Jesus was born [Matt 2:1], died [Mark 15:39] and was seen after God raised him from the dead [Acts 10:40]
Therefore Jesus is not God in all aspects mentioned in 1 Tim 1:17

dfnj said:

Again, you can't kill God. So did Jesus really die?

Click to expand...

God did not die. It was Jesus who died. God raised Jesus from the dead. And this is what the Bible says:

Acts 4:10 New International Version (NIV)
then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed.

74x12 said:

Yes, and everything Jesus obtained in His humanity is transferred over to His Spirit so when you receive the Spirit you get all the benefit.

Click to expand...

There is the hypostatic union. One person of Christ with two natures
which was the subject of the council of chalcedon

MJFlores said:

It is true that no one can kill God.
and this proves that Jesus is not God
because the only God is immortal while Jesus died.

Is Jesus eternal? Eternal - adjective: eternal - lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning?

Is Jesus immortal? adjective. not mortal; not liable or subject to death; undying: our immortal souls. remembered or celebrated through all time: the immortal words of Lincoln. not liable to perish or decay; imperishable; everlasting?

Is Jesus invisible? adjective: invisible unable to be seen; not visible to the eye.?

Jesus was born [Matt 2:1], died [Mark 15:39] and was seen after God raised him from the dead [Acts 10:40]
Therefore Jesus is not God in all aspects mentioned in 1 Tim 1:17



God did not die. It was Jesus who died. God raised Jesus from the dead. And this is what the Bible says:

Acts 4:10 New International Version (NIV)
then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed.

Click to expand...

Jesus could die pertaining to his human nature
but Jesus said 'tear down this temple and in 3 days I will raise it again'
Jesus in his divine nature raised his physically dead body pertaining to his human nature

whirlingmerc said:

There is the hypostatic union. One person of Christ with two natures
which was the subject of the council of chalcedon

Click to expand...

Yes

dfnj said:

I apologize to Christians right off the bat. Please don't take this thread the wrong way. It is not my intention to be irreverent to you or your belief system. If you feel you might be insulted please click-away now and do not proceed reading any further.

If you are still here, hopefully, your faith is strong enough to survive a little self-inspection.

So recently I saw someone's avatar pic having a picture of Jesus and underneath it, it said, "If you don't sin, Jesus died for nothing."

This got me thinking. You cannot really kill God. Jesus did not really die because he was resurrected. So my thinking is no harm no foul. Am I just thinking about this the wrong way? Again, you can't kill God. So did Jesus really die? I don't think so.

Again, my apologies to Christians with weak faith who are insulted by my speculations.

Click to expand...

No insult taken...reasonable question.....

You are correct...no one can kill an immortal God......but nowhere does the Bible say that Jesus was the immortal God.....it says that he was "the son" of the immortal God. Just because God is immortal doesn't mean that Jesus was. Born as a mortal human, Jesus was the exact equivalent of Adam, able to redeem mankind out of the debt that Adam passed onto his children. (Romans 5:12) He offered a perfect life for a perfect life to balance the scales of God's justice.

According to the laws of redemption in Israel a man could pay for someone to be released from a debt.....but the payment had to be exactly what was owed. Jesus did not have to be God to pay the debt.....he just had to be sinless like Adam was in the beginning, and hence why he had to come from Heaven because no other human was sinless.
Or put another way, if someone was standing in front of a firing squad, Jesus would be the one to step in and take the bullet.

Jesus did die, because if he didn't pay the debt, then the human race is still condemned to death for all time.

He not only died, but he suffered a lot before taking his final breath. He remained in a tomb for parts of three days and nights. On the third day God raised him up, not in a physical body but in a spiritual one, able to materialize and dematerialize at will. He did not spend all his time with his disciples as he did prior to his death. He only "appeared" to them on occasion. He remained on earth for 40 days, strengthening his apostles to continue what he started, before finally ascending to his God and Father in heaven.

whirlingmerc said:

Jesus could die pertaining to his human nature
but Jesus said 'tear down this temple and in 3 days I will raise it again'
Jesus in his divine nature raised his physically dead body pertaining to his human nature

Click to expand...

You made reference to Council of Chalcedon



Date 451AD
Accepted by

• Catholic Church
• Eastern Orthodox Church
• Anglican Communion
• Lutheranism
• Old Catholic Church
• most other Protestants

Convoked by Emperor Marcian of the Byzantine Empire
President Anatolius, Patriarch of Constantinople; A board of government officials and senators, led by the patrician Anatolius
Attendance Approx. 520
Topics the judgements issued at the Second Council of Ephesus in 449, the alleged offences of Bishop Dioscorus of Alexandria, the definition of the Godhead and manhood of Christ, many disputes involving particular bishops and sees



Followers of the Council believe its most important achievement was to issue the Chalcedonian Definition, stating that Jesus is "perfect both in deity and in humanness; this selfsame one is also actually God and actually man.
Council of Chalcedon - Wikipedia

My comments:

1. Are you going to rely on people who lived in 451 AD to decide on who Jesus is?
2. Who do you follow - Emperor Marcian of the Byzantine Empire, [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolius_of_Constantinople']Anatolius, Patriarch of Constantinople and the 520 unanimous participants[/URL] or the Lord Jesus Christ himself?
   
3. Surely these people are already dust in their graves and unable to speak on their justifications on how they arrived to the conclusion that Jesus is "perfect both in deity and in humanness; this selfsame one is also actually God and actually man. How sure are you that they are correct?
4. If they made an error, are you willing to sacrifice your soul by joining the people who believed them from 451 AD to the present time - by blindly accepting the doctrine they set?
5. What if these people [in their own preference] formulated this doctrine and unknowingly you have been had?
   
6. If the teachings of Council of Chalcedon differs from the word of God in the Bible - which one would you follow and why?
7. Do you follow dead men [with their human doctrines] or God [whose commands are written in the Bible?]

If you can't answer, that is OK., many also could not

dfnj said:

I apologize to Christians right off the bat. Please don't take this thread the wrong way. It is not my intention to be irreverent to you or your belief system. If you feel you might be insulted please click-away now and do not proceed reading any further.

If you are still here, hopefully, your faith is strong enough to survive a little self-inspection.

So recently I saw someone's avatar pic having a picture of Jesus and underneath it, it said, "If you don't sin, Jesus died for nothing."

This got me thinking. You cannot really kill God. Jesus did not really die because he was resurrected. So my thinking is no harm no foul. Am I just thinking about this the wrong way? Again, you can't kill God. So did Jesus really die? I don't think so.

Again, my apologies to Christians with weak faith who are insulted by my speculations.

Click to expand...

No apologies needed.

I think the issue here is how we define "death". In Hebrew - in the book of Genesis - the word death is actually plural.

Certainly, in Christian understanding, when the body dies the spirit still lives so only the body died. The only reason the body dies is because of sin.

Did the body of Jesus die in Christian understanding? Yes, we he assumed the sins of the world. It was only then that the body would be able to die. But since he himself never really sinned, for he was made the sin of mankind, he had the power to resurrect the body.

To say that he didn't die would be to say that when Lazarus was raised from the dead, he didn't really die. I don't believe that would be a correct interpretation.

I do not know why people say Jesus died in the body but not in spirit.



I believe their agenda is they cannot get over the fact that Jesus was truly human.
If the Bible says Christ died, he died
Not some comatose Christ but he really died

Romans 8:34 New International Version (NIV)
Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.

Check your Bibles
Don't believe me but the words of the Bible
Isn't it a fact that someone raised Christ Jesus to life?
Isn't it a fact that Christ Jesus is at the right hand of God?
Now the fact is clear - CHRIST JESUS IS NOT GOD!

@dfnj
Yes Jesus is God(John 20:28-29) (1 John 5:20)(Hebrews 1:8-9)(Isaiah 9:6) and yes Jesus died.
But God did not "really" die but only his human side. How should we understand this?
God consists of soul, spirit(Acts 5:3-4) and body. The soul is the Father, the spirit is the Holy Spirit and the body is Jesus(John 1:1+14). And the human body of God has died.
It is almost like us human beings, we also consist of soul, spirit and body (1 Thessalonians 5:23; Luke 12:4-5 ) and only our body is able to die. After he has died, our spirit, which keeps the body alive, goes back to God. But our soul that still lives goes to the kingdom of the dead. Where paradise and hell are.(Luke 16:19-31)
But what exactly are soul and spirit?
The soul is the personality of the respective person, thus also that of God, the Father is the personality of the three. Thus the Holy Spirit and the body (Jesus) are exactly what the Father is, they are one.
But the Spirit differs a little between our Spirit and God's Spirit. Our spirit is there to keep our body alive (James 2:26) and it is there to communicate with God (Holy Spirit).(Romans 8:16)

dfnj said:

I apologize to Christians right off the bat. Please don't take this thread the wrong way. It is not my intention to be irreverent to you or your belief system. If you feel you might be insulted please click-away now and do not proceed reading any further.

If you are still here, hopefully, your faith is strong enough to survive a little self-inspection.

So recently I saw someone's avatar pic having a picture of Jesus and underneath it, it said, "If you don't sin, Jesus died for nothing."

This got me thinking. You cannot really kill God. Jesus did not really die because he was resurrected. So my thinking is no harm no foul. Am I just thinking about this the wrong way? Again, you can't kill God. So did Jesus really die? I don't think so.

Again, my apologies to Christians with weak faith who are insulted by my speculations.

Click to expand...

In Islamic culture
The traitor who guided the soldiers to kill Jesus and went into the cave to get him out
that time God had raised Jesus to heaven and died
When the traitor came out of the cave, God retaliated against him in the analogy of Jesus' shape
Everyone thought the traitor is Jesus while traitor surprised that everyone was caught him while traitor was the guide to help hunt Jesus
Jesus entered a cycle called stillness (dormancy) for 20 - - hibernate 20 - -

In the hadith, Jesus descends with his head dripping out of water, perhaps indicating that he was in a lake or aquarium, or perhaps because of a revival of Jesus that would be sprayed with water.

74x12 said:

To just die and remain dead is not saving anyone.

So, Jesus is supposed to be the firstborn from the dead. In other words the first to be raised. But, that doesn't mean we also are not raised. It is the resurrection of Jesus that gives us hope. Without it we cannot know we ourselves will be raised. If Jesus remained dead then so would we.

So it is indeed true that you couldn't keep Jesus dead as even Acts 2:24 makes clear.

And I understand a lot of people think it was "cheating" or something? I don't know. But, they're missing the point. The point of Jesus dying was not to punish Himself so that we could avoid punishment. Although that is part of it; that's not the main point here. The main point of Jesus dying was so that He could rise from the dead. The point of His death is ultimately to obtain power over death through the resurrection.

Jesus is the Word of Life. By coming alive from the dead; He gives hope to all humanity that they may also live again even though they die. This is why Jesus said "I am the resurrection and the Life he that believes in me, though he were dead yet shall he live" (John 5:29)

Click to expand...

Then it's not really a sacrifice.