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Magic

ecco

Veteran Member
I would call cargo cults a prime example of the truth of Clark's third law, myself, It certainly is from the POV of those believers.

It doesn't matter how it "appeared" to the ignorant people. It was not a supernatural event. Perception does not change reality.

The problem here is that if there were an 'atheist' among the folks of the cargo cult, who utterly dismissed the idea of planes dropping goodies when they flew over the island as 'supernatural nonsense,' he would have been utterly wrong, wouldn't he?

Indeed he would have been wrong. But he saw the packages actually being dropped, so his use of the phrase "supernatural nonsense" must have been caused by something else entirely. Perhaps one of the cartons hit him in the head causing his denial. I have not seen your God deliver anything.

I mean, those planes did exist. They did deliver food and supplies. (shrug)

Unlike anything from your God.


My point is, taking something that someone else attributes to 'magic,' and dismissing it as impossible BECAUSE it is attributed to magic, is probably a stupid thing to do. It might not have been caused by 'supernatural' means. it just may have been caused by 'mysterious' (meaning, we don't know...) means, that we might eventually figure out.

But that is not the case with what we do with your imaginary God.



....but I'll bet you SOMEONE figures out how to make a flying device (broom?) that people can play Quiditch on, using methods and laws of physics that we can understand. Just wait.
You really don't even realize that you are making my argument against your earlier comments. No one considers flying on broomsticks to be supernatural events because no one has ever seen anyone playing Quiditch. It's laughable that you don't understand the difference.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
My advice, get off this train you're on, because your theories are incorrect.

Unless you realize that, and are just trying to have fun. [I do that too. Jolly people, you and me.
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
You weren't talking about the universe as being "something dynamic and always in flux". You were referring to "the realization that magic is energy flow".

I was speaking poetically.

I can be in awe of the "universe in all its dynamic glory". I can do this with no need for a sense of anything mystical. In fact, mysticism takes away from the awesomeness of nature.

Consider:
The aurora borealis is the result of atoms rushing around at exceedingly high speeds interacting with the earth's magnetic field. Awesome.

The aurora borealis is the result of GodDidIt. Yawn.

Mysticism doesn't require supernatural elements. Ultimately, it refers to a specific emotional response to sensory information. It is an individual's sensual relationship to the Universe.

The first time I saw the Aurora, I was inspired and awestruck with the majesty of the waves of blue and pink streaking the night sky.

I was perfectly aware that it was the result of atoms in the Earth's magnetic field, but that does not change the chills up my spine, the rush of endorphins, or the associations with beauty and wonder that filled my reality.

Magical indeed!
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
Aha! We will base our scientific knowledge on the definition used in "one dictionary"

Oh wait. Here are some more...

: the use of means (such as charms or spells) believed to have supernatural power over natural forces
b: magic rites or incantations
2a: an extraordinary power or influence seemingly from a supernatural source

magic noun (IMAGINARY POWER)
esp. in stories for children) the use of special powers to make things happen that would usually be impossible:

I don't see any "ors" in them. So, maybe dictionaries, while very useful, are not the be-all, end-all for scientific knowledge.

No, but then I'm not using one for that.

I am simply pointing out that deciding something is attributable to 'magic,' and therefore dismissing it as impossible BECAUSE some might think it caused by 'magic,' might be short sighted. The thing is, most of the stuff that was attributed to magic in the past is stuff that we can duplicate now with technology, and perhaps the stuff attributed to 'magic' now might be duplicated in the future, when we understand the very natural physical processes that allow them.

It is the automatic dismissal of anything that HAS BEEN attributed to magic, BECAUSE it was attributed to magic, that is problematic.

As I said: I have walked upon water. A virgin can get pregnant and give birth. Leprosy can be cured. You know....now that we know how to do that stuff.
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
Complete with a video of the Holy Ghost actually doing the impregnating of the young virgin? Cool!

Please send the URL. Is it on available on PornHub?

There is no mention of how the Holy Ghost did that.

But WE can do that. Why do you insist that it be done precisely the way you want it to be done?
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
It doesn't matter how it "appeared" to the ignorant people. It was not a supernatural event. Perception does not change reality.

That was MY point. They called something magic that was not. It was real. That they called it magic doesn't make it impossible.


Indeed he would have been wrong. But he saw the packages actually being dropped, so his use of the phrase "supernatural nonsense" must have been caused by something else entirely. Perhaps one of the cartons hit him in the head causing his denial. I have not seen your God deliver anything.

He might have...and have attributed that stuff to something else. Just as you might have seen 'God deliver,' but your own confirmation bias makes you attribute that to something else. Indeed, I'll bet that if there is any possibility that something COULD have been caused by 'something else,' you will claim that it could not, then, have been God.

As for me, I don't think that God does all that much micromanaging. I think that I have seen miracles, but they might not have been. I'm happy either way.


You really don't even realize that you are making my argument against your earlier comments. No one considers flying on broomsticks to be supernatural events because no one has ever seen anyone playing Quiditch. It's laughable that you don't understand the difference.

I understand the difference just fine.

And I find it laughable that you go straight for the insults when you can't make a cogent argument.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
As I said: I have walked upon water. A virgin can get pregnant and give birth. Leprosy can be cured. You know....now that we know how to do that stuff.

You have walked on water with the aid of some device or contraption or cold weather.
Jesus just used his bare feet when he allegedly walked on liquid water.
Apples and Oranges.

Virgins can get pregnant through the use of artificial insemination.
Mary allegedly got impregnated by a 1/3 god holy ghost.
Apples and Oranges.

Lepers can be cured with the use of antibiotics.
Jesus allegedly cured 10 people of leprosy by saying “Go, show yourselves to the priests.”
Apples and Oranges.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
There is no mention of how the Holy Ghost did that.

But WE can do that. Why do you insist that it be done precisely the way you want it to be done?

It has nothing to do with the way I want it done. It just needs to be done the same way as it was allegedly done originally. Otherwise, it's just apples and oranges.

You can't say an orange tree produces knowledge of good and evil.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
That was MY point. They called something magic that was not. It was real. That they called it magic doesn't make it impossible.

No. Actually your point was...
The point is, that if any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic, that is, you CAN'T TELL THEM APART, then (whisper this) They are the same thing.

You said they are one and the same. I have been arguing all along that just because some people believe something is supernatural, that does not make it supernatural and the same as something natural.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
I understand the difference just fine.
I think you need to review the contents of our conversation. You are the one who has changed horses midstream.
And I find it laughable that you go straight for the insults when you can't make a cogent argument.
When you don't understand something and can't keep track of your own line of reasoning you are insulting yourself.
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
You have walked on water with the aid of some device or contraption or cold weather.

Of course.


Jesus just used his bare feet when he allegedly walked on liquid water.
Apples and Oranges.

No. Jesus, IMO of course, used natural laws HE knew about that we didn't, so that it looked to everybody as if He were doing something magical. I don't think HE thought 'magic' when He was doing stuff. He knew how, so He did it.

Magic is in the perception of the thing, not the reality of it. Just like those cargo cults you mentioned. Those cargo planes were very real. They dropped very real supplies. It wasn't the fault of the pilots that the folks below didn't understand what was happening, and reacted the way they did.

Virgins can get pregnant through the use of artificial insemination.
Mary allegedly got impregnated by a 1/3 god holy ghost.
Apples and Oranges.

Nope. Same thing, basically. There is no technical manual on HOW Mary got pregnant, just by Whom.

Lepers can be cured with the use of antibiotics.
Jesus allegedly cured 10 people of leprosy by saying “Go, show yourselves to the priests.”
Apples and Oranges.

Nope. Same thing...Oh, and 'showing themselves to the priests' didn't cure them. HE did.

Here's a very real thing: about a month ago I spent a week in Los Angeles, getting very invisible radiation to my head. They made a fancy mask to tie my head to a table, and every day, for about five minutes, I lay there while someone aimed very invisible and silent 'something' at the tumor there. I felt nothing, heard nothing. About two weeks later I lost the hair where that invisible and silent whatever hit my scalp, and four weeks later the tumor is almost gone. (Don't panic, radiation is to my multiple myeloma as water was to the Wicked Witch of the West...'helllp, I'm mellting!) I'm fine, and will be fine.

The point is, if I didn't KNOW what was going on, and what radiation is and does, it might as well have been some fancy religious ceremony; lie on the table all tied down for a few minutes each day while people dressed in weird clothing mutter to one another and make esoteric gestures at one another. Magic.

So...what natural laws did Jesus use? Just because YOU think it was "magic,' because YOU can't repeat the results doesn't mean that those things did not happen, that they were not caused by something real, and that eventually we may be able to understand how it was done, and replicate it.

In my view, if it is called 'magic,' and it WORKS, then it wasn't magic. It was just something we don't know how to do ourselves yet.

If it is called 'magic' and it does NOT work (Ouija boards, Taro cards, Astrology, stuff like that...) that is quite another topic.

But walking on water? We can do that. Perhaps not as elegantly as Jesus did, but we can do that.
impregnating virgins? We can do that. Perhaps not as ceremoniously as the Holy Ghost did, but we can do that.
Cure lepers? We can do that. Perhaps not as fast, and knowing HOW might take a lot of the wonder out of it, but we can do that.

Cure cancer? Well, we are working on that and we do it with means that can look, to someone who doesn't know what's happening, JUST like the sort of magic that Jesus did.
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
It has nothing to do with the way I want it done. It just needs to be done the same way as it was allegedly done originally. Otherwise, it's just apples and oranges.

You can't say an orange tree produces knowledge of good and evil.

But we don't KNOW how it was done originally, do we? All we know is WHO did it, not how...and you are moving the goalposts. How can you insist that it be done precisely the way it was 'allegedly done originally,' when you have no clue about the process in the first place?

....and I can't say an apple tree produced the knowledge of good and evil, either. The type of fruit isn't mentioned. ;)

Of course, now you have to figure out which creation story (there are two, after all) you are going to refer to here, and you need to know that my own beliefs (official and everything) are that they are metaphorical.
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
No. Actually your point was...

You said they are one and the same. I have been arguing all along that just because some people believe something is supernatural, that does not make it supernatural and the same as something natural.

They are the same thing to the observer...until they come to understand the technology. The POINT is that technology is achievable.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Jesus, IMO of course, used natural laws HE knew about that we didn't, so that it looked to everybody as if He were doing something magical. I don't think HE thought 'magic' when He was doing stuff. He knew how, so He did it.


What "everybody" are you referring to? Did any of them write about the incident? If a bunch of people saw a man walking on water, wouldn't they all have written about it? Especially Peter who did a little water walking himself.

25And in the fourth watch of the night He came to them, walking on the sea. 26When the disciples saw Him walking on the sea, they were terrified, and said, “It is a ghost!” And they cried out in fear. 27But immediately Jesus spoke to them, saying, “Take courage, it is I; do not be afraid.”

28Peter said to Him, “Lord, if it is You, command me to come to You on the water.” 29And He said, “Come!” And Peter got out of the boat, and walked on the water and came toward Jesus. 30But seeing the wind, he became frightened, and beginning to sink, he cried out, “Lord, save me!” 31Immediately Jesus stretched out His hand and took hold of him, and said to him, “You of little faith, why did you doubt?” 32When they got into the boat, the wind stopped. 33And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, “You are certainly God’s Son!”
You are drifting off the topic, however.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
dianaiad said:
Jesus, IMO of course, used natural laws HE knew about that we didn't, so that it looked to everybody as if He were doing something magical. I don't think HE thought 'magic' when He was doing stuff. He knew how, so He did it.
I don't care how technically insightful he was, without the actual technology he could do nothing -- unless he was some sort of magical superhero, that is.

Without modern medical equipment the most brilliant physician in the world is pretty much powerless.
You can know electronics, quantum mechanics and relativity backwards and forwards, but without a technological base you're not going to send a selfie to grandma.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
No. Jesus, IMO of course, used natural laws HE knew about that we didn't, so that it looked to everybody as if He were doing something magical. I don't think HE thought 'magic' when He was doing stuff. He knew how, so He did it.

Magic is in the perception of the thing, not the reality of it. Just like those cargo cults you mentioned. Those cargo planes were very real. They dropped very real supplies. It wasn't the fault of the pilots that the folks below didn't understand what was happening, and reacted the way they did.

Nope. Same thing, basically. There is no technical manual on HOW Mary got pregnant, just by Whom.

Nope. Same thing...Oh, and 'showing themselves to the priests' didn't cure them. HE did.

The problem with your argument is that you base your examples on things that never happened. My examples are based on factual reality.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
So...what natural laws did Jesus use? Just because YOU think it was "magic,' because YOU can't repeat the results doesn't mean that those things did not happen, that they were not caused by something real, and that eventually we may be able to understand how it was done, and replicate it.
You are asking what natural laws did an imaginary entity use? It's really silly to even contemplate that.

Suppose you try to use some example from the real world.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
But we don't KNOW how it was done originally, do we? All we know is WHO did it, not how...and you are moving the goalposts.
So let's put the goalposts back on real ground, not the make-believe ground of a man-made religious vision. Your scenarios are no different than any scenarios from Dungeons and Dragons (except they aren't as good).
-scholars-may-have-actually-found-proof-that-moses-parted-the-red-sea--u1

d-and-d-magic.jpg
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
The problem with your argument is that you base your examples on things that never happened. My examples are based on factual reality.

The cargo cults didn't happen?

As to the biblical miracles,,, how do you know they didn't happen? I mean, really. Why don't you believe that they happened?

After all, WE CAN DO THEM.
 
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