• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Empirical Evidence and Arguments for God(s)

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
**DEFINITION OF EVIDENCE:** the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.

**DEFINITION OF VALID ARGUMENT:** validity is the principle that if all the premises are true, the conclusion must also be true. Also known as formal validity and valid argument

CONSCIOUSNESS AS AN ONTOLOGICAL PRIMITIVE: THE EXISTENCE OF GOD(S)

- Consciousness is empirically proven to be ontologically distinct from matter. This can be shown by comparing the properties of both, such as minds being nonspacial and matter taking up space, the contents of mind being subjective and those of matter objective, the contents of mind private to the individual and those of matter accessible to anyone, the contents of mind being about things and the contents of matter lacking aboutness, and these are only a few examples. Anyone can test this at any time. For instance, the volume in a room your body takes up will be the same if you're actively consciously thinking or dead, there's no difference. Or that no matter who you love the most, they cannot actually access those feelings. [1]

- Consciousness is an absolute certainty, it is the one thing we know directly and can be sure exists. The existence of the Self and Consciousness is an axiomatic fact, it must be true and cannot even be logically argued against without violating that same logic. Anything that is Not-Consciousness in known through Consciousness, including the material world, body, and brain. Anything you ever have or will know about matter relies on consciousness, and while consciousness cannot have its existence doubted [2-3], we can EASILY doubt matter (such as brain in a vat, solipsism, idealism, philosophical skepticism, etc.) [4-7]. To reduce what we know is axiomatically true and we know with direct certainty, into something we can doubt and never directly or certainly know, is height of unreasonable.

- Consciousness, even in less advanced beings like animals, comes with very specific traits. This includes being aware of the self and others to some extent, having needs and desires, seeking either social situations or isolation actively, emotions, and so forth.

- CONCLUSION: since consciousness axiomatically exists, cannot be doubted, and is proven ontologically distinct from matter, consciousness must be a separate “substance” or “thing”, an ontological primitive. We know this primitive because we have direct access to it, so we can know about the nature of consciousness. An ontological primitive – something immaterial and eternal – which desires, has emotions, experiences, is self-aware, etc. is the best possible definition for a God. Therefore at least one God exists.

THE NATURE/RISE OF CONSCIOUSNESS: THE INTERFERENCE FROM GOD(S)

- Not only are the properties of consciousness mutually exclusive from those of matter, but what we see consciousness is capable of, at least in humans, does not line up with the deterministic, linearly moving, material universe. For instance the mind of humans can question, manipulate, and even go against this linear, deterministic matter. Questioning is proven in this very writing, we are stepping outside of the system and looking in to figure out how it works, something which, to our knowledge, no other life does. If it does they certainly and evidently don’t to the same extent. We can manipulate nature such as the creation of complex chemical medications, the harnessing of electricity itself, the building of mega-structures that stand the tests of time [8-9], not to mention devices such as what you’re reading this on which would never have grown in a consciousness-less nature. Contradiction of this material nature is scientifically proven in things such as Self-Regulation, Cognitive Therapy, and Placebos without Deception [10-12]. All of these prove that we can willfully recognize our deterministic patterns and freely choose to act differently.

- The rise of the higher consciousness possessed by humans is suspicious even if we ignore that this consciousness came to be able to contradict nature, and doesn’t fit with what we know about biological evolution. This is specifically in the Great Leap Forward of the Upper Paleolithic Revolution, a scientifically proven event well known in anthropology. Mankind went from “just another animal” to an abstractly questioning and thinking being. Art arose, religion, language, math, cultures, agriculture, and society and civilization themselves. This has never occurred to the same extent in another species, not even close. Further, there was no genetic change that occurred at this time, and biologically modern humans had already existed for over 100,000 years when the UPR happened![13-15]

- CONCLUSION: The nature of consciousness the UPR birthed, along with the scientifically evidenced fact that it occurred abruptly and without biological evolution, suggest the interference of something outside of nature, i.e. a God.

TELEOLOGY OF MIND AND BODY: THE PLAN OF GOD(S)

- There is a Telos to the mind which was proven by psychological scientist Abraham Maslow in his Hierarchy of Needs. This shows the best path for human beings to follow in order to reach their ideal life, something that applies across times in cultures. Maslow showed that there is a “proper” hierarchy to human priorities, and a “proper” end-goal of Self-Actualization whatever that may before you. [16]

- There is a Telos to the body which was proven by the Yale School of Medicine, especially through the works of Dr. Harold Burr. It shows that there are external fields creating and controlling, not simply produced by, the physical forms of all life. Anything from trees to amphibians to human beings. Readings of these “Life Fields” can predict cancer, ovulation, birth defects, and much more. Unfortunately Dr. Burr believed this to be evidence of an intelligent plan (it is…), so it has been largely swept under the rug in favor of (much more profitable!) materialism. [17-19]

- CONCLUSION: There being a clear proper path for both all matter and consciousness shows that there is a Telos, or purpose, to human life and that we do not exist or evolve randomly.

PERSONAL EXPERIENCE: DIRECT EXPERIENCES OF GOD(S)

- Every single culture has experienced Gods. Hundreds of millions of people throughout human history and across cultures have experienced Gods, and these experiences have extremely similar characteristics. In fact these are so clear the can be categorized into 3 specific types of experiences (see Philosophy of Religion, and Introduction, by atheism William Rowe for example) [20]. Yes, the pantheons experienced seem to differ, but this is exactly what we would expect from cultures dependent on different geography, weather, economy, class system, and so forth. To say this shows the experiences are invalid would be like saying the stars don’t exist because cultures came up with different constellations.

- We also don’t inherently reject any human experience as delusion off the bat. We accept people experience pain, love, fear, happiness, depression, etc., despite never having actual access to their experiences. Yet when it comes to religious experiences many non-believers fall back on SPECIAL PLEADING, which is to judge this one type of experience differently from the rest. [21]

- CONCLUSION: since we would expect gods to be interpreted differently by cultures, and without reasons to reject religious experiences (which would have to be on an individual basis, such as pain), all we have is something all cultures have consistent experienced across time, which parsimony would suggest means they actually experienced them.

POLYTHEISM: MORE THAN ONE GOD

- There are experiences of all different gods throughout time, and so if one accepts experience (you have to without reasons specific to that individual case, such as intoxication or mental illness) they cannot say THEIR god is valid while others are not without SPECIAL PLEADING.

- Monotheistic gods have been logically defeated, such as by the problem of evil, lack of miracles, lack of answered prayers, etc.

- CONCLUSION: If you believe ANY gods exist, it is more reasonable to believe MANY do.

SOME References

1- Mind/Body Dualism, SEP
Dualism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

2- About of Consciousness Axiom of Consciousness - Objectivism Wiki

3- Ontological Argument for Idealism by Bernardo Kastrup

4 to 7- Skepticism and Content Externalism Skepticism and Content Externalism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

8- Making Medicines
Making medicines

9- Powering a Generation
Powering A Generation: Generating Electricity

10- How to Practice Self Regulation
How to Develop and Use Self-Regulation in Your Life

11- Cognitive Appraisal
Cognitive Appraisal

12- Placebos Without Deception
Placebos without Deception: A Randomized Controlled Trial in Irritable Bowel Syndrome

13- Framework of the UPR
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0392192107076869

14- Modern Humans Take the World
Was the Upper Paleolithic the Height of Artistic Brilliance?

15- UP Technology, Art, Culture
Paleolithic technology, culture, and art

16- Hierarchy of Needs
https://www.simplypsychology.org/maslow.html

17- The Electrical Patterns of Life
The Electrical Patterns of Life; The Work of Dr. Harold S. Burr | Men & Women of Medicine | World Research Foundation

18- Harold Burr's Biofields
http://www.energymed.org/hbank/handouts/harold_burr_biofields.htm

19- Electromagnetics of Life (PDF)
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...Vaw0xWf76krbzIG2DWHWuOP4q&cshid=1569537305106

20- Phi of Religion https://www.amazon.com/Philosophy-Religion-Introduction-William-Rowe/dp/0495007250

21- Special Pleading
https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/163/Special-Pleading
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I do not read gibberish, but I can tell that you started with an error. Your title states "Empirical evidence and arguments for God". I can assure you that no one seems to be able to find any empirical evidence for a god:

"Empirical evidence is the information received by means of the senses, particularly by observation and documentation of patterns and behavior through experimentation.["

Empirical evidence - Wikipedia

If it is not repeatable then you can pretty much bet it is not empirical.
 

Darkforbid

Well-Known Member
Rubbish, but yes, the mind is energy flowing around matter just like a computer is energy flowing around hardware
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
The OP is way too long and has so much "information" to even give an answer the creator of the OP will be satisfied off, but there is a lot of error in it too.
The part about Consciousness is incorrect in so many ways.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
CONSCIOUSNESS AS AN ONTOLOGICAL PRIMITIVE: THE EXISTENCE OF GOD(S)

- Consciousness is empirically proven to be ontologically distinct from matter. This can be shown by comparing the properties of both, such as minds being nonspacial and matter taking up space, the contents of mind being subjective and those of matter objective, the contents of mind private to the individual and those of matter accessible to anyone, the contents of mind being about things and the contents of matter lacking aboutness, and these are only a few examples. Anyone can test this at any time. For instance, the volume in a room your body takes up will be the same if you're actively consciously thinking or dead, there's no difference. Or that no matter who you love the most, they cannot actually access those feelings. [1]

- Consciousness is an absolute certainty, it is the one thing we know directly and can be sure exists. The existence of the Self and Consciousness is an axiomatic fact, it must be true and cannot even be logically argued against without violating that same logic. Anything that is Not-Consciousness in known through Consciousness, including the material world, body, and brain. Anything you ever have or will know about matter relies on consciousness, and while consciousness cannot have its existence doubted [2-3], we can EASILY doubt matter (such as brain in a vat, solipsism, idealism, philosophical skepticism, etc.) [4-7]. To reduce what we know is axiomatically true and we know with direct certainty, into something we can doubt and never directly or certainly know, is height of unreasonable.

- Consciousness, even in less advanced beings like animals, comes with very specific traits. This includes being aware of the self and others to some extent, having needs and desires, seeking either social situations or isolation actively, emotions, and so forth.

- CONCLUSION: since consciousness axiomatically exists, cannot be doubted, and is proven ontologically distinct from matter, consciousness must be a separate “substance” or “thing”, an ontological primitive. We know this primitive because we have direct access to it, so we can know about the nature of consciousness. An ontological primitive – something immaterial and eternal – which desires, has emotions, experiences, is self-aware, etc. is the best possible definition for a God. Therefore at least one God exists.

THE NATURE/RISE OF CONSCIOUSNESS: THE INTERFERENCE FROM GOD(S)

- Not only are the properties of consciousness mutually exclusive from those of matter, but what we see consciousness is capable of, at least in humans, does not line up with the deterministic, linearly moving, material universe. For instance the mind of humans can question, manipulate, and even go against this linear, deterministic matter. Questioning is proven in this very writing, we are stepping outside of the system and looking in to figure out how it works, something which, to our knowledge, no other life does. If it does they certainly and evidently don’t to the same extent. We can manipulate nature such as the creation of complex chemical medications, the harnessing of electricity itself, the building of mega-structures that stand the tests of time [8-9], not to mention devices such as what you’re reading this on which would never have grown in a consciousness-less nature. Contradiction of this material nature is scientifically proven in things such as Self-Regulation, Cognitive Therapy, and Placebos without Deception [10-12]. All of these prove that we can willfully recognize our deterministic patterns and freely choose to act differently.

- The rise of the higher consciousness possessed by humans is suspicious even if we ignore that this consciousness came to be able to contradict nature, and doesn’t fit with what we know about biological evolution. This is specifically in the Great Leap Forward of the Upper Paleolithic Revolution, a scientifically proven event well known in anthropology. Mankind went from “just another animal” to an abstractly questioning and thinking being. Art arose, religion, language, math, cultures, agriculture, and society and civilization themselves. This has never occurred to the same extent in another species, not even close. Further, there was no genetic change that occurred at this time, and biologically modern humans had already existed for over 100,000 years when the UPR happened![13-15]

- CONCLUSION: The nature of consciousness the UPR birthed, along with the scientifically evidenced fact that it occurred abruptly and without biological evolution, suggest the interference of something outside of nature, i.e. a God.
Consciousness is not only one "thing" it has many aspects and it is not "self"
You can not point at self and say I am consciousness. Because where is self? The body is not self it is only a container of your experiences as a conscious being, The self or "I" is only the ego saying that this must be me, but if you look deeply into the body with a microscope you will experience that our body is not a solid mass of flesh,it has a lot of empty space within it, just like a Universe has.

Consciousness is as I said many layers, it includes the emotions, space awareness, it recognizes the feeling of pain, happiness but consciousness is not a static entity and it is not a self, consciousness always moves just like a wave.
Consciousness exists without a physical body (our consciousness is not even located within the body, it is within another dimension, linked to the existence we see as human realm)

In meditation, you realize there is something called subconsciousness and it is a part of the spiritual being, it is a part of the being we experience as a human being, but as long we are in human form we can not control our subconsciousness. it has its own "mind" But when we meditate we can "connect" with our subconsciousness and be able to go out of the physical realm. We are still conscious beings but the focus is changed. Then we understand there is nothing we can say is a self, we are a part of everything always.

Do you have questions, please be free to ask:)
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
- CONCLUSION: since consciousness axiomatically exists, cannot be doubted, and is proven ontologically distinct from matter, consciousness must be a separate “substance” or “thing”, an ontological primitive. We know this primitive because we have direct access to it, so we can know about the nature of consciousness. An ontological primitive – something immaterial and eternal – which desires, has emotions, experiences, is self-aware, etc. is the best possible definition for a God. Therefore at least one God exists.
I don't see how this conclusion natural follows from what you write?

"consciousness must be a separate “substance” or “thing”, an ontological primitive."
Without a functional living brain there would be no consciousness, so you might say that its something else, but in the end its a byproduct of the brain.

"An ontological primitive – something immaterial and eternal"
Therefore consciousness must be something stored in the material brain and not something that fly around in the air and also not something which is eternal, as it would go away as the brain dies.

"Therefore at least one God exists."
Therefore it is possible for the brain to construct the concept of a God, together with concepts of all sorts of other things. If anything, it would be evidence for Gods being such constructs. However most religious people are not applying human biological features to Gods, like them having a brain etc. but in some cases, merely imagine them as having human form, but without all the weaknesses that we humans have. Rather these are eternal and may be beyond our comprehension and therefore, they usually approach this from the opposite direction. That Gods have "planted" or made it possible for humans to know about them, and that they created us and not the other way around.

- CONCLUSION: The nature of consciousness the UPR birthed, along with the scientifically evidenced fact that it occurred abruptly and without biological evolution, suggest the interference of something outside of nature, i.e. a God.
I don't see how this remotely suggest that.

The rise of the higher consciousness possessed by humans is suspicious even if we ignore that this consciousness came to be able to contradict nature, and doesn’t fit with what we know about biological evolution. This is specifically in the Great Leap Forward of the Upper Paleolithic Revolution, a scientifically proven event well known in anthropology.

It fits perfectly with biological evolution, that other animals are capable of organizing themselves into communities and make use of simple tools to achieve certain goals. These might not be seen as sophisticated as how we use tools, but then again humans have more developed brains, which is why our offspring are completely defenseless and incapable of even the most basic abilities required for survival for a long period of time. While other animals offspring rapidly learns the ability to walk, climb etc. than we do. The Upper Paleolithic revolution simply shows how human developed our skills and abilities to share knowledge and do more advance thinking compared to other animals. This era is still a period estimated to be between 50000 to 10000 years ago, so one should be careful to not look at this as being a rapid development. Also looking at the era of Paleolithic: also called the Old Stone Age, is a period in human prehistory distinguished by the original development of stone tools that covers c. 99% of human technological prehistory.[1] It extends from the earliest known use of stone tools by hominins c. 3.3 million years ago, to the end of the Pleistocene c. 11,650 cal BP.

So this period of which we and our ancestors learned to use tools is rather long. Now compare that to how much humans have developed in just the last 50 years? Wouldn't one be more inclined to think that God would be behind especially those 50 years, rather than a period of 3.3 million years, with much slower progress compared to today? I assume that logic is not really going to fly, since we know how this development occurred. Now lets track this back further, to lets say 2000 years ago, it still make rather good sense in regards to how human society and knowledge have developed. So if we go back even further and look at the tools that we find and how these were made from bones, stones etc. That this also seems to fit rather well with what we would expect from how knowledge develop over time.

 

PureX

Veteran Member
The realm of existence that we call "consciousness" is both transcendent and metaphysical. In this I agree with the OP. However, the link from this to "God" remains unverified. Which is why it remains a matter of faith among we humans, rather than fact.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.

**DEFINITION OF VALID ARGUMENT:** validity is the principle that if all the premises are true, the conclusion must also be true. Also known as formal validity and valid argument

See highlighted text

Definition of...

True : in accordance with fact or reality.

Valid : having a sound basis in logic or fact

 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
*
- Consciousness is empirically proven to be ontologically distinct from matter.

Errrr..... no.
If anything, all the empirical data is showing the exact opposite: that consciousness is an emergent property of a rather specific arrangement of matter. Ie, a brain.

It is not something that exists "distinct" from matter. Ever seen a "conscisousness" that existed without a physical brain? I sure haven't.

- Consciousness is an absolute certainty, it is the one thing we know directly and can be sure exists.

Sounds like a rather meaningless tautology and just another (although rather weird) way to express "I think, therefor I am".


- CONCLUSION: since consciousness axiomatically exists, cannot be doubted, and is proven ontologically distinct from matter, consciousness must be a separate “substance” or “thing”, an ontological primitive.
Your main premise ("distinct from matter") flies in the face of all evidence and is thus far from "proven". Literally all evidence supports the exact opposite statement of your premise.

Therefor, your argument is invalid.

An ontological primitive – something immaterial and eternal – which desires, has emotions, experiences, is self-aware, etc. is the best possible definition for a God.

Why? Becase you say so?

Therefore at least one God exists.

EVEN if I would give you your previous argument, then still this conclusion doesn't follow. At all.
You're just attempting to "define" god into existance, but just inventing a definition, declaring it true and then making an irrational leap from an argument about consiousness (as it manifests in biological organisms btw, not "spirits" or what have you) to a mere declaration that a god exists.


As deductive argumentation, this is about as invalid as it gets.




After these first few sciency-sounding paragraphes that were nonetheless filled with fallacy upon fallacy... I've lost interest to continue.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Errrr..... no.
If anything, all the empirical data is showing the exact opposite: that consciousness is an emergent property of a rather specific arrangement of matter. Ie, a brain.
Even to be recognized as "emergent" means it has already been recognized and being "distinct from" that which it is emerging.
It is not something that exists "distinct" from matter. Ever seen a "conscisousness" that existed without a physical brain? I sure haven't.
There is matter, and there is the recognized idea of matter. These are distinctly different phenomena. Transcendence does not require that the emergent result be completely free and autonomous from the source. It only requires that it achieve possibilities that were not extant in the source. And if you think otherwise, please explain how so.
Your main premise ("distinct from matter") flies in the face of all evidence and is thus far from "proven". Literally all evidence supports the exact opposite statement of your premise.
You are blinding yourself with the biased requirement of total autonomy. Please explain why you think total autonomy is needed to distinguish between 'this' and 'that'.

My right hand is clearly distinguishable from my left, and yet neither of them are totally autonomous from the other. And neither are autonomous from the rest of my body.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Even to be recognized as "emergent" means it has already been recognized and being "distinct from" that which it is emerging.
There is matter, and there is the recognized idea of matter. These are distinctly different phenomena. Transcendence does not require that the emergent result be completely free and autonomous from the source. It only requires that it achieve possibilities that were not extant in the source. And if you think otherwise, please explain how so.
You are blinding yourself with the biased requirement of total autonomy. Please explain why you think total autonomy is needed to distinguish between 'this' and 'that'.

My right hand is clearly distinguishable from my left, and yet neither of them are totally autonomous from the other. And neither are autonomous from the rest of my body.

The total autonomy is a requirement to label something, anything, as a substance. Otherwise it is labeled as "merely" a property.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
The total autonomy is a requirement to label something, anything, as a substance. Otherwise it is labeled as "merely" a property.
Stating it doesn't make it so. None of the elements of the periodic table are totally autonomous, as they all share the same atomic sources, and yet they are recognized as unique, individual substances. Nothing in existence is totally autonomous from anything else in existence. Everything that exists, exists because everything else exists. Total autonomy is an intellectual delusion.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Stating it doesn't make it so. None of the elements of the periodic table are totally autonomous, as they all share the same atomic sources, and yet they are recognized as unique, individual substances. Nothing in existence is totally autonomous from anything else in existence. Everything that exists, exists because everything else exists. Total autonomy is an intellectual delusion.

The word 'substance' has a quite peculiar meaning in philosophy.

"The philosophical term ‘substance’ corresponds to the Greek ousia, which means ‘being’, transmitted via the Latin substantia, which means ‘something that stands under or grounds things’. According to the generic sense, therefore, the substances in a given philosophical system are those things which, according to that system, are the foundational or fundamental entities of reality." - Substance (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

Edit: Just to make myself clearer. None of the elements of the periodic table are substances.
 
Last edited:

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Even to be recognized as "emergent" means it has already been recognized and being "distinct from" that which it is emerging.

No. "Distinct" implies that it can exist seperately and independently from one another.
This is not true at all. If you remove or shut down the brain, consciousness disappears.
Just like if you pull the plug of the TV, there will no longer be an image.

There is matter, and there is the recognized idea of matter. These are distinctly different phenomena.

What do you mean by "the recognized idea of matter"? I have no idea what you are talking about.
When I speak about "matter", I mean a rather specific thing. Atoms and molecules and collections thereof.

No idea what you are talking about....

Transcendence does not require that the emergent result be completely free and autonomous from the source.

Then it's not distinct.

It only requires that it achieve possibilities that were not extant in the source. And if you think otherwise, please explain how so.

No idea what you mean.
Seems to be that producing conscousness is fully within the capability of physical brains.

You are blinding yourself with the biased requirement of total autonomy. Please explain why you think total autonomy is needed to distinguish between 'this' and 'that'.

Because the word "distinct" was used. It's not distinct.

My right hand is clearly distinguishable from my left, and yet neither of them are totally autonomous from the other. And neither are autonomous from the rest of my body.

That's a false analogy, imo.
Consciousness is not a body part. It's a label for an abstract concept that we experience as being something, but which is really just a manifestation of brain chemistry.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
The word 'substance' has a quite peculiar meaning in philosophy.

"The philosophical term ‘substance’ corresponds to the Greek ousia, which means ‘being’, transmitted via the Latin substantia, which means ‘something that stands under or grounds things’. According to the generic sense, therefore, the substances in a given philosophical system are those things which, according to that system, are the foundational or fundamental entities of reality." - Substance (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

Edit: Just to make myself clearer. None of the elements of the periodic table are substances.
You're avoiding the point. Which is that the autonomy you are demanding does not exist. EVERYTHING is an "emergent property". And EVERYTHING is dependent upon the mystery from which it has emerged. The key to it's differentiation is not it's autonomy, but the unique possibilities that result. Possibilities that did not exist within the source from which it emerged.

Matter emerges from energy, creating a whole realm of possibilities that energy, by itself, could not produce. Life emerges from matter and energy, embodying possibilities that did not exist within the matter and energy, alone. Consciousness emerges from life, manifesting possibilities that do not exist as mere 'life'. Each emergence transcends the realm of possibilities that existed within the source from which it emerged. And yet in no instance do these examples of transcendent emergence become "totally autonomous" from their source.They are in fact new realms of possibility, not new (independent) realms of existence.

We do not know the ultimate source from which existence has emerged. We do not know the limits of the possibilities that have emerged from it.

In many ways, and in most cultures, the term "God" refers to this conjoined mystery.
 
Last edited:

PureX

Veteran Member
No. "Distinct" implies that it can exist seperately and independently from one another.
That is your chosen bias. But it is not born out by reality.
This is not true at all. If you remove or shut down the brain, consciousness disappears.
And if we "shut down" the energy of the big bang, everything disappears. Existence is interdependent. There is no real autonomy. The differentiation we humans recognize within existence is based on the unique possibilities being presented to us by the 'emergent phenomenon' within it. Not by it's presumed autonomy from it's source.
What do you mean by "the recognized idea of matter"? I have no idea what you are talking about.
When I speak about "matter", I mean a rather specific thing. Atoms and molecules and collections thereof.
I am referring to the cognition being generated in your brain. THAT is a transcendent, emergent, differentiated phenomenon that we call "consciousness". And it is by definition a "metaphysical" phenomenon.
No idea what you are talking about....
Nevertheless.
No idea what you mean.
Nevertheless.
Seems to be that producing consciousness is fully within the capability of physical brains.
And yet a whole new set of possibilities emerge from this particular phenomenon that do not otherwise exist within the brain, such as when the brain "dies". Which is why cognition is recognized as being something different from the physical brain within which it emerges.

A dead plant has the exact same physical makeup as a live one. And yet it's not alive, and so no longer presents the same existential possibilities as a live plant. This is why we recognize life as a different property from matter even though it emerges from and is dependent upon "dead" matter.
 
Top