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Is Hell Really Fair?

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
I assume then that we can dismiss as figurative other farfetched statements in the Bible such as Jonah living in the belly of the fish three days and three nights, or Jesus turning water into wine, or
1 Corinthians 15:4
"He was buried. He was raised from the dead on the third day, just as Scripture said he would be.
On the third day he arose from the dead."​
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How about all those sinners who never heard of god's solution, or who through no fault of their own were turned off by one of god's incompetent preachers?

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"Because of J.C.'s victory over evil and hell, God was able to restore the balance between good and evil, so that everybody everywhere on earth now has the freedom to choose God and goodness over hell and evil. And all who do so, according to Swedenborg, are saved.

This would not have been possible without the spiritual work Jesus Christ accomplished by his life, death, and resurrection. The Crucifixion was not salvation. Rather, it was only the final battle, by which Christ achieved final victory over the Devil, or hell.

Because of this view of salvation and atonement, from the perspective of Swedenborgian theology there is no need for non-Christians to believe that Jesus Christ died for our sins. The fact that Jesus did die for our sins is sufficient to secure our salvation, without the need for human belief in it."
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
That is based on your position that you are a finite being.

But if you are not... then your assumption is wrong.
I have ample evidence for the finitude of all of my being that is capable of being examined. You, of course, assume that there's some unexaminable bit that goes further, but for which you can provide no evidence at all. You know all this quite well...I don't believe it, and you can't show it.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I have ample evidence for the finitude of all of my being that is capable of being examined. You, of course, assume that there's some unexaminable bit that goes further, but for which you can provide no evidence at all. You know all this quite well...I don't believe it, and you can't show it.

We agree that what you see is finite.

Then again... science hasn't seen all that is capable of being examined and certainly today's current un-examinable things are un-examinable because they have no evidence (Like what happens in the black hole)

Certainly you can't show that God doesn't exist for your understanding of the universe is a small dot in a very large circle.

Your position that you are finite provides no evidence that your consciousness ceases with the death of your body - you just assume it with no evidence.

And, as I view it (you can view it differently) the order of the universe and the increased entropy that we see -- dictates something beyond of what you and I can see. (People can have a different viewpoint than mine but it doesn't negate my viewpoint.)
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
But even children know that consequences really ought to be proportional -- and infinite punishment for finite choices are manifestly NOT proportional.

One has to balance all the passages that say God is also the giver of forgiveness.

Who are we to say what is eternal. Who are we to say that God does not forgive us, it maybe we do not forgive ourselves, thus the lake of burning sulfer is our own selves.

Regards Tony
 

Phaedrus

Active Member
I view the theistic concept of an eternity in hell to be the reflection of a rather intolerant deity that does not comprehend the concept of unconditional love.
 

Prestor John

Well-Known Member
OR, hell could be eternal suffering in fire as noted in the Bible.
With all due respect, you seem to have some very major misunderstandings about the concept of Hell and the scriptures you have referenced.

I’m not trying to sound sanctimonious, but I do believe that I have a “particular set of skills” (name that movie!) that can help you gain a better understanding.

Most of which consist of actually reading the text and not quoting it out of context.

For example, you quoted Revelation 20:10 in a failed attempt to refute my claims that Hell is a temporary condition and that God's plan is fair.

If you had read the chapter in it's entirety you would see your error.

Revelation 20:10 reads (from the KJV),

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

First off, this verse is speaking about the fate of the devil - no one else. What makes you assume that this fate applies to everyone that "goes to" Hell?

Also, you quoted this while falsely assuming that this reference to the "lake of fire and brimstone" was a reference to Hell. The verses almost immediately following the one you quoted prove that notion false;

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." (Revelation 20:12-14) (Bold and italics added)

These verses claim that Hell shall "deliver up" the dead contained therein before they are to be judged. The condition of Hell has an end before we receive our Final Judgment. It is temporary.


Then the next verse claims that both death and hell shall be "cast into the lake of fire", proving not only that the condition of Hell is temporary (as I claimed) but also that the "lake of fire" mentioned in the verse you quoted (v.20) is NOT a reference to Hell.

According to the verse you quoted, after the Final Battle the devil will be cast into a "lake of fire" (which is not Hell) and he will be tormented there forever.

This "lake of fire", which is also referred to as the "bottomless pit" (v.3) and the "second death" (v.14) in this very same chapter is the "Outer Darkness" often referred to in the scriptures.

It is the space outside of God's Kingdom from where there is no return. It is not Hell. Hell is a temporary condition placed upon the unrepentant while they await the time of their resurrection before the Final Judgment.

Revelation 21:8 (the other verse you quoted out of context) also does not refer to Hell when it calls the place the "lake which burneth with fire and brimstone" and the "second death".

Both are references to Outer Darkness.

You tried to apply what the scriptures say about the fate of the devil (Lucifer/Satan) to everyone who will spend time in Hell. That is false doctrine.

You tried to equate the condition of Hell with this "lake of fire and brimstone" and the "second death" when other verses in the same chapters refute that idea.

I don't know what led you to these errors, but I hope you avoid spreading these false ideas in the future.

Now, take notice of these verses,

"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." (Matthew 12:31-32)

The devil (Lucifer/Satan) has committed this sin against the Holy Ghost, therefore he will not receive forgiveness and will eventually be cast into Outer Darkness.

Any mortal who commits this sin against the Holy Ghost will also be cast out. I wouldn't worry about committing this sin because it would first require you to have a perfect knowledge of God and His Christ before you could commit it.

Thank goodness for faith!

So, according to the Lord Jesus Christ, all other sins and blasphemies will eventually be forgiven. The sinner may need to spend some time in Hell, but they will be forgiven as long as they did not commit the sin against the Holy Ghost.
 

Prestor John

Well-Known Member
I view the theistic concept of an eternity in hell to be the reflection of a rather intolerant deity that does not comprehend the concept of unconditional love.
The idea of an eternity spent in Hell is not supported by the scriptures. It simply isn't true.
 

JJ50

Well-Known Member
The idea of burning in hell forever and ever even for the worst criminal ever is OTT. It is worse than evil when good, decent people are threatened with it by Christian extremists for mere unbelief.
 

Prestor John

Well-Known Member
The idea of burning in hell forever and ever even for the worst criminal ever is OTT. It is worse than evil when good, decent people are threatened with it by Christian extremists for mere unbelief.
The idea that someone goes to Hell simply for unbelief is untrue and not supported by the scriptures.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
I'm not sure Hell could ever be fair, but in any case, I have a note from my mum to excuse my bad behaviour (my genes and early environment) such that I will be going to the restroom for a lie down. :smilingimp:
 

KT Shamim

Ahmadiyya Muslim Community
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Aside from the claim that god knows what's best for us so we shouldn't question his decisions,

DO YOU THINK THAT SPENDING AN ETERNITY SUFFERING IN HELL FOR A MISTAKE MADE ON EARTH IS FAIR?

View attachment 33214

God does:

Matthew 25:46
"And these will go away into eternal punishment"
I don't

And your opinion?

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You are right eternal hell is very wrong concept. No Eternal Hell in Islam

[Qur'an 11:107-108] "As for those who will prove unfortunate, they shall be in the Fire, wherein there shall be for them sighing and sobbing,
Abiding therein so long as the heavens and the earth endure, excepting what thy Lord may will. Surely, thy Lord does bring about what He pleases."
[Qur'an 11:109] "But as for those who will prove fortunate, they shall be in Heaven; abiding therein so long as the heavens and the earth endure, excepting what thy Lord may will — a gift that shall not be cut off."

Concept of eternal hell is mostly a fault of scholars of Islam and people are right to question it.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
DO YOU THINK THAT SPENDING AN ETERNITY SUFFERING IN HELL FOR A MISTAKE MADE ON EARTH IS FAIR?
God does:
Matthew 25:46
"And these will go away into eternal punishment"
I don't
And your opinion?.
This is another of those nagging questions about the system of divine government.

(I often wonder why people of firm and clear democratic principles are so keen to belong to the autocracy of heaven, forego their right to any control of their ─ ahm ─ destiny? and blindly assumethey'll like what they find.)

I agree with you that eternal punishment even for starting WW2 is overdoing it. And 'proper punishment' drags in the question of mental capacity, mental health, economic opportunity, the effects of poverty, poor education, social environment and a truckload or two of those sorts of things. You'll be familiar with theories of what psychopaths have that 'normal' folk don't, and what they lack that 'normal' folk have; is that their fault? Some people are good at foregoing immediate satisfaction of their desires in return for greater longterm benefits. Some people are hopeless at it, both as little kids and as adults.

Whose fault is all that, if not God's?

If God is omnipotent, then everything, good or bad, is the direct consequence of God's will; and despite all the denials, there's no alternative possibility.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
.

Aside from the claim that god knows what's best for us so we shouldn't question his decisions,

DO YOU THINK THAT SPENDING AN ETERNITY SUFFERING IN HELL FOR A MISTAKE MADE ON EARTH IS FAIR?

View attachment 33214

God does:

Matthew 25:46
"And these will go away into eternal punishment"
I don't

And your opinion?

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Not fair. Not a sign of an omnipotent, omniscient deity either. He cant correct the psychological or physical causes the make an individual unworthy...
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
.

Aside from the claim that god knows what's best for us so we shouldn't question his decisions,

DO YOU THINK THAT SPENDING AN ETERNITY SUFFERING IN HELL FOR A MISTAKE MADE ON EARTH IS FAIR?

View attachment 33214

God does:

Matthew 25:46
"And these will go away into eternal punishment"
I don't

And your opinion?

.

Well, you can't be in Heaven or the new universe I inherit ranting about God's unfairness, so where will you be?
 
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