Is Hell a place where God punishes you or you punish yourself?

KenS said:

I understand... but certainly, wether one believes one thing or not, it is what it is.

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As far as useless statements go, sure. Could be as much true for 'despite what you believe, your ideas of what constitutes justice reflect a toxic worldview where people are judged without proper foundation for things that do not cause tangible harm, enacted because of an authority which does not exist let alone has moral or ethical virtue.'

ADigitalArtist said:

As far as useless statements go, sure. Could be as much true for 'despite what you believe, your ideas of what constitutes justice reflect a toxic worldview where people are judged without proper foundation for things that do not cause tangible harm, enacted because of an authority which does not exist let alone has moral or ethical virtue.'

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We certainly can agree to disagree.

In the interim, I will continue to love on people.

Jos said:

Which is it? All of sudden nowadays I've heard a toned down version of hell from theists where a just God doesn't deservedly send you there to punish you for your sins but you send yourself there by rejecting God's love apparently, and He isn't punishing you but you're punishing yourself. All of sudden it's toned down from version that takes responsibility away from God and places it in our hands, I guess as another way to get God off the hook for anything. So which is it: does God punish us or do we punish ourselves?

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Hell does not really exist so no one is sending or sending themselves.

I think the story of hell has softened. I think it has softened for only one good reason. People realize that anyone who would actually send someone to such a place would be a Monster. How could they have God being a Monster?

Hmmm? so what would religion do with hell? Since religion values blame, someone has to get the blame. How about those unbelievers or those who make a few bad choices. Ah yes, WE and they. They have always been the bad ones. They did it to themselves that way God can be innocent. What religious people do not realize is that if hell actually existed, God could no longer be innocent. God would still be a Monster.

AS I said, hell does not exist. If you think it does, maybe it's time to examine yourself and see why you want hell to exist.

That's why I am seeing.

Jos said:

Which is it? All of sudden nowadays I've heard a toned down version of hell from theists where a just God doesn't deservedly send you there to punish you for your sins but you send yourself there by rejecting God's love apparently, and He isn't punishing you but you're punishing yourself. All of sudden it's toned down from version that takes responsibility away from God and places it in our hands, I guess as another way to get God off the hook for anything. So which is it: does God punish us or do we punish ourselves?

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Those who choose to reject God reap the results of that choice, God will ensure they die, permanently. They cease to exist.

No eternal torture, no vengeful God, just eternal sleep.

Bird123 said:

Hell does not really exist so no one is sending or sending themselves.

I think the story of hell has softened. I think it has softened for only one good reason. People realize that anyone who would actually send someone to such a place would be a Monster. How could they have God being a Monster?

Hmmm? so what would religion do with hell? Since religion values blame, someone has to get the blame. How about those unbelievers or those who make a few bad choices. Ah yes, WE and they. They have always been the bad ones. They did it to themselves that way God can be innocent. What religious people do not realize is that if hell actually existed, God could no longer be innocent. God would still be a Monster.

AS I said, hell does not exist. If you think it does, maybe it's time to examine yourself and see why you want hell to exist.

That's why I am seeing.

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If God can reward eternally, God can punish eternally.

Taking all Biblical and all other religions plus Theo Philosophy into account, we find that the universe was a present to God. Though God gave the power to the servants to create matter and time with mankind being the centerpiece, these servants chose to input hideous evolution into an otherwise beautiful gift. Mankind may have been able to deal with the result of manipulated evolution much like an animal is trained to behave by addressing these animal instincts. However, these supernatural former servants are using all their power working behind the scenes to manipulate our minds in turning away from what we know what is right.
God was set to destroy this 'gift' along with man until Someone intervened on mankind's behalf.
The result was that mankind was given the chance to become what God requires in order for us to be with Him. That being a changed state from what we become as we reach full awareness. This is the changed spiritual state. It is a radical change to the positive from what we wete known to be like formerly.

Though we may be trapped in some of our bad habits and language, our new spiritual state never changes.

To pass on changing our spiritual state is to pass on heaven.

Jos said:

Which is it? All of sudden nowadays I've heard a toned down version of hell from theists where a just God doesn't deservedly send you there to punish you for your sins but you send yourself there by rejecting God's love apparently, and He isn't punishing you but you're punishing yourself. All of sudden it's toned down from version that takes responsibility away from God and places it in our hands, I guess as another way to get God off the hook for anything. So which is it: does God punish us or do we punish ourselves?

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Hello,

Just my understanding that makes sense to my own mind and reason.

Language and terms that were once used and suitable for past ages need to be reinterpreted for our modern age.

In those days people were mostly illiterate and uneducated and lacked capacity to form concepts such as ego and spiritual death so concepts like these I believe were taught in a way people could relate to them best. People were mostly superstitious so terms such as Satan and burning hell worked well to put the fear of God unto them.

But as the scientific age dawned it became increasingly obvious that there is no such monster as satan or a place such as hell but that these are terms for the ego and being in a bad space. Science is and has had a tremendous cleansing effect upon religion sweeping away many superstitions and myths and will continue to do so until religion is shorn of all its superstitions.

People are awakening in this age of knowledge and science I believe and just beginning to understand that these were symbolic terms used to help people of past ages to advance spiritually but now we each, as responsible human beings know that if we allow ourselves to be egotistical it will prevent us from growing spiritually.

Now, in this age, new concepts of heaven and hell and Satan are emerging such as - heaven is nearness to God while hell is to be far from Him, the death of unbelief as opposed to the life of faith and Satan depicted as the ‘insistent self’.

God I believe, sends new Messengers for each age to renew religion according to our new capacities . If we choose to remain in the past and cling to beliefs of a real Satan and hell as a real place then so be it despite science and reason.

But for those of us who have moved on and accepted God’s latest Messengers, for us, we believe that there is a far more mature understanding to be had of notions like Hell, heaven and Satan in the Writings Of the Bab and Baha’u’llah and these I believe are common sense understandings that agree with science and reason.

Jos said:

Which is it? All of sudden nowadays I've heard a toned down version of hell from theists where a just God doesn't deservedly send you there to punish you for your sins but you send yourself there by rejecting God's love apparently, and He isn't punishing you but you're punishing yourself. All of sudden it's toned down from version that takes responsibility away from God and places it in our hands, I guess as another way to get God off the hook for anything. So which is it: does God punish us or do we punish ourselves?

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I have to side with you on this one Jos.
I think what we have on our hands is a simple case of expounding on a lie.

As we know, there can be only one truth, but a lie.... why, you can get thousands, even billions, and from just one.
So what has happened imv, is that a lie was started - not from the Bible, but from people's ideas - whether intentional, or mistaken.
The lie - God torments the wicked in an eternal fire?
Wait! But how?
Another lie - We don't really die, because we are really immortal souls wearing a shell, called a body.

Now... because this don't sit right with some folk, they form their own idea, or version of it, while holding the original concept.
So we get hundreds, even thousands of splinters, from just one.
From one lie, we get thousands of lies, because it's impossible to build truth from a lie.

The same thing happened with the Trinity.
It started with a lie - God the father. God the son. God the holy ghost. Yet not three Gods, but one. Co-eternal. Co-equal.

Again, this was not settling with some, so again there were breakaways, and forming of new sects - different versions, but the same concept.
From the root lie, came hundreds of branches. Well maybe not so much, but you get the idea.

Isn't the Devil a sweet guy.
No. Jesus calls him a liar, and the father of the lie, and through his servant John, he said, the Devil is misleading the entire inhabited earth. - John 8:44; Revelation 12:9

...and yes, he hides in the shadows, so people don't think he is there. Besides, he is invisible.
So when people find pleasure in stabbing someone 73 times less one, and cutting off their head with a knife, or cutting them into pieces, people say, "Oh, he just has a mental problem" or, "Oh, it's just the animal in him - just being what he is."

Really?

lostwanderingsoul said:

Sorry Terry but the Bible says hell is a place where the evil people wil be destroyed. Burned up to ashes. No one who goes there will get out.

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Sorry lostwanderingsoul. The Bible does not say these things. Where does it?
What about Revelation 20:13, 14?
Revelation 20:13-14 King James Version (KJV)
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

1213 said:

I believe those who are sent to hell, are destroyed, because Bible says:

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28

But, if I am wrong and people live eternally in hell, I think they make it suffering by themselves, because they have rejected God and therefore also love and all good.

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1213, sadly, some translation have done an injustice to the scriptures.
Perhaps it might be good to research the Greek words the KJV (especially) translate 'hell'.
The Greek word at Matthew 10:28 is γέεννα, ης, ἡ - Gehenna.
This is different to ᾍδης, ου, ὁ - Hades.
The KJV wrongfully translates both as hell.
I saw a video some time ago, where someone nicely explained it. I will see if I can find it later.

shmogie said:

Those who choose to reject God reap the results of that choice, God will ensure they die, permanently. They cease to exist.

No eternal torture, no vengeful God, just eternal sleep.

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I didn't know that you held the annihilationist point of view, Shmogie.

Brickjectivity said:

I didn't know that you held the annihilationist point of view, Shmogie.

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Yep, it is consistent with God as I know him. I would have difficulty with a God who tortures people for eternity.

A rabid dog is put down, people who by choice have no place in eternity deserve the same mercy, God is a God of mercy.

shmogie said:

Yep, it is consistent with God as I know him. I would have difficulty with a God who tortures people for eternity.

A rabid dog is put down, people who by choice have no place in eternity deserve the same mercy, God is a God of mercy.

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I should make up a spreadsheet showing which members think what, because this takes me by surprise. On the other hand...people change their minds, so it would be impossible to keep the spreadsheet up to date. Anyways spreadsheets are such memory hogs, and I should just use notepad or something.

Its hard to hold the annihilationist position, because you wind up disagreeing a lot with people. You also wind up agreeing with people who are even further from the glom. What do you do? Do you talk about this a lot or tend to be on the quiet side? Do you hang mostly with people who share your view?

Brickjectivity said:

I should make up a spreadsheet showing which members think what, because this takes me by surprise. On the other hand...people change their minds, so it would be impossible to keep the spreadsheet up to date. Anyways spreadsheets are such memory hogs, and I should just use notepad or something.

Its hard to hold the annihilationist position, because you wind up disagreeing a lot with people. You also wind up agreeing with people who are even further from the glom. What do you do? Do you talk about this a lot or tend to be on the quiet side? Do you hang mostly with people who share your view?

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If a discussion occurs about "hell" I am eager to share my view.

I am not much with a hanger anymore.

When I go to Church, it is one where I assume the members believe in the torture chamber hell.

If it comes up, I tell it like it is. They may vehemently disagree, but just take it in stride. I am not declared a heretic , at least to my face.

Jos said:

or do we punish ourselves?

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Wrongdoers feel good with themselves. So, no. The christian God does the punishing in hell.

shmogie said:

If a discussion occurs about "hell" I am eager to share my view.

I am not much with a hanger anymore.

When I go to Church, it is one where I assume the members believe in the torture chamber hell.

If it comes up, I tell it like it is. They may vehemently disagree, but just take it in stride. I am not declared a heretic , at least to my face.

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I think its awful that children are taught to think that its either heaven or hell, so I appreciate that.

Jos said:

Which is it? All of sudden nowadays I've heard a toned down version of hell from theists where a just God doesn't deservedly send you there to punish you for your sins but you send yourself there by rejecting God's love apparently, and He isn't punishing you but you're punishing yourself. All of sudden it's toned down from version that takes responsibility away from God and places it in our hands, I guess as another way to get God off the hook for anything. So which is it: does God punish us or do we punish ourselves?

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God would like everybody to be saved (1 Tim 2:4) so if anybody ends up not saved, it's not God's idea. We have this little thing called free will. God wants us to love him by our free will. He's not interested in robotic worshipers.

I think a careful read of the scriptures would show that the unjust will get thrown into a lake of fire. Wouldn't you think that getting thrown into a lake of fire would be instant death? Of course it would be, and that is exactly what the scriptures say. It's called the "second death" in Revelation (Rev 2:11, 20:6, 20:14, 21:8).

Contrary to popular belief, the dead are actually dead. They have no thoughts, feeling, awareness, or anything else that usually accompanies life. You have to look in the Old Testament to find all of that. It's there.

@1213 Here is the video. It's important to watch from beginning to end,

Brickjectivity said:

I think its awful that children are taught to think that its either heaven or hell, so I appreciate that.

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Yes, it is difficult to teach your children that God loves them, but will torture them forever if they don´t love Him.
I never had to teach that to my kids.

Jos said:

Which is it?

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hell is that place where everyone thinks and feels like you do

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you...….
was fair warning

nPeace said:

@1213 Here is the video. It's important to watch from beginning to end,

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I'm sorry, but I have to interfere for a moment.
The video is nonsense. The Bible clearly teaches the hell.

Luke 16:19-31 clearly describes the hell.

Revelation 14:9-11
“If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

Revelation 20:10
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Mark 9:45-46
And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46 Where their worm(soul) dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Matthew 8:12
But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.