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Rabbi Sucks Baby's Penis And Gives Him Herpes

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
Anyone could potentially be a carrier of anything.

True, which is why we take precautionary measures by washing hands and educating people on hygiene.

A doctor walking through a ward might have a cold.

Hence is why we in the hospital use a mask....

Hospital-acquired infections are a problem but the solution isn't to ban hospitals. If you look at the response to these cases that I posted, you will see that the The question of what is taboo is cultural.

All of this is irrelevant to the fact that a rabbi suckling the wound of a circumcised penis is nasty and unsanitary. some cultures think cutting is tradition but it doesn't change the fact that it would typically be deemed harmful. In this case the rabbi didn't do his due diligence by making sure he was in good health and didn't take the proper measures to make sure the baby was safe. The baby contracted herpes this is not simply a cold. Herpes Simplex 1 and 2 is a virus.

Cross cultural judgments based on local taboos are dangerous.

I agree. But I'm speaking on as a medical professional.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
I prefer to not take it on faith in your inerrant opinion.

Your opinion is now registered.
Are you OK with doing the same to girls?
I believe we have had this discussion before.

If you wanted to include symbolic circumcision, then yes. However if allowing symbolic circumcision of females is concluded to encourage actual female circumcision then i can certainly agree with laws against it. Do you have any evidence that female circumcision, symbolic or actual, provides any of the same medical benefits of male circumcision?
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
True, which is why we take precautionary measures by washing hands and educating people on hygiene.
I heard something interesting yesterday. I was being counseled to have a procedure in an ambulatory center and not a hospital so I could avoid a staph infection (by my insurance carrier who quoted statistics). If there is a known fact that there is a higher risk of contracting an infection in a hospital, then maybe we should ban hospitals. If you want to say that statistically, there is still a better outcome and that the number of infections is low etc, one could say the same about MBP.


Hence is why we in the hospital use a mask....
When walking through an ER? Not in any ER I have been in.


All of this is irrelevant to the fact that a rabbi suckling the wound of a circumcised penis is nasty and unsanitary.
That must be a technical, medical term.
some cultures think cutting is tradition but it doesn't change the fact that it would typically be deemed harmful.
Like western cultures that embrace invasive surgery, as opposed to those who don't endorse such interventions.
I guess CS is more sanitary and less nasty than others who allow for surgeries.
In this case the rabbi didn't do his due diligence by making sure he was in good health and didn't take the proper measures to make sure the baby was safe. The baby contracted herpes this is not simply a cold. Herpes Simplex 1 and 2 is a virus.
And if a doctor goes to work and doesn't wash his hands after sneezing, do we ban doctors? If, in fact, the fault lies with the individual and his practices then, as has been the case, that individual can be banned without commenting on the practice.

Did you read the quote about the cases? "The result of one investigation was inconclusive. The results of the other two showed that the two mohelim were clearly not the source of the disease"
 
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Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
If there is a known fact that there is a higher risk of contracting an infection in a hospital, then maybe we should ban hospitals.

That is ridiculous. For one, most if not all hospitals have sanitation centers for your hands so even if there is a risk of MRSA it is very much localized and controlled.

When walking through an ER? Not in any ER I have been in.

Well I can only speak for my ER. Now, all hospitals are not equal. Masks are not mandatory, but greatly encouraged.

That must be a technical, medical term.

Elaborate

Like western cultures that embrace invasive surgery, as opposed to those who don't endorse such interventions.
I guess CS is more sanitary and less nasty than others who allow for surgeries.

I fail to see your connection between invasive surgeries and the sucking on a wound site. Clearly, there is a problem in the ultra-orthodox community concerning the spreading of Herpes as opposed to hospitals where there is little to no reports of complications.

And if a doctor goes to work and doesn't wash his hands after sneezing, do we ban doctors?

Of course not. But in this conversation nobody at least I'm not condoning the banning of this practice, I'm merely saying it's unsafe.

The results of the other two showed that the two mohelim were clearly not the source of the disease"

I did read that, but I also read this:

"According to the Health Department, 24 cases of herpes have been linked to circumcision since 2000. Two of the infants died and two others suffered brain damage.

Last year, there were two cases. In 2015, there were three cases.

Since 2006, 22 percent of all male neonatal herpes cases were linked to ritual circumcision.

Leaders of the ultra-Orthodox Jewish community have opposed any restrictions on the centuries-old ritual as an infringement on religious freedom.

Mohels who perform the circumcisions are not even required to be tested for herpes, according to Health Department rules."

Source
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I believe we have had this discussion before.
I saw no argument for health benefits.
If you wanted to include symbolic circumcision, then yes. However if allowing symbolic circumcision of females is concluded to encourage actual female circumcision then i can certainly agree with laws against it.
Making a claim with the passive voice, eh.
The phrase "is concluded" is opinion masquerading as fact.
This is because no one makes the claim.
Do you have any evidence that female circumcision, symbolic or actual, provides any of the same medical benefits of male circumcision?
I see no evidence that any ritual mutilation offers health benefits to a modern society.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
That is ridiculous. For one, most if not all hospitals have sanitation centers for your hands so even if there is a risk of MRSA it is very much localized and controlled.
Then tell Aetna, my insurance. The told me to avoid the hospital to avoid infection.
I fail to see your connection between invasive surgeries and the sucking on a wound site. Clearly, there is a problem in the ultra-orthodox community concerning the spreading of Herpes as opposed to hospitals where there is little to no reports of complications.
You spoke of cutting ("some cultures think cutting is tradition but it doesn't change the fact that it would typically be deemed harmful."). Sucking was later called "nasty". I saw the connection between cutting/surgery and harm and just showed that there are cultures that avoid it and which look down on those that cut.



Leaders of the ultra-Orthodox Jewish community have opposed any restrictions on the centuries-old ritual as an infringement on religious freedom.
Which comports with your position (" I'm not condoning the banning of this practice"). That practitioners should be tested and cities like NY which have laws about banning those linked to cases of herpes should enforce those laws is a separate concern.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
I saw no argument for health benefits.
Perhaps you just do not remember what you have seen.

But in any case, male circumcision offers a decreased risk of penile cancer, a decreased likelihood of contracting an std, a decreased risk of urinary tract infections, it makes hygiene easier, and it removes all risk of issues such as phimosis.

Making a claim with the passive voice, eh.
The phrase "is concluded" is opinion masquerading as fact.
This is because no one makes the claim.

No it is acknowledging that there are other facts at play and that I am understanding of laws are aimed at these larger issues.
I see no evidence that any ritual mutilation offers health benefits to a modern society.

Whether you see it or not is entirely beside the point, though I am happy to walk you through it again.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Perhaps you just do not remember what you have seen.
Perhaps you don't remember not making the argument, eh.
But in any case, male circumcision offers a decreased risk of penile cancer, a decreased likelihood of contracting an std, a decreased risk of urinary tract infections, it makes hygiene easier, and it removes all risk of issues such as phimosis.
Support for claims would be nice.
But be sure to balance your positives with negatives,
eg, infection, amputation, loss of sensation.
No it is acknowledging that there are other facts at play and that I am understanding of laws are aimed at these larger issues.
Let's see some facts.
Whether you see it or not is entirely beside the point, though I am happy to walk you through it again.
And yet, you've again refrained from presenting any evidence for me to wade thru.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Perhaps you don't remember not making the argument, eh.

Support for claims would be nice.
But be sure to balance your positives with negatives,
eg, infection, amputation, loss of sensation.

Let's see some facts.

And yet, you've again refrained from presenting any evidence for me to wade thru.
I'm sorry. Perhaps we need to see where your understanding is.

Do you agree that circumcision offers the benefits i have listed?

If not, with which do you not agree?

You are welcome to look up the subject if you do not want to take my word for it, but before i do any legwork for you let us see if we can narrow the scope.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I'm sorry. Perhaps we need to see where your understanding is.

Do you agree that circumcision offers the benefits i have listed?

If not, with which do you not agree?

You are welcome to look up the subject if you do not want to take my word for it, but before i do any legwork for you let us see if we can narrow the scope.
I actually have looked it up before.
(This is why I know you'll not present anything convincing.)
But you're the one making the claim of health benefits.
So the burden of proof is on you.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
I actually have looked it up before.
(This is why I know you'll not present anything convincing.)
But you're the one making the claim of health benefits.
So the burden of proof is on you.
Again narrow it down.

Do you believe that circumcision reduces the chance to get phimosis later in life?

Do you believe that circumcision reduces risk of penile cancer?

Do you believe that circumcision reduces the risk of contracting an std?

Do you believe that circumcision makes hygiene easier?

Do you believe that circumcision reduces the risk of urinary track infection?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Again narrow it down.

Do you believe that circumcision reduces the chance to get phimosis later in life?

Do you believe that circumcision reduces risk of penile cancer?

Do you believe that circumcision reduces the risk of contracting an std?

Do you believe that circumcision makes hygiene easier?

Do you believe that circumcision reduces the risk of urinary track infection?
Let's start with justifying your claims.
I know that this is more work for you,
& less for me...but I can live with that.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
But in any case, male circumcision offers a decreased risk of penile cancer, a decreased likelihood of contracting an std, a decreased risk of urinary tract infections, it makes hygiene easier, and it removes all risk of issues such as phimosis.
I've seen similar reasons why we should remove breasts. Reduces or removes risks of breast cancer, fibroid tissues, duct infections, skin infections under breasts, etc, etc, etc.

The question isn't 'is there medical benefit' but 'does the medical benefit justify the procedure, especially of non-consenting children for which other modification surgeries are illegal.'

Edit: It's also worth mentioning that over half of all penile cancer cases come from contracting HPV which, like other STDs, be better mitigated by encouraging safe sex practices than cutting off part of the penis.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
I've seen similar reasons why we should remove breasts. Reduces or removes risks of breast cancer, fibroid tissues, duct infections, skin infections under breasts, etc, etc, etc.

The question isn't 'is there medical benefit' but 'does the medical benefit justify the procedure, especially of non-consenting children for which other modification surgeries are illegal.'
Well that is a different discussion all together isn't it.

One is no longer insisting that there is no medical benefit at that point. I however have not heard arguments that we should remove young children's breasts.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Edit: It's also worth mentioning that over half of all penile cancer cases come from contracting HPV which, like other STDs, be better mitigated by encouraging safe sex practices than cutting off part of the penis.
One might also suggest getting your child vaccinated, but that again would fall under technical "harm" to an child that cannot consent.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Silly analogy time.....
Suppose you claim that Jesus is God.
I'm going to ask for justification instead of offering a disproof.
Except i would suggest you focus on what is in front of you. If you do not believe one or more of the claims then say so and let me know which ones. If you do recognize that these claims are true save us both the trouble and make an argument.
 
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