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Did Muhammad authored the Quran?

firedragon

firedragon

Veteran Member
Raymann said:
A belief by definition is an act of faith, you cannot prove it one way or the other.
You just use common sense, logic or any other way you consider appropriate to determine if you trust it or not.

Are you ready to answer why you don't trust the Hadith in question?
Any reasons or just don't like the implications of it?
Click to expand...

I never said I dont trust it.

I am questioning your belief in a hadith. one.
 
Raymann

Raymann

Active Member
firedragon said:
I never said I dont trust it.

I am questioning your belief in a hadith. one.
Click to expand...
And I am questioning your belief in the hadith?
You seem surprised I believe in it. Why? There's gotta be a reason.
I already explained about ten times that I believe in it because of the overwhelming general consensus.
Meaning that I haven't seen any writings claiming that is not authentic or that it is false.
You act all surprised that I believe in it but you are unable to put in words why?
You're not making any sense.
 
stvdv

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
loverofhumanity said:
It’s a beautiful feeling to be free from prejudice and respect all religions. All who teach this concept are bringing our war torn world closer to peace. It leads to brotherhood and I always feel welcome by you because you have this enlightened understanding that we are all one.
Click to expand...
Thank you for your kind words. I believe that is maybe the only key needed in this age "true respect of all religions" to get peace on earth.

And it gives peace of mind not having to prove "I am the best", and not having to fight others over which religion is best.

Even if there are mistakes in Scriptures is no problem to me, because it's a personal quest, so in the end you have to leave Scripture behind anyway.
 
stvdv

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
loverofhumanity said:
Yes I forgot people do have visions and dreams. One example I know of is Tahirih one of the first disciples of the Bab. She never met Him personally but in a dream after which she accepted Him.
Click to expand...
Beautiful story of Tahirih. Very special indeed. Horrible that she was executed for "unveiling" and being Bahai. Respect religions is really needed.
Before her death she declared: "You can kill me as soon as you like, but you cannot stop the emancipation of women."

loverofhumanity said:
The disciples of Christ also had visions of Moses and God on Mount Tabor. We can all experience these things but not all of them are necessarily from God.
Click to expand...
If I have a vision of Christ or other Prophets then I know when it is true. Once a Christian Saint came to me in my dream. I did not know Him. Then He shook my hand and introduced Himself, mentioning His Name. Later on I googled His Name, and found Him. And on the website was only 1 picture that looked exactly like Him. Few years later I checked the website again, and they had edited the website, and that picture was gone. I mailed them, and told them, they removed the picture that looked exactly like Him. But it was gone, no chance getting it back. They thought that was the wrong picture. God's leela. First give me something, then take it away.:)
 
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Raymann

Raymann

Active Member
Raymann said: ↑
None of them (Abraham, Moses, Isaiah, Saul) are part of this discussion.
We are challenging Muhammad on this thread.

sooda said:
Don't you think that's a bit hypocritical?
Click to expand...

Not at all. If I was a Christian you could say that but I am an agnostic so how I am hypocritical?
I don't believe they were real prophets either.
 
sooda

sooda

Veteran Member
Raymann said:
Raymann said: ↑
None of them (Abraham, Moses, Isaiah, Saul) are part of this discussion.
We are challenging Muhammad on this thread.



Not at all. If I was a Christian you could say that but I am an agnostic so how I am hypocritical?
I don't believe they were real prophets either.
Click to expand...

Sure they were real prophets.. Israel had schools for prophets from the time of Samuel.. Could they see the future? Nope. That's why the texts were amended.
 
firedragon

firedragon

Veteran Member
Raymann said:
And I am questioning your belief in the hadith?
You seem surprised I believe in it. Why? There's gotta be a reason.
I already explained about ten times that I believe in it because of the overwhelming general consensus.
Meaning that I haven't seen any writings claiming that is not authentic or that it is false.
You act all surprised that I believe in it but you are unable to put in words why?
You're not making any sense.
Click to expand...

You know brother! You propose something with a post, and someone questions your evidence to your belief, without giving a genuine reason for your personal belief you ask the questioner "give me reasons you dont believe it". Thats the epitome of the burden of proof fallacy.

You believe in it for your convenience. But you have no genuine reasons for that other than "the book is called Sahih". If the book is all Sahih then you should believe all the stories in the book. Because that's your reasoning. So do you believe all? For example, all 9 volumes of Sahih Buhari. Do you? Of course not. You have cherry picked only this story to believe. Thats fine, but you must have your reasons to do so. Asking others to prove why they dont believe is a logical fallacy. Mainly because the proposition is yours.
 
Raymann

Raymann

Active Member
firedragon said:
someone questions your evidence to your belief, without giving a genuine reason for your personal belief you ask the questioner "give me reasons you dont believe it".
Click to expand...
I challenged Muslims using arguments based on their own sacred books and they have found no real reasons to persuade me I'm wrong.
The facts stand.
According to the Quran and a Hadith Angel Gabriel never introduced himself nor he introduced the God he was talking about.
Kadijah's cousin Warhaka (a Christian) was the one who put a name to the voice he heard in the cave.
You have given the opportunity to prove me wrong and you have failed miserably.
Questioning a Hadith you cannot prove is not authentic appears to be your only hope.
Not enough.
You have failed.
Case closed.
You have no arguments and you have lied.
You said the hadith I used dates 700 years after Muhammed died.
I proved the collector of the hadith wrote it 214 years after Muhammad died.
You didn't defend your lie.
You were asked to give a reason about the authenticity of the Hadith but you chose to stay silenced.
If you don't have any reason to believe my theory is wrong then have the decency to stand back and accept the loss.
You have been defeated.
 
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firedragon

firedragon

Veteran Member
Raymann said:
I challenged Muslims using arguments based on their own sacred books and they have found no real reasons to persuade me I'm wrong.
The facts stand.
According to the Quran and a Hadith Angel Gabriel never introduced himself nor he introduced the God he was talking about.
Kadijah's cousin Warhaka (a Christian) was the one who put a name to the voice he heard in the cave.
You have given the opportunity to prove me wrong and you have failed miserably.
Questioning a Hadith you cannot prove is not authentic appears to be your only hope.
Not enough.
You have failed.
Case closed.
You have no arguments and you have lied.
You said the hadith I used dates 700 years after Muhammed died.
I proved the collector of the hadith wrote it 214 years after Muhammad died.
You didn't defend your lie.
You were asked to give a reason about the authenticity of the Hadith but you chose to stay silenced.
If you don't have any reason to believe my theory is wrong then have the decency to stand back and accept the loss.
You have been defeated.
Click to expand...

Good. But do you believe that Muhammed was in a cave as you said in the OP or not brother?
 
W

Wasp

Active Member
Raymann said:
I explained it at least 10 times, just look at any of those responses, they are all the same response.
Do you believe he was not in the cave?
What do you believe?
Click to expand...
I believe. Yes. Although i don't think it is the most relevant question.

But it makes no sense for you to believe that. It isn't logical. You just think it convenient to "believe" it. If you really believed such stories you would do more studying about other stories related to it. But you're barely interested.
 
Raymann

Raymann

Active Member
Wasp said:
But it makes no sense for you to believe that.(Muhammad received the revelations in the cave)
Click to expand...
Why?
I never heard it any other way.
In the world that I live in, I think most westerners believe Muhammad received the revelations in the cave.
Thousands or millions of people visit the cave in Mecca every year.
To me, it is a total surprise that there are people who do not believe that is not where it happened.
Wasp said:
You just think it convenient to "believe" it.
Click to expand...
That is just plain stupid.
Why would it be convenient that way?
Do you realize that my claim that Angel Gabriel never identified himself is not affected if at the time of the revelations they were in Muhammad's house?
What if they were on a beach, or in the desert or while in the bathroom?
The location of the revelations has no importance to me.
Wasp said:
If you really believed such stories you would do more studying about other stories related to it. But you're barely interested.
Click to expand...
Such stories?
The stories come from Islamic most reliable sources.
The Quran and the Hadith.
What do you know about what I read and what should I read?
How do you know what interests me and what doesn't?
You're talking nonsense, you are unable to prove me wrong and you bring nothing useful to the discussion.
 
Bob Jones

Bob Jones

Prove It!
Raymann said:
When you read about the history of Muhammad and Islam inevitably you are going to stop at certain points, scratch your head and think, wait a minute, that doesn't seem right.
That doesn't seem, right? or should I have said that doesn't seem convincing?
It is my understanding that Muhammad received the revelations from an unidentified voice while in the cave.
Muhammad didn't know who was the one giving him the revelations and the voice giving the revelations didn't identify himself.
Muhammad told Khadijah about it and both told what had happened to Khadijah's cousin Wahraka ibn Nawfaal.
Wahraka ibn Nawfaal was a converted Christian so obviously he knew a lot about Christianity and the Gospels. He knew about the Christian "Angel Gabriel".
Basically Wahraka ibn Nawfaal put in Muhammad's head that he was a prophet, that the one giving him the revelations was Angel Gabriel and that the revelations were from Allah.
Is it possible that Muhammad took advantage of the situation and ran with it?
Is it possible that Muhammad is the real author of the Quran?
There are many revelations that are very suspicious and seem to be addressed with the sole purpose of benefitting Muhammad.
Why didn't Angel Gabriel identified himself and explained the revelations were from Allah?
Anyway, this is all my personal thinking and my personal reasons why I have a problem believing in Islam.
Click to expand...
Why did not god simply hand deliver the book?
 
T

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
sooda said:
  • All the Muslims I have ever talked with believed in Jesus
  • they just don't believe God had a human child
Click to expand...

  • Ahh, ... you mean "believed in Jesus" as in "acknowledge his actual, historical existence".
    • They better, because the Qur'an tells 'em to.
  • "They [Muslims] just don't believe God had a human child"?
    • And somebody thinks ALL Christians believe "God had a human child"? News to me.
      • I'm told that the Latter-day Saints believe that, and I suppose there are some non-LDS Christians around who believe that, but LDS and "some" non-LDS Christians are hardly ALL Christians, except in somebody's "wishful" thinking.
      • Human males "have human children" when a male contributes either an X or a Y chromosome and some autosomal DNA to the process of conception, which make their way, via a spermatozoa, into a human ovum, contributed by a human female.
      • Anyone who believes that Jesus' conception in the Virgin Mary took place without the aid/involvement/participation of a human male gets one of two choices:
        • Either Jesus was born without a Y chromosome and any autosomal DNA contribution other than that contributed by Mary, OR
        • God whipped up a Y chromosome and maybe some autosomal DNA out of nothing, and did so in Mary's womb.
  • OR the entire notion of Jesus' divinely accomplished no-human-father conception could be bogus and need rethinking.
  • That said, given the Muslim reliance on the Qur'an and Mohammad's revelation(s), Muslims are hardly in any position to claim any theological or scriptural superiority to a goodly number of Christians.
 
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