Problems with 'man' aspect of either trinity, or demigod[Jesus Believers only

MJFlores · Sep 22, 2019

Desert Snake said:
In christian mysticism, we note 'Jesus God', a description. That is fine, it is in a context of delineation. [It's a way of both delineating the names, and describing who Jesus is, 'God'.

I don't know why people are making things so complicated when the knowledge about God is so plain, simple and obvious.

This is what the Bible states whether the knowledge of God is plain or is it complex:

Romans 1:18-20 New International Version (NIV)
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

When people use imagination, assumption and wrong conclusions then that is not about God.
When people concoct stories and legends which are untrue then that is not about God
When people make simple things complicated than what is so plain then that is not about God

According to the Bible this will happen at the End of the World:

I will be using a plain version of the Bible so as not to make things complicated

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
But Christ really has been raised from death—the first one of all those who will be raised. Death comes to people because of what one man did. But now there is resurrection from death because of another man. I mean that in Adam all of us die. And in the same way, in Christ all of us will be made alive again. But everyone will be raised to life in the right order. Christ was first to be raised. Then, when Christ comes again, those who belong to him will be raised to life. Then the end will come. Christ will destroy all rulers, authorities, and powers. Then he will give the kingdom to God the Father.

Christ must rule until God puts all enemies under his control. The last enemy to be destroyed will be death. As the Scriptures say, “God put everything under his control.” When it says that “everything” is put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself. God is the one putting everything under Christ’s control. After everything has been put under Christ, then the Son himself will be put under God. God is the one who put everything under Christ. And Christ will be put under God so that God will be the complete ruler over everything.

Now that is from the Bible....
Knowing God is not that complicated
And knowing Christ is not that complicated

King Phenomenon · Sep 22, 2019

Desert Snake said:
Jesus, the 'man', if a human, isn't a deified man. Why? Because He always separated the 'god aspect', that He represented, and the 'man aspect'. Therefore, He did not expect to become a 'god'.

Jesus said 'I and the father are one', this either means, the 'same spirit', the Lord, inhabiting a human body, or, it means, the 'representative', the word of god.
Neither of these options, mean a 'deified human', because Jesus is already one, with the father, prior to resurrection.

Jesus as a 'man', deified after resurrection, makes two g-ds, not one, therefore that doesn't work, either.

So, what is your answer? How are you not deriving either two g-ds, or, the incarnation of the Lord can work, however that makes it two beings, again.

Discuss and debate

I read somewhere that God manifest himself through a man

Desert Snake said:
Jesus, the 'man', if a human, isn't a deified man. Why? Because He always separated the 'god aspect', that He represented, and the 'man aspect'. Therefore, He did not expect to become a 'god'.

Jesus said 'I and the father are one', this either means, the 'same spirit', the Lord, inhabiting a human body, or, it means, the 'representative', the word of god.
Neither of these options, mean a 'deified human', because Jesus is already one, with the father, prior to resurrection.

Jesus as a 'man', deified after resurrection, makes two g-ds, not one, therefore that doesn't work, either.

So, what is your answer? How are you not deriving either two g-ds, or, the incarnation of the Lord can work, however that makes it two beings, again.

Discuss and debate

I read that God manifested himself through Jesus which is pretty cool because when I think about God he seems a little far off, almost ungraspable. Jesus is someone a little more down the earth or easier to grasp.

MJFlores · Sep 22, 2019

Jim25 said:
I read somewhere that God manifest himself through a man

I read that God manifested himself through Jesus which is pretty cool because when I think about God he seems a little far off, almost ungraspable. Jesus is someone a little more down the earth or easier to grasp.

I believe being truthful is better than being cool.

The Israelites wanted to be cool than truthful and this is what is recorded in the Bible:

Isaiah 48:1 New International Version (NIV)
“Listen to this, you descendants of Jacob,
you who are called by the name of Israel
and come from the line of Judah,
you who take oaths in the name of the Lord
and invoke the God of I4srael—
but not in truth or righteousness—

So here the Israelites invoke the God of Israel but not in truth or righteousness - and that is uncool.

So what did Jesus say about God and how must God be worshiped?

John 4:24 New International Version (NIV)
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

So according to Jesus Christ of the bible, he said God is spirit [invisible, unseen].
And God must be worshiped in truth - not in the opposite way or in a lie - even though it is cool.

Any person who is teaching something about God or something about Jesus which is in conflict with the Scriptures - and there are plenty of those in the world - the Bible describes these people in this way:

1 Timothy 6:3-5 New International Version (NIV)
If anyone teaches otherwise and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, they are conceited and understand nothing. They have an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions and constant friction between people of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.

So what is the Truth?

The Bible is God's Truth and is the Truth.
Other than that - is a lie.
People would rather lie because it is something that they are itching to hear.
And this fact is recorded in the Bible.

2 Timothy 4:3 New International Version (NIV)
For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

Why do people like unsound doctrine?
Why do people like lies instead of the truth?
Why do people rather believe Jesus is God instead of a man who told the truth about God?
Why?

John 8:39-45 New International Version (NIV)

“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would do what Abraham did. As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. You are doing the works of your own father.”

“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”

Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!

People can't handle the truth because they belong to the Devil.

King Phenomenon · Sep 22, 2019

MJFlores said:
I believe being truthful is better than being cool.

The Israelites wanted to be cool than truthful and this is what is recorded in the Bible:

Isaiah 48:1 New International Version (NIV)
“Listen to this, you descendants of Jacob,
you who are called by the name of Israel
and come from the line of Judah,
you who take oaths in the name of the Lord
and invoke the God of I4srael—
but not in truth or righteousness—

So here the Israelites invoke the God of Israel but not in truth or righteousness - and that is uncool.

So what did Jesus say about God and how must God be worshiped?

John 4:24 New International Version (NIV)
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

So according to Jesus Christ of the bible, he said God is spirit [invisible, unseen].
And God must be worshiped in truth - not in the opposite way or in a lie - even though it is cool.

Any person who is teaching something about God or something about Jesus which is in conflict with the Scriptures - and there are plenty of those in the world - the Bible describes these people in this way:

1 Timothy 6:3-5 New International Version (NIV)
If anyone teaches otherwise and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, they are conceited and understand nothing. They have an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions and constant friction between people of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.

So what is the Truth?

The Bible is God's Truth and is the Truth.
Other than that - is a lie.
People would rather lie because it is something that they are itching to hear.
And this fact is recorded in the Bible.

2 Timothy 4:3 New International Version (NIV)
For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

Why do people like unsound doctrine?
Why do people like lies instead of the truth?
Why do people rather believe Jesus is God instead of a man who told the truth about God?
Why?

John 8:39-45 New International Version (NIV)

“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would do what Abraham did. As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. You are doing the works of your own father.”

“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”

Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!

People can't handle the truth because they belong to the Devil.

I never said Jesus was God. I'm just quoting what somebody wrote and as I read it I took It to mean Jesus was a manifestation. The father being God the son being Jesus and the spirit being the relationship between the Father and Son.

MJFlores · Sep 22, 2019

Desert Snake said:
Exaggerate much?

John 8:42-47 New International Version (NIV)
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

That is from the Bible. Now I said this:

People can't handle the truth because they belong to the Devil.

Did I exaggerate?

King Phenomenon · Sep 22, 2019

Desert Snake said:
Exaggerate much?

MJFlores said:
I believe being truthful is better than being cool.

The Israelites wanted to be cool than truthful and this is what is recorded in the Bible:

Isaiah 48:1 New International Version (NIV)
“Listen to this, you descendants of Jacob,
you who are called by the name of Israel
and come from the line of Judah,
you who take oaths in the name of the Lord
and invoke the God of I4srael—
but not in truth or righteousness—

So here the Israelites invoke the God of Israel but not in truth or righteousness - and that is uncool.

So what did Jesus say about God and how must God be worshiped?

John 4:24 New International Version (NIV)
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

So according to Jesus Christ of the bible, he said God is spirit [invisible, unseen].
And God must be worshiped in truth - not in the opposite way or in a lie - even though it is cool.

Any person who is teaching something about God or something about Jesus which is in conflict with the Scriptures - and there are plenty of those in the world - the Bible describes these people in this way:

1 Timothy 6:3-5 New International Version (NIV)
If anyone teaches otherwise and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, they are conceited and understand nothing. They have an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions and constant friction between people of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.

So what is the Truth?

The Bible is God's Truth and is the Truth.
Other than that - is a lie.
People would rather lie because it is something that they are itching to hear.
And this fact is recorded in the Bible.

2 Timothy 4:3 New International Version (NIV)
For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

Why do people like unsound doctrine?
Why do people like lies instead of the truth?
Why do people rather believe Jesus is God instead of a man who told the truth about God?
Why?

John 8:39-45 New International Version (NIV)

“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would do what Abraham did. As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. You are doing the works of your own father.”

“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”

Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!

People can't handle the truth because they belong to the Devil.

Don't get me wrong I'm very happy that God is so powerful but I think his relationship with Jesus is pretty cool

MJFlores · Sep 22, 2019

Jim25 said:
I never said Jesus was God. I'm just quoting what somebody wrote and as I read it I took It to mean Jesus was a manifestation. The father being God the son being Jesus and the spirit being the relationship between the Father and Son.

So Jesus was a manifestation?
A puppet you mean?

He is no puppet.
He is a man who told the truth which he heard from God.

John 8:39-40 New International Version (NIV)
“Abraham is our father,” they answered.

“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would do what Abraham did. As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things.

He is not even a manifestation.
He is a man.

King Phenomenon · Sep 22, 2019

Well for me Jesus is a little different than other men

MJFlores · Sep 23, 2019

Jim25 said:
Well for me Jesus is a little different than other men

A little different than other men, is an understatement.

Who is Jesus Christ?
Is he a manifestation?
What is a manifestation?

man·i·fes·ta·tion
/ˌmanəfəˈstāSH(ə)n,ˌmanəˌfesˈtāSH(ə)n/

noun
noun: manifestation; plural noun: manifestations
an event, action, or object that clearly shows or embodies something, especially a theory or an abstract idea.
"the first obvious manifestations of global warming"

Jesus is not an event
Jesus is not an action
Jesus is not an object
Hence Jesus is not a manifestation.

So who is Jesus? FROM THE BIBLE, this is where we get the truth - not from opinions of somebody but from the Holy Book we call the Bible:

This is what Peter, the apostle said:

Acts 2:22 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
“My fellow Israelites, listen to these words: Jesus from Nazareth was a very special man. God clearly showed this to you. He proved it by the miracles, wonders, and miraculous signs he did through Jesus. You all saw these things, so you know this is true.

Did Peter the apostle said Jesus was a special manifestation? NO he did not
Did Peter the apostle said Jesus was a special God? NO he did not
What did Christ own apostle, Peter said about him?
Jesus from Nazareth was a very special man

He is a very special man because he is Lord and Messiah.
How did he become Lord and Messiah?

Acts 2:36 New International Version (NIV)
“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

If we disregard what is written in the Scriptures - we then turn to believe in lies.
If what is spoken was not derived from the Bible - you betcha your bottom dollar...

Desert Snake · Sep 23, 2019

It's "Jesus's Kingdom", look it up in the bible.

It's God's, Kingdom, it's JESUS'S Kingdom,

•
Figure it out

Desert Snake · Sep 23, 2019

How many Lords do Jesus followers have ?

1 Corinthians 8:6
[One Lord, Jesus Christ

2 Corinthians 6:18
[Lord Almighty

Matthew 22:37
[Lord your God

•
One Lord, Jesus Christ, Lord your God.

•

Desert Snake · Sep 23, 2019

In other words, it's

One God.

King Phenomenon · Sep 23, 2019

MJFlores said:
A little different than other men, is an understatement.

Who is Jesus Christ?
Is he a manifestation?
What is a manifestation?

man·i·fes·ta·tion
/ˌmanəfəˈstāSH(ə)n,ˌmanəˌfesˈtāSH(ə)n/

noun
noun: manifestation; plural noun: manifestations
an event, action, or object that clearly shows or embodies something, especially a theory or an abstract idea.
"the first obvious manifestations of global warming"

Jesus is not an event
Jesus is not an action
Jesus is not an object
Hence Jesus is not a manifestation.

So who is Jesus? FROM THE BIBLE, this is where we get the truth - not from opinions of somebody but from the Holy Book we call the Bible:

This is what Peter, the apostle said:

Acts 2:22 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
“My fellow Israelites, listen to these words: Jesus from Nazareth was a very special man. God clearly showed this to you. He proved it by the miracles, wonders, and miraculous signs he did through Jesus. You all saw these things, so you know this is true.

Did Peter the apostle said Jesus was a special manifestation? NO he did not
Did Peter the apostle said Jesus was a special God? NO he did not
What did Christ own apostle, Peter said about him?
Jesus from Nazareth was a very special man

He is a very special man because he is Lord and Messiah.
How did he become Lord and Messiah?

Acts 2:36 New International Version (NIV)
“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

If we disregard what is written in the Scriptures - we then turn to believe in lies.
If what is spoken was not derived from the Bible - you betcha your bottom dollar...

So I guess I screwed up a little. God wouldn't be the event so in that respect you would be right. But the definition does also say it can be used as an abstract idea so if I were to say Jesus was the event as an abstract idea I guess he would be the manifestation.

King Phenomenon · Sep 23, 2019

MJFlores said:
A little different than other men, is an understatement.

Who is Jesus Christ?
Is he a manifestation?
What is a manifestation?

man·i·fes·ta·tion
/ˌmanəfəˈstāSH(ə)n,ˌmanəˌfesˈtāSH(ə)n/

noun
noun: manifestation; plural noun: manifestations
an event, action, or object that clearly shows or embodies something, especially a theory or an abstract idea.
"the first obvious manifestations of global warming"

Jesus is not an event
Jesus is not an action
Jesus is not an object
Hence Jesus is not a manifestation.

So who is Jesus? FROM THE BIBLE, this is where we get the truth - not from opinions of somebody but from the Holy Book we call the Bible:

This is what Peter, the apostle said:

Acts 2:22 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
“My fellow Israelites, listen to these words: Jesus from Nazareth was a very special man. God clearly showed this to you. He proved it by the miracles, wonders, and miraculous signs he did through Jesus. You all saw these things, so you know this is true.

Did Peter the apostle said Jesus was a special manifestation? NO he did not
Did Peter the apostle said Jesus was a special God? NO he did not
What did Christ own apostle, Peter said about him?
Jesus from Nazareth was a very special man

He is a very special man because he is Lord and Messiah.
How did he become Lord and Messiah?

Acts 2:36 New International Version (NIV)
“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

If we disregard what is written in the Scriptures - we then turn to believe in lies.
If what is spoken was not derived from the Bible - you betcha your bottom dollar...

Well I don't know how that would fly in front of her English professor but maybe I'm wrong. And if I am that's cool at least I know the definition of manifestation. I like to learn. Maybe I just like the sounds of the word. But at least we both agree that he was a bit different than most mine or in your case a lot different

King Phenomenon · Sep 23, 2019

MJFlores said:
So Jesus was a manifestation?
A puppet you mean?

He is no puppet.
He is a man who told the truth which he heard from God.

John 8:39-40 New International Version (NIV)
“Abraham is our father,” they answered.

“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would do what Abraham did. As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things.

He is not even a manifestation.
He is a man.

well according to the definition I could say that God the 'event' is a manifestation of Jesus ha ha

MJFlores said:
A little different than other men, is an understatement.

Who is Jesus Christ?
Is he a manifestation?
What is a manifestation?

man·i·fes·ta·tion
/ˌmanəfəˈstāSH(ə)n,ˌmanəˌfesˈtāSH(ə)n/

noun
noun: manifestation; plural noun: manifestations
an event, action, or object that clearly shows or embodies something, especially a theory or an abstract idea.
"the first obvious manifestations of global warming"

Jesus is not an event
Jesus is not an action
Jesus is not an object
Hence Jesus is not a manifestation.

So who is Jesus? FROM THE BIBLE, this is where we get the truth - not from opinions of somebody but from the Holy Book we call the Bible:

This is what Peter, the apostle said:

Acts 2:22 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
“My fellow Israelites, listen to these words: Jesus from Nazareth was a very special man. God clearly showed this to you. He proved it by the miracles, wonders, and miraculous signs he did through Jesus. You all saw these things, so you know this is true.

Did Peter the apostle said Jesus was a special manifestation? NO he did not
Did Peter the apostle said Jesus was a special God? NO he did not
What did Christ own apostle, Peter said about him?
Jesus from Nazareth was a very special man

He is a very special man because he is Lord and Messiah.
How did he become Lord and Messiah?

Acts 2:36 New International Version (NIV)
“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

If we disregard what is written in the Scriptures - we then turn to believe in lies.
If what is spoken was not derived from the Bible - you betcha your bottom dollar...

so I guess I could say that God 'the event' is a manifestation of Jesus. Ha ha now I'm confused. I think I'm getting lost in the semantics of the definition. Can anyone help. I need a English teacher. Haha I don't know who would be the event Jesus or God
Wow.......

MJFlores · Sep 23, 2019

Desert Snake said:
It's "Jesus's Kingdom", look it up in the bible.

It's God's, Kingdom, it's JESUS'S Kingdom,

•
Figure it out

God's kingdom is Jesus' kingdom
That is correct.

Translated: My house is your house.

And I have figured it out using the Bible
You know the Bible? The Scriptures?
Have you seen one lately???
Anyways....

This is what Jesus of the Bible said:

John 17:9-11 New International Version (NIV)
I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one.

Jesus prayed to God and said those words.
And who is God? The Holy Father is God
If Jesus said "I am coming to you [Holy Father] it is because Jesus is on earth
and God is in heaven
There is only one God - and that is not Jesus Christ
There is only one God - and that is not a pope who people call Holy Father
There is only one God - and that is the Holy Father of Jesus Christ

Desert Snake · Sep 23, 2019

Jim25 said:
well according to the definition I could say that God the 'event' is a manifestation of Jesus ha ha

so I guess I could say that God 'the event' is a manifestation of Jesus. Ha ha now I'm confused. I think I'm getting lost in the semantics of the definition. Can anyone help. I need a English teacher. Haha I don't know who would be the event Jesus or God
Wow.......

I'm not a Scripturalist, if you believe that there was a true JESUS, who manifested, then since Jesus pre-exists incarnation, that's all that matters. Semantics are silly, at a certain point, here.

MJFlores · Sep 23, 2019

Jim25 said:
well according to the definition I could say that God the 'event' is a manifestation of Jesus ha ha

so I guess I could say that God 'the event' is a manifestation of Jesus. Ha ha now I'm confused. I think I'm getting lost in the semantics of the definition. Can anyone help. I need a English teacher. Haha I don't know who would be the event Jesus or God
Wow.......

Do not believe in any man.
Do not even believe in me

If I posts based on my opinion - it is just an opinion
If Desert Snake posts based on his own opinion - it is just an opinion

However!
If it is from the bible - that is not an opinion.
That is Truth.

King Phenomenon · Sep 23, 2019

Desert Snake said:
I'm not a Scripturalist, if you believe that there was a true JESUS, who manifested, then since Jesus pre-exists incarnation, that's all that matters. Semantics are silly, at a certain point, here.

MJFlores said:
Do not believe in any man.
Do not even believe in me

If I posts based on my opinion - it is just an opinion
If Desert Snake posts based on his own opinion - it is just an opinion

However!
If it is from the bible - that is not an opinion.
That is Truth.

I'm just trying to come up with a way to express how Jesus is different than other men using the word manifestation. So I guess You don't understand the definition either which is cool

MJFlores said:
Do not believe in any man.
Do not even believe in me

If I posts based on my opinion - it is just an opinion
If Desert Snake posts based on his own opinion - it is just an opinion

However!
If it is from the bible - that is not an opinion.
That is Truth.

Desert Snake · Sep 23, 2019

The established religious organizations that have, successfully, I might add, tried to separate the nature of the real JESUS, thusly making Him, 'just a man', and focusing only on the 'man aspect', these are texts, remember, do not have spiritual truth as a goal. They have their own agendas, and those don't involve religious or spiritual truth.

Problems with 'man' aspect of either trinity, or demigod[Jesus Believers only

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