Evidence For And Against Evolution

Subduction Zone · Sep 19, 2019

YoursTrue said:
None of those families other than homo sapiens so far have developed by genetic forces, the ability to build rocket ships.

The reason that I said to this failed argument is that it looks as if you are trying to make some sort of special pleading fallacy.

You should investigate "emergent processes". Sometimes new traits arise from a variety of causes. So far no need for a God.

Yes, we can write and have deeper thoughts than other animals. But that does not appear to be evidence for a deity.

gnostic · Sep 20, 2019

YoursTrue said:
You are saying that the unique ability of humans to read and write did not come about to humans and not birds, let's say, by means of evolution?

As I keep saying to you, Evolution is biology, not about any one’s personal skills.

Whole population will inherit the physical and genetic traits, others will not.

This is not getting any where.

Let me put this way, you mentioned rocket.

If building rocket is a genetic trait, then everyone in your families, your neighbors, everyone in city, your country, etc, should be to build rockets, WITHOUT LEARNING HOW TO BUILD ROCKETS.

Can you build a rocket without learning the science and engineering of how to build rocket? Can your mother and father build them? Can your grandparents or great, great great grandparents? What about your neighbors?

Unless they all can build rockets without learning how to build them, then your claim isn’t about evolution.

You are forgetting that Evolution isn’t about individual person’s skills, but a whole population being able to share the same biological traits.

ratiocinator · Sep 20, 2019

YoursTrue said:
Yes, there is. Animals do not leave written documents about their history or thoughts. They are not wondering if there is life evolving on other planets.

Why do you think that is a sign of a god being involved? You need to show your working. What are the steps of reasoning that go from "humans can do all this stuff that other animals can't" to "therefore god"?

Valjean · Sep 20, 2019

YoursTrue said:
None of those families other than homo sapiens so far have developed by genetic forces, the ability to build rocket ships.

All right already!
You keep pointing out impressive human traits, but what's your point? What are these traits evidence of?

tas8831 · Sep 20, 2019

YoursTrue said:
So are apes developing a writing system?

Why would they be?

Strawman much?

Dan From Smithville · Sep 20, 2019

ratiocinator said:
Why do you think that is a sign of a god being involved? You need to show your working. What are the steps of reasoning that go from "humans can do all this stuff that other animals can't" to "therefore god"?

Cheetah's can run 60 mph and people can't. Therefore the Flash. Creationists don't seem to understand traits (and a number of other concepts). That intelligence is a trait or that some organisms can be the only living thing that has a certain trait or has the most optimal version of a certain trait does not seem to register with them.

Dan From Smithville · Sep 20, 2019

Valjean said:
All right already!
You keep pointing out impressive human traits, but what's your point? What are these traits evidence of?

Intelligence in humans.

YoursTrue · Sep 21, 2019

Subduction Zone said:
The reason that I said to this failed argument is that it looks as if you are trying to make some sort of special pleading fallacy.

You should investigate "emergent processes". Sometimes new traits arise from a variety of causes. So far no need for a God.

Yes, we can write and have deeper thoughts than other animals. But that does not appear to be evidence for a deity.

Thank you. I think it does. Because of what the Bible writer wrote when he said God said, "Let us make man in our image." I don't know what you think it means, but surely there is nothing written in Genesis that says God made horses in his image. Or cats. Or dogs. Etc. I was, by the way, reading about horses. They generally must be trained to obey their masters, also they will follow the lead horse.
(P.S. I know you think the Bible is a book of fables, I can't explain how Moses knew that God said He made man in His image, and not like a dog, etc., except that somehow God transmitted that information to Moses, either by angels -- which I believe in -- or by word of mouth from his predecessors.)

YoursTrue · Sep 21, 2019

tas8831 said:
Why would they be?

Strawman much?

Somehow I think your question as to why would gorillas (apes before what you believe are human apes) develop writing be a strawman, or to put it in a different form, not a solid question. So, yes -- why would gorillas develop a system of writing? Yes, why would they? They are happy hanging from trees, aren't they? They're happy not building cities, just careening from place to place in a local fashion. No development there. They're happy. I think.

ratiocinator · Sep 22, 2019

YoursTrue said:
I know you think the Bible is a book of fables

So why quote it when talking about evidence? So humans can do stuff that other animals can't and your favourite book of fables says this about them..... so what?

You are still missing any logical or evidential steps that take us from observing that humans do this stuff and the existence of your favourite god.

Polymath257 · Sep 22, 2019

YoursTrue said:
Somehow I think your question as to why would gorillas (apes before what you believe are human apes) develop writing be a strawman, or to put it in a different form, not a solid question. So, yes -- why would gorillas develop a system of writing? Yes, why would they? They are happy hanging from trees, aren't they? They're happy not building cities, just careening from place to place in a local fashion. No development there. They're happy. I think.

You do realize that humans have been around for 150,000 years and have only had writing during the last 5,000, right? We've only been building cities for the last 10-15,000.

Valjean · Sep 22, 2019

Dan From Smithville said:
Intelligence in humans.

Preface: There's more than one kind of intelligence. 9 Types Of Intelligence - Infographic
People use various skills to navigate their social, economic, and physical worlds. Facility varies. Some animals typically exceed humans in certain skills. Humans typically exceed other animals in others.

"What a piece of work is a man, how noble in reason, how
infinite in faculties, in form and moving how express and
admirable, in action how like an angel, in apprehension how like
a god! the beauty of the world, the paragon of animals—"
Wllm Shkespeare. Hamlet, Act II.

We tend to magnify our particular skillset as a status marker, and as justification for self-indulgence and species-despotism.

So....... What's your purport? What does 'human intelligence' signify, especially in relation to other species?

tas8831 · Sep 22, 2019

YoursTrue said:
Somehow I think your question as to why would gorillas (apes before what you believe are human apes)

More strawmanning? Or ore ignorance? Not sure.

I do not claim gorillas came before us. The only people that think this is what evolution posits are people that cannot understand how to interpret phylogenetic trees.

develop writing be a strawman, or to put it in a different form, not a solid question. So, yes -- why would gorillas develop a system of writing? Yes, why would they? They are happy hanging from trees, aren't they? They're happy not building cities, just careening from place to place in a local fashion. No development there. They're happy. I think.

Right - so why did you ask your strawman?

ecco · Sep 22, 2019

YoursTrue said:
Because of what the Bible writer wrote when he said God said, "Let us make man in our image."

What would you expect a storyteller to say?

"We have 17 arms and 42 legs and nine eyes and 6 penises, but that's all too complex for our creation - man. For him we are just going with two of everything, except the penis - there he gets just one".

The Greek Gods also looked like humans (well, humans with really great bodies).

Does it really impress you that man would want their gods to look like them and for them to look like their gods?

ecco · Sep 22, 2019

YoursTrue said:
I can't explain how Moses knew that God said He made man in His image, and not like a dog, etc., except that somehow God transmitted that information to Moses, either by angels -- which I believe in -- or by word of mouth from his predecessors.)

I guess you believe that angels wrote down that the serpent tempted Eve who tempted Adam who ate the fruit that got him and Eve thrown out of the Garden of Eden.

I guess you believe that angels wrote down the reason that Cain murdered Abel and the method he used.

Considering the Bible writers obsession with begetting, it's surprising that the angels didn't write down what combinations of Eve and Adam and Abel and Cain and siblings created more and more people.

It's too bad that the angels didn't write down who they gave all this information to.

ecco · Sep 22, 2019

YoursTrue said:
So, yes -- why would gorillas develop a system of writing? Yes, why would they? They are happy hanging from trees, aren't they? They're happy not building cities, just careening from place to place in a local fashion. No development there. They're happy. I think.

What's sad is that your weak attempt at sarcasm is closer to the truth than you realize. NEED drives advancement. For tens of thousands of years, man had no need for writing. The advent of trade created a need for accounting and record keeping. Gorillas have no need for writing. Neither do alligators or birds or cockroaches.

YoursTrue · Sep 22, 2019

Polymath257 said:
You do realize that humans have been around for 150,000 years and have only had writing during the last 5,000, right? We've only been building cities for the last 10-15,000.

So what happened to gorillas, chimps, and the closest relatives to homo sapiens? Why aren't they building cities and developing writing?

YoursTrue · Sep 22, 2019

ecco said:
What's sad is that your weak attempt at sarcasm is closer to the truth than you realize. NEED drives advancement. For tens of thousands of years, man had no need for writing. The advent of trade created a need for accounting and record keeping. Gorillas have no need for writing. Neither do alligators or birds or cockroaches.

You know that man had no need of writing, as you figure gorillas also have no need of writing. And others. Only humans have developed writing. A rather fantastic tool.

Which you say others have no need of. And you know this, how? Because you say gorillas and cockroaches do not trade.

YoursTrue · Sep 22, 2019

ecco said:
I guess you believe that angels wrote down that the serpent tempted Eve who tempted Adam who ate the fruit that got him and Eve thrown out of the Garden of Eden.

I guess you believe that angels wrote down the reason that Cain murdered Abel and the method he used.

Considering the Bible writers obsession with begetting, it's surprising that the angels didn't write down what combinations of Eve and Adam and Abel and Cain and siblings created more and more people.

It's too bad that the angels didn't write down who they gave all this information to.

That is not what I said. (No, I don't believe what you guess I believe.)

YoursTrue · Sep 22, 2019

tas8831 said:
More strawmanning? Or ore ignorance? Not sure.

I do not claim gorillas came before us. The only people that think this is what evolution posits are people that cannot understand how to interpret phylogenetic trees.

Right - so why did you ask your strawman?

I didn't say gorillas did not come before 'us,' as you say.

Evidence For And Against Evolution

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