firedragon
Veteran Member
No. But the OP gentleman believes it. So you should ask him this question.
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Did Muhammad authored the Quran?
- Thread starter Raymann
- Start date
No. But the OP gentleman believes it. So you should ask him this question.
Bob Jones
Prove It!
What kind of oral tradition? The quran hasn't been just any oral tradition. The term in itself doesn't say much.
Raymann
Active Member
Wow, are you alright?
Let me quote my previous response:
"Now again, why do I believe Muhammad was in the cave and why I believe in the hadith?
Just because it is the overwhelming consensus that that is how it happened, no other reason."
Are you having a problem understanding my English?
I think that is a pretty clear response to your questions.
I haven't read many hadith so no I don't believe in all the hadith.
Isn't Sahir Bukhari's collection of Hadith some of the most trusted among the Islamic Scholars?
That Hadith is found on Sahir Bukhari's collection.
So you read all of the commentary and learned nothing? How is that even possible?
Then why don't you believe in bukhari and the quran if you believe in overwhelming consensus?
Raymann
Active Member
This is getting really weird now.
My OP is based on the Quran and a Sahir Bukhari hadith so I am not the one who doesn't believe in the Quran and Bukhari.
You are misinterpreting what you are reading.
Muhammad was a merchant, which means that he had at the very least a strong incentive to learn to write the basic numerals before he ever considered a career as a prophet.
And while I understand that the traditions that insist on claiming that he ever was and remained fully illiterate are persistent and influential, nonetheless they do not sound particularly believable. He was active as a prophet for about 23 years, and for much of that time was surrounded by people who definitely could read and write and considered him the prophet of God. If he truly never learned to read, it not out of lack of access to potential teachers and certainly not because they did not want to help him.
And I think that we can all agree that he expected or at least hoped that the Qur'an would be remembered and read for many generations. It would be truly amazing if he did not have at least a modicum of desire to learn read a work so closely tied to his own memory. And maybe that is why so many insist that he would not; that helps in presenting him as a not fully human personage, someone beyond the normal urges of everyday people.
Moz
Religion. A pox on all their Houses.
HI
I have never understood the excuse that "Only the super elite had an education. " and therefore writing was somehow a rare phenonenom in the early Islamic world,
That is such crap. By 642ce the moslems had conquered TWO thousand year old HIGHLY literate empires and absorbed a highly educated public service that was expert in copying, without errors, writings in multiple languages.
It is clear from the account of Jerusalems capture that the educated were left in place ,if they chose to stay, and were used by the incoming masters as functionaries, transaltors and notaries.The lakmid and Ghassanid arabs, that were the shocktroops of the conquest, were highly literate and "civilised" through their many years as mercenaries for the romans and Persians.
The only excuse for there being little written evidence of anything Islamic before the mid 700's is because there was nothing particularly islamic to record about the first few decades of the conquest and the foundation stories of the faith were later imperial constructions to make Islam seem more seperate from the religions that it so obviously arose from.
Peace
firedragon
Veteran Member
Ah. So the overwhelming consensus is also to believe in many other Hadiths. Im not gonna give you examples because there's too many. Do you believe all of them?
And to honour your question about Sahih Buhari, no, no one considers all of his collections and every hadith as authentic. He is only a collector according to the most extreme believers of Ahadith.
But its unique to see a critic like you believe in the hadith so fiercely.
hi,
if this Hadith is correct then it will certainly raise questions about the truthiness of the prophet-hood of Muhhammad (s).
However as Shia Muslim we reject this Hadith in the same manner that we reject many of the Sunni Hadiths.
Then it can be proved logically that this Hadith is wrong.
here are some evidences:
1. Muslims believe that Muhammad was not a normal human, since his birth miracles happened to him. and many of Judeo-Christian scholars recognized him since his childhood as the coming prophet.
2. Since his childhood he was supported by some kind of angel like creature called Rooh-al-Quds. This can be translated as the holy-ghost, but this should not be confused withy the Holy-Ghost in Christianity.
3. Anybody who would dedicate himself to truly study Islam, would conclude that the Quran and its related Islamic teachings can't be made up by Muhammad.
4. It is clearly that Muhammad believed in himself as a true messenger. Since the Muslim were weak and very small in number, and were persecuted by the Meccans, Muhammad prophesized that they will defeat the Romans and Persians.
These are just quick evidences, more can be easily found.
It’s a beautiful feeling to be free from prejudice and respect all religions. All who teach this concept are bringing our war torn world closer to peace. It leads to brotherhood and I always feel welcome by you because you have this enlightened understanding that we are all one.
Yes I forgot people do have visions and dreams. One example I know of is Tahirih one of the first disciples of the Bab. She never met Him personally but in a dream after which she accepted Him.
The disciples of Christ also had visions of Moses and God on Mount Tabor. We can all experience these things but not all of them are necessarily from God.
Hello. You make some good points and I can see the dilemma many have. I believe that the Islam taught by Muhammad and the Quran is vastly different from the Islam taught by the religious leaders of today who have a vested interest in power and wealth which God doesn’t have. All religions have their spring, summer, autumn and winter when, after time, they become just an outward semblance of the spiritual truth they once taught.
That’s why religions are renewed from time to time and each religion has prophecies Of it’s own renewal in the future because a quality of this world is that all things decay including religion.
So for Christians it is the second coming when ‘all things will be made new. For Buddhists, Maitreya Buddha will appear, for Zoroastrian, Shah Bahrain the Saviour, for Jews Messiah Ben David and for Muslims the Great Announcement.
Krishna said that when religion decays He descends from millennium to millennium to renew religion and destroy wickedness.
In reality there is only one religion evolving over time but as the new Teacher or Educator was not accepted by the previous religions then divisions occurred. If for example if all Jews had accepted Jesus then there would only have remained one religion of God and if all Hindus and accepted Buddha, Jesus and Muhammad all would have been of one faith and so on. But religious leaders carved out their fiefdoms and rejected the new Messenger to maintain their power and wealth so divisions in humanity occurred.
Now is the time of our maturation when we can view the entire planet as one home and all human beings as one family so these invisible barriers and prejudices can be overcome through knowledge and education.
Instead of a ‘we’, religions are seeing the world in an us vs them perspective so they are a cause of conflict and wars. Only when religions mature to accept each other as equals can there be peace.
Bob Jones
Prove It!
I learned alot. Just about every other page was a reference to one of his wives or girlfriend having their monthly period. Due to political/fascist correctness,that is all I will say.
Raymann
Active Member
Well I think you're exaggerating a bit here, I don't believe in this hadith fiercely, I always use the general consensus as a strong indicator to figure out the logical path to the truth.
That hadith is found in the collection of Sahih Bukhari who according to my research is one of the two most trustworthy collectors of authentic hadith in the Sunni Muslim world.
Of course, if you are a Shia then I'm not sure how trustworthy you consider Sahih Bukhari's collection of hadith.
Sahih Bukhari completed the collection of Hadith by 846 AD which means 214 years after Muhammad's death.
You insisted that this hadith dated 700 years after the death of Muhammad.
How do you explain that?
To answer your question I don't believe in all Hadith, as a matter of fact, I only know very few of them but if they are considered authentic by the majority of Muslims then that's where I place my bet.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Sure. But you said you believe that hadith. Your whole opening post post was on the belief that this story about Muhammed being in the cave is as you said "you believe".
Now you are saying I am a Shia which I am not, and is irrelevant to my question about " why you believe this story".
Of course you dont believe inn all hadith. Anyone knows that. The question why you believe in this particular hadith. If you dont believe inn all, why would you cherry pick this one to "believe". Maybe you should revisit your opening post. And you have said that you believe it because its "considered authentic by the majority of Muslims then that's where I place my bet." which is strange because you believe in one hadith because a lot of Muslims believe its true.
SO do you believe in everything Muslims believe? Or just one particular story alone? Why do you pick this particular story from all the other stories that "Muslims believe"? Whats so special?
Phaedrus
Active Member
Raymann
Active Member
Obviously not, I don't believe Allah exists.
The whole point of this thread is believing something that no Muslims believe.
All Muslims believe in Allah and its messenger and I don't.
What we have in common is that we share the same information and scriptures.
I have to read the Quran and some Hadith in order to establish my point.
I cannot invent stories, I can read the scriptures and find curiosities that maybe other people have overlooked and wonder about it.
My point is based on facts that can be proven by reading the scriptures (Quran and Hadith).
No I didn't say you are a Shia.
I said that the majority of Sunni Muslims trust Sahih Bukhari Hadith but IF YOU ARE A SHIA (which I don't know if you are) then you maybe don't trust Sahih Bukhari Hadith like them.
The question is (since you insist on that hadith).
What reason do you have to believe that hadith is not authentic or the story in it is not true?
How about being 700 years old?
firedragon
Veteran Member
Honestly, you never know. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't.
the verses inn the Quran that says Ummi naby, could easily mean "Gentile prophet" if one is to stick to an English word like that. Or "One who wasn't brought up with scripture in their teachings". Thats what Ummi means.