The Ideological Shift in America

usfan said:

...I don't think I'm arguing that, at all. I had a point about crime increasing, as relative morality replaced a sense of absolute, but that is not essential to the point of ideological shift. It merely illustrates the point.

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It's not essential to the point but it illustrates the point? I can't make sense of that.

You wrote: "Crime rates were historically low during the Christian era, but have steadily grown in the Progressive era." If this premise is false, it doesn't "illustrate" your point, it contradicts it -- and your premise is indeed false. Here are a couple of authorities supporting my claim:

• Oxford sociologist Manuel Eisner's study persuasively demonstrated a long-term pattern of declining homicide rates across Europe over 800 years.

• Harvard psychologist Steven Pinker makes a well-documented case for moral progress in his book History and the Decline of Human Violence. A brief summary of his argument can also be heard on his TED Talks video: The Surprising Decline of Violence.

..and i don't see 'humans', treating each other better than in the past, at all. Oppression, exploitation, and brutality is as rampant as ever. We just have better methods of killing each other.

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You are not alone. The notion that we humans are declining morally is very popular -- but wrong. The opposite is true. It's a measurement problem with five deceptive factors involved. If you find the time, check out this link to my thread:

Global Harmony is Inevitable

Those Woodrow Wilson quotes are so particular to an unquestionable leader of Southern Presbyterianism. Being a man taking the Whole Nation with him on the course of being One Nation, is a Progressive. What, Charles Darwin just wrote the thing. Lets not attribute the phrase Darwinians or anything.

And yet this man's Fascinated by the same short era I'm fascinated with the PROGRESSIVE Eisenhower. PROGRESSIVE Eisenhower formed your Progressive Civil Religion. No support can be seen anywhere as you the taxpayer, see anything beyond it.

"And I should like to assure you, my Islamic friends, that under the American Constitution, under American tradition, and in American hearts, this Center, this place of worship, is just as welcome as could be a similar edifice of any other religion. Indeed, America would fight with her whole strength for your right to have here your own church and worship according to your own conscience. This concept is indeed a part of America, and without that concept we would be something else than what we are.

Without God there could be no American form of government, nor an American way of life. Recognition of the Supreme Being is the first, the most basic, expression of Americanism. Thus, the founding fathers of America saw it, and thus with God's help, it will continue to be.

The same day I saw my first horror camp, I visited every nook and cranny. I felt it my duty to be in a position from then on to testify about these things in case there ever grew up at home the belief or assumption that the stories of Nazi brutality were just propaganda.

Neither a wise nor a brave man lies down on the tracks of history to wait for the train of the future to run over him."

Dwight Eisenhower framed an argument of the history of Americans to impose dictatorially upon every child in America, you keep outlining, a Progressive's stance on children. They're going to remove Andrew Jackson soon aren't they from currency or publicity? When he moves the Indians in America for their lack of Christian Character? When some thousands of savages shouldn't impede the approach of happy millions? That will no longer be Celebrated in the Same Denomination. He shot down the previous denomination. His opposite direction Pretender is the PCUSA.

MikeDwight said:

"And I should like to assure you, my Islamic friends, that under the American Constitution, under American tradition, and in American hearts, this Center, this place of worship, is just as welcome as could be a similar edifice of any other religion. Indeed, America would fight with her whole strength for your right to have here your own church and worship according to your own conscience. This concept is indeed a part of America, and without that concept we would be something else than what we are.

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We are not that America, anymore (if we ever were). We would no longer fight for this right, and I doubt that we ever really would have.

Father Heathen said:

But you do owe them thanks for making Trump as POTUS possible.

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I think it has more to do with the advances in technology and science as they're just proving that religion, at least from a mythological point of view, has incrementally become more and more irrelevant as time progresses. People are slowly waking up , which is a good thing .


My thoughts on the political side of things is there's enough religion to go around for both, for which the political affiliations really benefit little if at all. In case of traditionalist and progressives it really just boils down to the proverb that water typically takes the least path of resistance.

PureX said:

We are not that America, anymore (if we ever were). We would no longer fight for this right, and I doubt that we ever really would have.

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I think if this country were to go full-blown Communist, people will just throw their hands up and go, "There's nothing we can do about it".

"The couch is still comfortable , the TV welcoming, and the Doritos are sweet and crunchy".

Subduction Zone said:

It appears that you do not like reality.

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You might want to take a look at this graph of historical homocide rates in the US from this site: based on the book Made In America: Notes on American Life From American History.

usfan said:

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That is a little bit better.

usfan said:

In the 1950s:
1. 'In God We Trust' was added to currency.
2. 'Under God' added to pledge of allegiance, and recited by school children.
3. Prayer was common and encouraged in school, govt, and other social gatherings.

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You referred to indoctrination elsewhere. This is what indoctrination looks like - mindless repetition without argument or evidence, also the definition of propaganda. "In God we trust" Not all of us, and repeating that won't change my mind.

Incidentally, even as a schoolboy, I rejected that nonsense. Does one have to believe that he trusts a god and is under one to be an American? In "God" they trust? Count me out. I'm an atheist, so I guess I'm not an American. No problem. I don't need to root for any team in the patriotism game.

usfan said:

The transition to Progressivism in the 1960s:
5. Evolution was allowed to be taught, then grew through judicial activism until it became the exclusively taught belief about origins.

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Evolution was "allowed" to be taught? LOL. Who's the indoctrinator here We're secular humanists, and we advocate for academic standards in education, that is, reason applied to evidence - not what occurs in Sunday school and from pulpits.

usfan said:

I welcome any thoughts, comments, or rebuttals to this outline.

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Rebut what? Did you make an argument? If so, what was it's conclusion (this never gets a cogent answer)?

This is just another one of your many threads attempting to demean modern, secular values in favor of a religion that just doesn't work and is being increasingly rejected in the West, America being painfully far behind as we see here yet again.

But as also your usual track record, you have the entire thread rejecting your revisionist history. Your faith-based zealotry prevents you from thinking clearly. Only you can't see that. They say that when three people at a party tell you that you are drunk, don't drive home. The whole thread is telling you that.

Yeah, I know, nobody is allowed to comment on your posting behavior or patterns of thought, but as usual, they are the thread. You make no case or argument. You simply believe by faith and despite the evidence to the contrary that the world was better with more religion in it. It was not. That's who hangs and burns witches if you let them. Secularization and democritization of government wrenched that power from the church, hopefully forever. Thank God says this atheist. Does anybody believe that if the church had the power to kill blasphemers, heretics, "witches," or atheists, that they wouldn't?

usfan said:

But the education system was in the tank for marxist darwinism, & the goal of a godless world 'democracy.'

I

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Communists can be any religion. There is Christian Communism.

It Aint Necessarily So said:

You referred to indoctrination elsewhere. This is what indoctrination looks like - mindless repetition without argument or evidence, also the definition of propaganda. "In God we trust" Not all of us, and repeating that won't change my mind.

Incidentally, even as a schoolboy, I rejected that nonsense. Does one have to believe that he trusts a god and is under one to be an American? In "God" they trust? Count me out. I'm an atheist, so I guess I'm not an American. No problem. I don't need to root for any team in the patriotism game.



Evolution was "allowed" to be taught? LOL. Who's the indoctrinator here We're secular humanists, and we advocate for academic standards in education, that is, reason applied to evidence - not what occurs in Sunday school and from pulpits.



Rebut what? Did you make an argument? If so, what was it's conclusion (this never gets a cogent answer)?

This is just another one of your many threads attempting to demean modern, secular values in favor of a religion that just doesn't work and is being increasingly rejected in the West, America being painfully far behind as we see here yet again.

But as also your usual track record, you have the entire thread rejecting your revisionist history. Your faith-based zealotry prevents you from thinking clearly. Only you can't see that. They say that when three people at a party tell you that you are drunk, don't drive home. The whole thread is telling you that.

Yeah, I know, nobody is allowed to comment on your posting behavior or patterns of thought, but as usual, they are the thread. You make no case or argument. You simply believe by faith and despite the evidence to the contrary that the world was better with more religion in it. It was not. That's who hangs and burns witches if you let them. Secularization and democritization of government wrenched that power from the church, hopefully forever. Thank God says this atheist. Does anybody believe that if the church had the power to kill blasphemers, heretics, "witches," or atheists, that they wouldn't?

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Ya ya ya well, Eventually you have to be like see I'm for that team over in this geographic area, you know some sort of patriotism. "In God we Trust" is specifically in the "Star Spangled Banner" so they want to put that one on top of "Hail Columbia" as our new motto. The Pledge of Allegiance foreswears you from Confederate Allegiance. Your patriotism is a flag, that stands for a singular nation. Not the UK then, watch all the old movies, 3 nations form a country? Or However the hell they want to make up that junk. I'm not trying to find out UK Junk.

usfan said:

Thanks for the reasoned rebuttal..

I don't think I'm arguing that, at all. I had a point about crime increasing, as relative morality replaced a sense of absolute, but that is not essential to the point of ideological shift. It merely illustrates the point.

..and i don't see 'humans', treating each other better than in the past, at all. Oppression, exploitation, and brutality is as rampant as ever. We just have better methods of killing each other.

Thanks for the evidenced rebuttal..

Not salami?

..whatever. i had points, with historical trends to illustrate. It is an analysis of history, not a pejorative toward enemies.. but some people see enemies everywhere!

No problem. This is just an opinion piece, based on my observations and analysis of events over the last century or so..

..so you believe and assert..

Ah! Good fallacious reply!

Well, that destroyed my arguments!

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I don't understand why you do not like my suggestion of joining the Taliban. Your ideology is a perfect match. Theocratic authoritarian revisionist.

Subduction Zone said:

when you make such poor OP's that is all that it takes to refute it.

Try again and see if you can accurately represent the views of those that oppose you.

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I have never read the history he is claiming. Not for this country. Not any other either. I don't even know what Marxist Darwinism is. No one does. It is made up.

joe1776 said:

You are not alone. The notion that we humans are declining morally is very popular -- but wrong. The opposite is true. It's a measurement problem with five deceptive factors involved.

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I have not proposed that 'humans are declining, morally'. I have analyzed the shift in values, and the basis for morality. We have been transitioning from an Enlightenment based ideology of Natural Law, human equality, Reason, and a belief in a God centered view of the universe, to a belief in atheistic naturalism, or a distant, uninvolved, relative morality based ideology. Elitism, central Rule, & authoritarian mandates are, and have been, slowly replacing the foundational principles from the Enlightenment, that this country was founded upon.

Thirza Fallen said:

Communists can be any religion. There is Christian Communism.

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..sorta..

The labels can remain, but the underlying ideology is completely different.

Marxist Darwinist principles, that are at the root of Progressivism, have become mainstream in most of the major xtian denominations. The current pope is openly sympathetic and supportive of Marxism. Most religious institutions, like the rest of human institutions, are devoted to, and run by, dedicated progressives.

This does not change the original, historical belief system that Christianity was based upon. It is, in fact, another departure from historical Christian orthodoxy.

usfan said:

I have not proposed that 'humans are declining, morally'. I have analyzed the shift in values, and the basis for morality. We have been transitioning from an Enlightenment based ideology of Natural Law, human equality, Reason, and a belief in a God centered view of the universe, to a belief in atheistic naturalism, or a distant, uninvolved, relative morality based ideology. Elitism, central Rule, & authoritarian mandates are, and have been, slowly replacing the foundational principles from the Enlightenment, that this country was founded upon.

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You make a terrible assumption. You assume that a belief in God is "enlightened" when it appears to be the other way around.

One should not use honorifics for one's own beliefs and pejoratives for the beliefs of others unless one can support those terms. For example if was "Reason" that is to the theory of evolution and an avoidance of reason that led to creationism. I can support that claim. You, not so much.

It Aint Necessarily So said:

Yeah, I know, nobody is allowed to comment on your posting behavior or patterns of thought, but as usual, they are the thread. You make no case or argument. You simply believe by faith and despite the evidence to the contrary that the world was better with more religion in it. It was not. That's who hangs and burns witches if you let them. Secularization and democritization of government wrenched that power from the church, hopefully forever. Thank God says this atheist. Does anybody believe that if the church had the power to kill blasphemers, heretics, "witches," or atheists, that they wouldn't?

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Personal, ad hom based replies do not rebut my points, or support yours. They are logical fallacies, and are not rational arguments.

Yes, it is pointless to remind you of this, as it is your MO. But your obsession with me, personally, is a disruptive presence in any discussion.

usfan said:

I have not proposed that 'humans are declining, morally'. I have analyzed the shift in values, and the basis for morality. We have been transitioning from an Enlightenment based ideology of Natural Law, human equality, Reason, and a belief in a God centered view of the universe, to a belief in atheistic naturalism, or a distant, uninvolved, relative morality based ideology. Elitism, central Rule, & authoritarian mandates are, and have been, slowly replacing the foundational principles from the Enlightenment, that this country was founded upon.

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After the Enlightenment, a Deist view became popular, not an interventionist view. Deism might as well be atheism after "creation" happened. I sure wish conservative would stop being so authoritarian. They want to replace our laws with Bible laws.

usfan said:

..sorta..

The labels can remain, but the underlying ideology is completely different.

Marxist Darwinist principles, that are at the root of Progressivism, have become mainstream in most of the major xtian denominations. The current pope is openly sympathetic and supportive of Marxism. Most religious institutions, like the rest of human institutions, are devoted to, and run by, dedicated progressives.

This does not change the original, historical belief system that Christianity was based upon. It is, in fact, another departure from historical Christian orthodoxy.

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The Pope is supportive of Socialism, not Communism. Way different. Sadly, the Fundamentalist Movement totally departed from orthodox Christianity. So far from Jesus' teachings now.

Subduction Zone said:

You make a terrible assumption. You assume that a belief in God is "enlightened" when it appears to be the other way around.
One should not use honorifics for one's own beliefs and pejoratives for the beliefs of others unless one can support those terms.

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The 'Enlightenment', is an historical fact. It is not a made up term..

Locke, Montesquieu.. even Jefferson and others of the American founders were influenced by, and steeped in, Enlightenment principles.

That so many today are ignorant of the principles and ideals from the Enlightenment is a testament to the successful Indoctrination and revisionism from Progressivism.

Natural Law, human equality, the right to life, liberty, and property are central tenets of Enlightenment thought. Those things are contrary to the mandates of progressive belief.