Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe yo are suffering from a delusion. There is no way I can lose.
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Why Was Jesus Necessary?
- Thread starter Skwim
- Start date
I believe yo are suffering from a delusion. There is no way I can lose.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe the article missed the most important one. He died so He could rise again.
Bear Wild
Well-Known Member
Just like the phoenix bird and all of the other myths about rebirth. I had a feeling the phoenix bird was a true story. And around the time of spring equinox and the time that many "pagan" cultures celebrate rebirth. Definitely an important reason for that time of the year.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Jesus died because the Romans considered him a political threat. That was the ONLY reason he was executed.
I have never been much of a Christian, but I seem to recall a vague notion that Jesus was supposed to set a good example and/or a source of inspiration for people to find better motivation. Presumably that would happen to some extent while he was alive, and perhaps a bit more when he was martirized.
The implication seems to be that God could be more convincing (at least in those circunstances) when expressed through Jesus.
Skwim
Veteran Member
And as I pointed out in my OP,
" . . . then why didn't he make the playing field level, where each and every person on earth had an equal chance? Why were only some apprised of god's requirement?---many, many never having gotten or getting the message. And not everyone is mentally capable of grasping the truth of god's test, yet they, along with the ignorant, have been left out of god's forgiveness. Others, such as myself, god has simply failed to convince; and whose fault is that; a puny mortal mind besting the best efforts of god? AND, as an omniscient being, god would be well aware of all these imminent failures. He knew that persons X, Y, and Z would never be on the receiving end of his forgiveness, but instead end up in hell or wherever. So, why even allow such poor unfortunate souls be born? Truthfully, as the story is laid out, god comes off as quite the heartless monster."
.
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IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Because complete forgiveness, which means reconciliation, requires repentance.
Think about it for a second. Pretend someone has betrayed you in a major way. Do you just forgive them if they don't come to you and pretend like nothing has happened? No you don't. In fact, even if they give you a half hearted apology you don't. In order to reconcile the relationship, to make it whole again, you look for several things:
1. That they realize that they hurt you deeply and why.
2. That they hurt because they have hurt you.
3. They do what they can to undo the wrong.
3. You have a reasonable expectation that it won't happen again.
Why would God expect any different?
Skwim
Veteran Member
Fine, but as I just pointed out to LuisDantas, it's hardly a fair-minded and just requirement:
God certainly didn't he make the playing field level where each and every person on earth had an equal chance. Why were only some apprised of god's requirement?---many, many never having gotten or are getting the message. And not everyone is mentally capable of grasping the truth and significance of god's test, yet they, along with the ignorant, have been left out of god's forgiveness. Others, such as myself, god has simply failed to convince. And whose fault is that; a puny mortal mind besting the best efforts of god? AND, as an omniscient being, god would be well aware of all these imminent failures. He knew that persons X, Y, and Z would never be on the receiving end of his forgiveness, but instead end up in hell or wherever. So, why even allow such poor unfortunate souls be born? Truthfully, as the story is laid out, god comes off as quite the heartless monster."
"Dear IndigoChild5559,
Sorry to inform you, but your soon to be born grandchild will eventually end up in Hell no matter what you wish or do.
(signed)
Your compassionate, but heartless monster of a diety,
God"
Sorry to inform you, but your soon to be born grandchild will eventually end up in Hell no matter what you wish or do.
(signed)
Your compassionate, but heartless monster of a diety,
God"
.
whirlingmerc
Well-Known Member
There are many reasons. Jesus pleaded with God if there was any other way.... there was not
John Piper lists 50 reasons Jesus died
the eBook is below
https://content.wtsbooks.com/shopify/pdf_links/9781581347883.pdf
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
1) Forgiveness is an act of right relationship. To offer or receive forgiveness is to give one’s heart away.
2) Human sacrifice isn’t necessary. Substitutionary Atonement is bad theology that’s been forced upon us for far too long. The cross is nothing more or less than a showing of the cost of love.
3) “Worth” isn’t at issue. Forgiveness is for the human community — not for individuals.
4) We have no need to “prove” anything. Right relationship is offered to all.
Only if one buys in to the typical, evangelical model is any of this a problem.
Bob the Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
False: What if you "chose" the wrong god?
What then? What if the REAL GOD™ , requires someone who pays attention to Reality?
And refuses to accept superstitious nonsense from ancient books written by Bronze Age Goat Herders, who were confused where the sun went a Night?
You would be in SO MUCH trouble!
Bob the Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
So there was no actual sacrifice of any merit?
Jesus was, at worst, mildly inconvenienced?
How is that a "sacrifice"? Jesus gave up a weekend for your sins?
What?
Bob the Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
Why? I can easily choose to forgive someone, whether they even realize it or not. That makes me far more powerful and capable than this god you imagine is.
And that ought to be impossible! Yet... here we are... I can forgive when this god of yours is incapable...
I expect superior workmanship from anything called "God"-- and yours?
Isn't even as capable as a mere human...
Ouroboros
Coincidentia oppositorum
You can only solve magical problems with magic.
Anyway, my understanding is that sin, the stain on the human soul, was resolved with a sacrificial lamb in the old testament, but it was only temporary. The people of Israel had to constantly go to the temple and sacrifice these lambs to get on God's good side. So how could you make it more sustainable? You need something better than a lamb. what would be better than a lamb? A human, and an innocent human at that. What's even better than that? A God human. What's better than that? God's son as a human. So there. The bestest sacrificial lamb that would trump all other lamb offerings would be to have God's own son made into human and then sacrificed. It's a bit like Lord of the Rings. You can't destroy the evil ring in any fire. It had to be a bad-a** fire.
Bob the Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
You can only solve magical problems with magic.
Anyway, my understanding is that sin, the stain on the human soul, was resolved with a sacrificial lamb in the old testament, but it was only temporary. The people of Israel had to constantly go to the temple and sacrifice these lambs to get on God's good side. So how could you make it more sustainable? You need something better than a lamb. what would be better than a lamb? A human, and an innocent human at that. What's even better than that? A God human. What's better than that? God's son as a human. So there. The bestest sacrificial lamb that would trump all other lamb offerings would be to have God's own son made into human and then sacrificed. It's a bit like Lord of the Rings. You can't destroy the evil ring in any fire. It had to be a bad-a** fire.
A case of Celestial One Upmanship?
Actually, I think your analysis is quite good.
Ouroboros
Coincidentia oppositorum
Then maybe I'll make a case for why it had to be a blood sacrifice later.
BSM1
What? Me worry?
The Urantia Book goes into the subject in great detail. You might be surprised how much sense it makes in comparison.
Bob the Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
Skwim
Veteran Member
Honestly, it wouldn't take much effort to write a book that made more sense than the Bible.
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Ouroboros
Coincidentia oppositorum
Lol! Sure. I believe the vampire symbol is related though.Vampires?
Early humans realized, when you bleed you stop existing. Your soul/spirit is gone. Gone with the blood. The mystery of life, soul, you being you, it's hidden in the blood. By drinking blood, you absorb the life force, energy, insight etc from the other person. You become a part of him/her.
But also, giving gifts to the spirits (gods) started with giving them food (wild animals eat at night) and the gods receive the gifts (they're gone). Then valuables, but then someone realized that gods are spirits and really should get spiritual gifts, so why not give them souls? Animal souls as food, human souls as slaves, and also wind, smell, smoke is a form of spiritual thing, so burning herbs giving of pleasant smells so the gods could smell it, using fire to burn things to transform them to spiritual things, etc. But blood of a human is of course the ultimate and highest form of gift to a spirit.