Did Muhammad authored the Quran?

Raymann said:

None of them are part of this discussion.
We are challenging Muhammad on this thread.
Did you read post #8
What do you think about it?

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And friend @sooda may kindly find my response vide my post #13 in the thread, please.
G-d claimed that He had authored Quran. And there is no other revealed scripture who has such claim from G-d.

Regards
_____________
[75:17]لَا تُحَرِّکۡ بِہٖ لِسَانَکَ لِتَعۡجَلَ بِہٖ ﴿ؕ۱۷﴾
Move not thy tongue with this revelation that thou mayest hasten to preserve it.
[75:18]اِنَّ عَلَیۡنَا جَمۡعَہٗ وَ قُرۡاٰنَہٗ ﴿ۚۖ۱۸﴾
Surely upon Us rests its collection and its recital.
[75:19]فَاِذَا قَرَاۡنٰہُ فَاتَّبِعۡ قُرۡاٰنَہٗ ﴿ۚ۱۹﴾
So when We recite it, then follow thou its recital.
[75:20]ثُمَّ اِنَّ عَلَیۡنَا بَیَانَہٗ ﴿ؕ۲۰﴾
Then upon Us rests the expounding thereof.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 75: Al-Qiyamah

sooda said:

Muhammed couldn't read and write.

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I know

Raymann said:

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough or you're just trying to be difficult?
They are attributed to Allah, communicated by Angel Gabriel to Muhammad and revealed to the humans around him by Muhammad.
Is that clear enough?

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Oh, sure, but that's false.

Wasp said:

Oh, sure, but that's false.

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What is false? What's the problem?
Do they charge your internet use by the number of letters you write?
Would it be too hard for you to answer a question and follow it with an explanation just for the sake of keeping the conversation fluid?

Raymann said:

What is false? What's the problem?
Do they charge your internet use by the number of letters you write?
Would it be too hard for you to answer a question and follow it with an explanation just for the sake of keeping the conversation fluid?

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What you said is false. What you said was

Raymann said:

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough or you're just trying to be difficult?
They are attributed to Allah, communicated by Angel Gabriel to Muhammad and revealed to the humans around him by Muhammad.
Is that clear enough?

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It is revealed by Allah and taught by Muhammad.

Wasp said:

It is revealed by Allah and taught by Muhammad.

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Semantics.

Anyway, the more likely scenario was Muhammed collecting info during his travels and then releasing a new revelation.
There was that time when 3 of his men and one of his wives accused Aisha of committing Adultery.
Is appears that in one of Muhammad's expeditions Aisha stayed back and later showed up with one of Muhammad's slaves.
Muhammad was in total distress and in total shame.
To be a cuckold was not the image Muhammad was ready to withstand.
Somehow and miraculously Allah came to his rescue with a new revelation.
The new revelation established the rule on Adultery.
From that day on in order to accuse a woman of Adultery 4 witnesses are needed and to make matters more difficult they need to be of upright character (meaning not sinful).
Can this get more ridiculous?
Apparently the witnesses need to see the actual penetration.
God would be ashamed that this rule is attributed to him.
See, Muhammad couldn't stand the shame of having Aisha being accused of Adultery so this was a way around it.
Not a very good one but this way at least his ego survived for the moment.
Today this rule is probably the most ridiculous rule you would ever hear about and its creation is attributed to a God (Allah).

Raymann said:

When you read about the history of Muhammad and Islam inevitably you are going to stop at certain points, scratch your head and think, wait a minute, that doesn't seem right.
That doesn't seem, right? or should I have said that doesn't seem convincing?
It is my understanding that Muhammad received the revelations from an unidentified voice while in the cave.
Muhammad didn't know who was the one giving him the revelations and the voice giving the revelations didn't identify himself.
Muhammad told Khadijah about it and both told what had happened to Khadijah's cousin Wahraka ibn Nawfaal.
Wahraka ibn Nawfaal was a converted Christian so obviously he knew a lot about Christianity and the Gospels. He knew about the Christian "Angel Gabriel".
Basically Wahraka ibn Nawfaal put in Muhammad's head that he was a prophet, that the one giving him the revelations was Angel Gabriel and that the revelations were from Allah.
Is it possible that Muhammad took advantage of the situation and ran with it?
Is it possible that Muhammad is the real author of the Quran?
There are many revelations that are very suspicious and seem to be addressed with the sole purpose of benefitting Muhammad.
Why didn't Angel Gabriel identified himself and explained the revelations were from Allah?
Anyway, this is all my personal thinking and my personal reasons why I have a problem believing in Islam.

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I believe the Qu'ran is from God but I am less familiar with historic facts about its origin.

1213 said:

That would explain why Quran says we should believe what Jesus says:

…The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah … …believe in Allah and His messengers...
Surat An-Nisā' 4:171
Surah An-Nisa [4:171]

Only thing I wonder is, why don’t Muslims believe Jesus, even though that is what Quran says they should.

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I believe they developed a you vs us mentality just a many Christians do.

Wasp said:

, we believe in Jesus as a prophet.

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I believe if you really believe He is a prophet then you should believe Him when He says He is God.

sooda said:

All the Muslims I have ever talked with believed in Jesus they just don't believe God had a human child... and they don't believe in original sin or blood sacrifice.

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So, are you saying they believe what God’s prophet Jesus says?

Wasp said:

, we believe in Jesus as a prophet.

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So, you believe what Jesus says in the Bible?

1213 said:

So, you believe what Jesus says in the Bible?

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Or texts not included in the final Bible canon?

Raymann said:

When you read about the history of Muhammad and Islam inevitably you are going to stop at certain points, scratch your head and think, wait a minute, that doesn't seem right.
That doesn't seem, right? or should I have said that doesn't seem convincing?
It is my understanding that Muhammad received the revelations from an unidentified voice while in the cave.
Muhammad didn't know who was the one giving him the revelations and the voice giving the revelations didn't identify himself.
Muhammad told Khadijah about it and both told what had happened to Khadijah's cousin Wahraka ibn Nawfaal.
Wahraka ibn Nawfaal was a converted Christian so obviously he knew a lot about Christianity and the Gospels. He knew about the Christian "Angel Gabriel".
Basically Wahraka ibn Nawfaal put in Muhammad's head that he was a prophet, that the one giving him the revelations was Angel Gabriel and that the revelations were from Allah.
Is it possible that Muhammad took advantage of the situation and ran with it?
Is it possible that Muhammad is the real author of the Quran?
There are many revelations that are very suspicious and seem to be addressed with the sole purpose of benefitting Muhammad.
Why didn't Angel Gabriel identified himself and explained the revelations were from Allah?
Anyway, this is all my personal thinking and my personal reasons why I have a problem believing in Islam.

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I think the real answer to this question if anyone sincerely seeks it is that if it was fabricated then it can be reproduced & replicated very easily. So as the Quran says ‘produce it’s like’.

That about 1.7 billion people use the Quran to model their daily lives upon even 1400 years later speaks for itself in my opinion.

If this were just a man made book then any person today should be able to replicate it, convince people to sacrifice their lives for its Cause and eventually win over kings and nations and establish a worldwide following of billions.

To date the only Ones Who have achieved this influence are Figures like Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, and Moses. They arise single handedly, opposed by one and all and despite things like crucifixion, torture, imprisonment and exile, their Cause becomes established all over the world.

We can not deny the influence of the Prophets and Messengers but neither can we replicate Their influence. The majority of the world’s population follows one or another of these Great Beings. And there is only a handful of Them. Krishna, Moses, Buddha, Christ, Zoroaster, Muhammad the Bab and Baha’u’llah being most recent.

It is a phenomenon that cannot be dismissed, replicated or simply explained away as no one has been able to replicate Them or reproduce Their Cause despite claiming They were just ordinary men. They claimed to possess a power from God which to me is much more believable than claims I’ve read here saying They were just charismatic. No one today has seen Jesus or Muhammad yet Their influence is very real as if They were present in the flesh. Their Spirit permeates the universe and influences the entire world even though physically They are not present.

So compose a religion from today’s religions and run with it. Then you’ll get your answer.

Raymann said:

When you read about the history of Muhammad and Islam inevitably you are going to stop at certain points, scratch your head and think, wait a minute, that doesn't seem right.
That doesn't seem, right? or should I have said that doesn't seem convincing?
It is my understanding that Muhammad received the revelations from an unidentified voice while in the cave.
Muhammad didn't know who was the one giving him the revelations and the voice giving the revelations didn't identify himself.
Muhammad told Khadijah about it and both told what had happened to Khadijah's cousin Wahraka ibn Nawfaal.
Wahraka ibn Nawfaal was a converted Christian so obviously he knew a lot about Christianity and the Gospels. He knew about the Christian "Angel Gabriel".
Basically Wahraka ibn Nawfaal put in Muhammad's head that he was a prophet, that the one giving him the revelations was Angel Gabriel and that the revelations were from Allah.
Is it possible that Muhammad took advantage of the situation and ran with it?
Is it possible that Muhammad is the real author of the Quran?
There are many revelations that are very suspicious and seem to be addressed with the sole purpose of benefitting Muhammad.
Why didn't Angel Gabriel identified himself and explained the revelations were from Allah?
Anyway, this is all my personal thinking and my personal reasons why I have a problem believing in Islam.

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Yes, he obviously did give commands based on his own desires. Also Muhammad changes his mind on some things he claimed earlier on. That's why Muslims believe the writings that come last supersede the earlier ones. But honestly the earlier ones were usually the better ones. So we have a real problem.

loverofhumanity said:

I think the real answer to this question if anyone sincerely seeks it is that if it was fabricated then it can be reproduced & replicated very easily. So as the Quran says ‘produce it’s like’.

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Good point. I am convinced the Koran is Divine inspired.

loverofhumanity said:

If this were just a man made book then any person today should be able to replicate it, convince people to sacrifice their lives for its Cause and eventually win over kings and nations and establish a worldwide following of billions.

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IMHO: BUT wartime calls for creativity, so Muhammad also added a few personal verses (even though unable to write or read, he could speak and have others add them).

This does not take away the brilliance of the Divine inspired verses of course. Just a reminder that Muhammad was human also, and a nice challenge to practise discrimination and common sense.

Raymann said:

When you read about the history of Muhammad and Islam inevitably you are going to stop at certain points, scratch your head and think, wait a minute, that doesn't seem right.
That doesn't seem, right? or should I have said that doesn't seem convincing?
It is my understanding that Muhammad received the revelations from an unidentified voice while in the cave.
Muhammad didn't know who was the one giving him the revelations and the voice giving the revelations didn't identify himself.
Muhammad told Khadijah about it and both told what had happened to Khadijah's cousin Wahraka ibn Nawfaal.
Wahraka ibn Nawfaal was a converted Christian so obviously he knew a lot about Christianity and the Gospels. He knew about the Christian "Angel Gabriel".
Basically Wahraka ibn Nawfaal put in Muhammad's head that he was a prophet, that the one giving him the revelations was Angel Gabriel and that the revelations were from Allah.
Is it possible that Muhammad took advantage of the situation and ran with it?
Is it possible that Muhammad is the real author of the Quran?
There are many revelations that are very suspicious and seem to be addressed with the sole purpose of benefitting Muhammad.
Why didn't Angel Gabriel identified himself and explained the revelations were from Allah?
Anyway, this is all my personal thinking and my personal reasons why I have a problem believing in Islam.

Click to expand...

To understand this clearly can respond to these questions the arose from your OP? Please be kind enough to think about it and answer them precisely. That will be great.

1. Why do you believe that Muhammed was in the cave at all when some voice spoke to him? You said you believe it. What is the reason to believe this?
2. How do you make the claim that Gabriel didnt identify himself and explain that it was a revelation from God? Have you read the ahadith you are speaking about or you heard them from someone who didnt give you the full narration?

Thanks.

loverofhumanity said:

We can not deny the influence of the Prophets and Messengers but neither can we replicate Their influence. The majority of the world’s population follows one or another of these Great Beings. And there is only a handful of Them. Krishna, Moses, Buddha, Christ, Zoroaster, Muhammad the Bab and Baha’u’llah being most recent.

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Always difficult to be 100% sure if claims are facts or not. Even if billions believe, all can be wrong (God's speciality is His perfect Leela, Maya; He is well known for this).

ShirdiWiki: Another Leela, true or not?
Sai Baba of Shirdi - Wikipedia
More recent even, you forgot Shirdi Sai Baba (25.000 visiters daily; talking about replication). And said to be Avatar, as Krishna was.

I have to admit the Koran is incredible, especially when compared to what Shirdi left us behind (as written book).

But 1 thing Shirdi emphasized, is to stop criticizing other religions.

Born at almost the same time as Bahaullah (died 1892, Shirdi died 1918), this can be coincidence, but I don't believe this.

Bahaullah (Middle East) was used to improve Islam and Shirdi (India) came to improve Hinduism and Islam (fighting others who's way is the Highway)

Shirdi Sai Baba also condemned distinction based on religion or caste. It remains unclear if he was a Muslim or a Hindu. This, however, was of no consequence to Sai Baba.[5] His teaching combined elements of Hinduism and Islam: he gave the Hindu name Dwarakamayi to the mosque in which he lived,[6] practised both Hindu and Muslim rituals, taught using words and figures that drew from both traditions

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Shirdi Saibaba is now revered as incarnation of Sri Dattatreya and considered as Saguna Brahma by his devotees. He is attributed to be the creator, sustainer and destroyer of this universe by his devotees

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leov said:

it took a few hundred years to complete Koran. I think that "the Cow" was original part. I think the situation was similar to what happened to Abraham and Paul - a revelation. That area was where many Christian heretics, Gnostics of all colors , e.t.c. escaped Roman persecutions.

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You think. Brother, "I think" means "I assume". So you have made assumptions.

loverofhumanity said:

They claimed to possess a power from God which to me is much more believable than claims I’ve read here saying They were just charismati

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True. There are differences. Charismatic, Medium, Messenger, Saint, Prophet and Avatar. But all are special and can be of great help to improve ourselves.

Krishna is said to Be an Avatar (different from picture next to name on RF). That is to me even more believable than claims saying "possess power of God".

loverofhumanity said:

No one today has seen Jesus or Muhammad yet Their influence is very real as if They were present in the flesh

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They do appear to people. So some have seen even. So indeed Their influence is immense.

loverofhumanity said:

Their Spirit permeates the universe and influences the entire world even though physically They are not present.

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They even do materialize when need is there

loverofhumanity said:

So compose a religion from today’s religions and run with it. Then you’ll get your answer

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Agreed.

And also more fun to find out myself by personal experience as compared to "believe" from stories of others you not even hear first hand or second hand

Nowadays most people rely on "Google hand" stories. I can understand they come to the conclusion "God does not exist"