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Brexit in a nutshell

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Based on lies.
Now that we have the facts, we need an informed referendum.
You turn the victim into the perpetrator.

The perpetrator is the EU: they are having convulsions and are terrified by the idea of losing Britain.
But if they were honest and correct they would tell Britain: " how can we do to let you stay? Let us rewrite the treaties and you dictate the terms"

Britain is Britain. It is not Hungary or Portugal...it must be treated with respect and with a privileged treatment.

But since these dishonest, horrific delinquents called Brussels elites are disrespecting UK, NODEAL Brexit is the only solution.
 
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Altfish

Veteran Member
You turn the victim into the perpetrator.

The perpetrator is the EU: they are having convulsions and are terrified by the idea of losing Britain.
But if they were honest and correct they would tell Britain: " how can we do to let you stay? Let us rewrite the treaties and you dictate the terms"

Britain is Britain. It is not Hungary or Portugal...it must be treated with respect and with a privileged treatment.

But since these disgusting, dishonest, horrific delinquents called Brussels elites are disrespecting UK, NODEAL Brexit is the only solution.
Yeah, yeah, yeah ... no facts, just feelings. A bit like religion.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
Since you know facts, speak with me about Juncker and the leaders from other planets, dear;)
He has a plan, he sticks to it, he coordinates, he negotiates, he is professional. I don't agree with him all the time but compared with the shambles that is the UK negotiating team... I know which side I'd rather be on.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
He has a plan, he sticks to it, he coordinates, he negotiates, he is professional. I don't agree with him all the time but compared with the shambles that is the UK negotiating team... I know which side I'd rather be on.
Okay...and who are these leaders from other planets?
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
Okay...and who are these leaders from other planets?
Isn't it interesting, I answer your questions, the rest of the anti-EU brigade don't answer questions.
But when I do answer a question, you ignore the reply and fire off more questions ... sounds a bit like the UK's negotiating team .. a total shambles.
 

Notanumber

A Free Man
The UK would be the land of milk and honey by now if the Remoaners had accepted democracy.

What a waste they really are.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Isn't it interesting, I answer your questions, the rest of the anti-EU brigade don't answer questions.
But when I do answer a question, you ignore the reply and fire off more questions ... sounds a bit like the UK's negotiating team .. a total shambles.
You avoid my uncomfortable questions too..dear;)
 
Yes, the Remain team gave facts - they were labelled as Project Fear

You seriously believe that one side in a complex and highly partisan political debate was completely truthful? If so I have recently acquired some magic beans that you could purchase for a considerable sum of money.

These are from the Independent, not a pro-Brexit shill:

‘Two thirds of British jobs in manufacturing are dependent on demand from Europe’ – Alan Johnson

‘We will need an emergency Budget to restore stability to public finances’ – George Osborne


All the false claims made during the EU referendum campaign

The first one (true figure is around 17%) is arguably much worse than the oft-touted 350 mill for the NHS one.

There seems to be an attitude amongst many Remainers that they are much smarter and more rational, yet most are simply championing an idea rather than a reality.

They love the idea of Europe for ideological reasons as a metaphor for progress, globalism, enlightened tolerance, etc. and Brexit as a metaphor for parochialism, regression, bigotry, etc. without any real attempt to look at these in any depth or consider the complexities of the arguments for the other side.

Hence the idea that people were too stupid the first time round, so there should be a second vote (a "people's vote" as if the 1st one was only open to a shadowy elite).

As you see in this thread and IRL, it's hard for some to even acknowledge that there are any rational, legitimate reasons for favouring Brexit, or view the EU as anything other than a paragon of virtue despite its many, very obvious flaws. This is fandom, not rationality which is the inevitable response of any emotional issue tied to identity such as this one.

Very few people understand the complexities of the economic arguments enough to make a rational judgement on them (other than "Don't know, so better not to take the risk") and no one knows the long term consequences, yet it is frequently stated as close to fact that it will be an unmitigated disaster.

People aren't making the decisions based on evidence, but cherry picking evidence to support their initial belief (as happens on most political issues).

For most people on both sides it's mostly a value judgement: more democratic control or more integration; sense of national identity or sense of international identity, etc.

Theres nothing wrong with this, as we do it all the time, but best recognise it for what it is, rather than fooling yourself that your side really is the lone rational one.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
As you see in this thread and IRL, it's hard for some to even acknowledge that there are any rational, legitimate reasons for favouring Brexit, or view the EU as anything other than a paragon of virtue despite its many, very obvious flaws. This is fandom, not rationality which is the inevitable response of any emotional issue tied to identity such as this one.

Perhaps, but the Leavers tended to use rhetoric and fear more than anything else - even to the extent of dismissing the so-called experts (who were probably better informed) - so how honest were they? It's always easier to drum up support from the less educated than it is to mobilise the thinking minority - since there are so many more of them - and the Boris/Trump types know this.
 
Perhaps, but the Leavers tended to use rhetoric and fear more than anything else - even to the extent of dismissing the so-called experts (who were probably better informed) - so how honest were they? It's always easier to drum up support from the less educated than it is to mobilise the thinking minority - since there are so many more of them - and the Boris/Trump types know this.

Remainers use fear all the time. Both sides rely heavily on emotion.

Why should the 'thinking minority' necessarily support remain anyway? There are legitimate, highly reasonable cases for both sides.

If the experts are economists, then they are right in dismissing them, just as you'd dismiss astrology experts.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
Why should the 'thinking minority' necessarily support remain anyway? There are legitimate, highly reasonable cases for both sides.

I certainly get that impression based on the what I have seen. I doubt one could call the right-wing popular press as appealing to the more thinking. And most of these are all Brexiteers in orientation. I agree that there are positive and negatives to the issue but overall it seems wiser to stay in an organisation giving us sufficient benefits, and where we should be striving to change bits that we don't like, rather than leaving and getting into a worse mess.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
You criticise Boris at every opportunity but you intend to vote for her and her barmpot party.

Where is your moral compass?
I'm voting for a party that does not stop benefits, does not introduce austerity, is not singing the Murdoch songs, has compassion and cares for the deprived and homeless.
 
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