Evidence For And Against Evolution

SA Huguenot said:

So I also told myself when I was an atheist.

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Well, you were correct.

You keep on missing the point. I studied the religions of the world, not to choose one, but to have evidence to condemn them all. Well, I lost the battle with the Bible.

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Not being able to prove something wrong, does not mean that it is correct.

Or do you believe that there is an undetectable dragong following you around everywhere you do?
I'll assume that you don't believe that. I don't have to assume that you can't prove that there is no such dragon following you around. I know you can't do that.

Because, as said already, it's logically impossible to falsify the unfalsifiable.

Unfalsifiable ideas, by the way, are also utterly useless and meaningless. And infinite in number. Being unfalsifiable, is actually a good reason to disbelieve it.

SA Huguenot said:

Now why would you say such a bad thing about me.

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Because it's factually true. You don't accept science at all.

I believe in every thing science observed and described from nature.

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You don't, as you prove in the very next sentence.

I do not believe in Evolution

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See?

, because it is still an unproven theory

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Every single theory in all of science is "unproven".
Be it plate tectonics, atoms, germs, relativity,.... All "unproven". Scientific theories are never considered "proven". Theories can only be supported by evidence or disproven.

You can't prove a theory. You can only disprove it.
Some theories, like evolution and atoms and germs etc, are SO well supported by evidence that it's actually become almost perverse to think they'll ever be overturned.

with a lot of lies concocted by atheists purely to deny God.

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Yes, let's just ignore the millions of christians who work in science related to evolutionary biology one way or the other, who prove that wrong every day.

Let's, in the process, also tell lies about atheists.

This is the only difference between you an I.

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I really really doubt it.

Let's test it, shall we?
So, do you think Noah's flood literally happened? A global flood that lasted a year and covered all the mountains, with the ark and the animals and all that jazz?

I do not believe in the fairy tale of evolution.
You know, the one that teaches the frog prince.
Ha, Ha, a frog that turned into a man.
Now that is rubbish at best.

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Right, right....

Now, a man being fashioned from dirt and the woman from his rib who were then immortal and put in some magical garden with magical trees bearing fruit they couldn't touch, and then put a talking snake in their knowing in advance that it'll convince them to eat from the magical fruit. Then when they, as expected, eat from the fruit, they are lose their immortality and are condemned to suffering and the same goes for all living things that ever shall live. And then some unfortunate jewish dude gets tortured and sacrificed and suddenly all is well again.

Yea, that doesn't sound as rubbish at all.

You know what the sad difference is though?
You had to actually do an effort to try and make sound evolution rubbish, by presenting a strawmanned version. While I can merely stick to what your story actually says.


But evolutionary science, over wich more then 300.000 scientific papers have been published in peer reviewed quality journals, and for which nobel prizes have been won, ... yeah, THAT's the fairy tale.

As for life, there is only concoctions by atheists to prove it older than 6 000 years.

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LOL

This puts you at odds with not just biology, but also geology, archeology, paleontology, chemistry, physics,... and I'm sure I'm forgetting a few as well.

But "you agree with science" ha?

Evolution is not science and there is no evidence to support Evolution in science.

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Especially when you ignore all the evidence and science.

SA Huguenot said:

And the only reason is that atheists scientists are indoctronating the youth in school and universities with BS turning any normal person into an evolutionist.
Now, I have yet to find a Bible believing Christian scientist that will hold Evolution as science.
There might be the odd one, that will claim that God used evolution, but they will not be a Bible believer and will have to admit that the Bible say God created man, and is not some mindless sircumstances of unguided events.
Sorry pal, only Muslims, Hindis, pagans, and anyone not a Christian Bible believer believes in that rubbish.

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My biology teacher was a christian.

In fact... I even think that in the demographics of religious beliefs in the sciences, it's actually the biological sciences that have the highest rates of theists. Like, more then half.

Physics seems to be dominated by professors more inclined to be atheists.

Evolution, the back bone of Biology?

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Yes. Biology is a pretty big field. It holds many many subfields like comparative anatomy, genetics, population genetics, comparative genomics, molecular biology, micro biology, etc etc etc.

Evolution, is like the "unified field theory" of biology.
Biology has it's unified field theory, unlike physics.

See there is no single theory that unifies quantum physics with classical physics.
In biology, this theory is already established. Been like that for quite some time now. You should try and catch up.

SA Huguenot said:

or a Christian Bible believer who will answer to the Atheist attacks against evidence of God.
Pal, accept the truth.
Your Bible = On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection.
Your God = matter.
Your priest = Richard Dawkins.
Your church = the congregation of Atheists and agnostics.
Your creed = There is no God, does not matter what I see. Deny deny deny.
Your life hereafter, = fodder for plants.
your parents, = More ape than you.
Your children = more human than you.
Life, = not worth anything, we are just here.
Morals = not needed, humans are just another fungus.

This is atheism, and dont even attempt to change the meaning.

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You have no idea how ridiculous you sound.

I can only tell you that you are wrong in every single way that you could be wrong.
Take it from an atheist that your idea about what an atheist is all about, is hilariously wrong.

Or what evolution is all about, for that matter.

SA Huguenot said:

And when I meet one, I ask him / her.
Who was the first human on Earth?
And they answer, oh, I dont believe Genesis was actual history!
I ask them then, do you believe Yhahuah (Jesus) created it all?
And they will have to admit that they call themself Christian, but dont believe in the Bible!
hear what I claim:
Any BIBLE BELIEVING CHRISTIAN does not believe in evolution!

Good grachias man, even Hitler called himself a Christian.

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No true scottsman alert

SA Huguenot said:

or a Christian Bible believer who will answer to the Atheist attacks against evidence of God.

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What about those who believe in God and Evolution? You're not answering them?

Pal, accept the truth.
Your Bible = On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection.

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Actually, I think most non-believers "Bible" is the natural world. They study and learn from many sources and accept those things that fit into their experience of the world.

Your God = matter.

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But what about energy, quarks, and other sub-atomic realities? Atheists don't believe in those things?

Your priest = Richard Dawkins.

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How silly.

Your church = the congregation of Atheists and agnostics.

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Just as silly.

Your creed = There is no God, does not matter what I see. Deny deny deny.

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Might be true for some.

Your life hereafter, = fodder for plants.
your parents, = More ape than you.
Your children = more human than you.
Life, = not worth anything, we are just here.
Morals = not needed, humans are just another fungus.

This is atheism, and dont even attempt to change the meaning.

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...
So, by exaggeration and hyperbole you think you somehow represent the truth? Your yes should be yes, and your no should be no, by going on about made up claims that you know are false, are you really representing Jesus?

I know, you're upset, but really... never read Gal 5:22?

ImmortalFlame said:

In any case, the issue is more with the sequence. Even if we take the seven days as symbolic, the Genesis account unambiguously states that the earth was formed before light or stars or the sun, that the earliest form of life is vegetation that pre-dates life in the sea, and that birds pre-lade land animals.

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It is even worse than that.

Vegetation (3rd day) not only predated marine life, birds and land animals, vegetation also predated the sun, moon and stars (4th day)

How is that even possible?

Genesis is also wrong about birds predating land animals. Primitive amphibians, reptiles, and mammals all predated birds. While birds may have evolved from (avian) dinosaurs, true birds didn’t exist until the mid Cretaceous period.

Subduction Zone said:

there is no inherent purpose to life that has been found yet. Why assume that there is or even should be? Not wanting to die is an evolved trait that any life with a brain of any sort wants. It is far from being unique to humans.

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I truly doubt (no evidence that I know of to prove it) that animals plead with God to keep living. Self-preservation or instinct is built in, as you say. But prayer, writing, speech to God about dying? Only humans have that trait. As I have been thinking of our conversations (again, have not approached the dating of fossils yet -- when I have more time I hope to), it's almost as Leonard Cohen seemed to sing about -- not in so many words, but as I interpret it -- life is meaningless, as you also believe -- has no purpose. He seemed to plead with God about this but I detect that he wanted something he had no real faith in.
God created man differently from the animals. God made man in His image. "Let us make man in our image." (Before that God made the heavens and the earth. Then He made humans.) The leap from a gorilla's brain (or an ape-like ancestor, shall we say) to a human's ability to think, create, and consider, is so vast that it doesn't make sense to think these traits evolved. Or just happened by natural selection. But, if you believe that they just happened after a long time -- well, that's that. I believe the ability to think and reason between an ape's brain and human's brain is huge beyond description in terms of any chance or forced chance by micro evolutionary changes.

Subduction Zone said:

I don't believe you. You have no understanding of the sciences at all. You appear to refuse to learn so your so called investigation was dishonest at best. Also countless Christians accept the fact of evolution. One need not believe the myths of Genesis to be a Christian.



Wrong again. If you want to claim that your book of myths is true then the burden of proof is upon you. I can demonstrate evolution to be correct, but you will need to lose your fear and try to learn.

Most creationists are very very afraid.

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Well, even before I understood things better about the Bible, I was afraid of dying. I didn't want to die. In fact, after a while I declared myself an atheist. I wondered why we die. I truly doubt, once again, that animals wonder why they die. Some people I have spoken to say they are not afraid of dying. I've gotten better about it as I now have faith in God, but I still do not relish the prospect of death.

gnostic said:

It is even worse than that.

Vegetation (3rd day) not only predated marine life, birds and land animals, vegetation also predated the sun, moon and stars (4th day)

How is that even possible?

Genesis is also wrong about birds predating land animals. Primitive amphibians, reptiles, and mammals all predated birds. While birds may have evolved from (avian) dinosaurs, true birds didn’t exist until the mid Cretaceous period.

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No, you read the text carefully and thoughtfully.
Remember, these things were being passed down before writing existed
And these things are written with theological purpose in mind.

1 - God created the heavens
2 - and the earth.

Okay? We have a "heaven" (Hebrew, all things above, sun, moon, stars etc..) and an earth.
Do we examine all stages of this earth? No. Genesis is not like that. We are given a particular
stage, when no sun shone upon the earth, when there was no life and there was no land. That
stage actually existed - as attested by science.
Yes, it speaks of God creating the sun later - but that's the scribe at work (we know that because
this scribe gives a "day" before he gives the sun.)
I noticed yesterday reading about Jesus' father Joseph - the bible said he was engaged to Mary
but then says Joseph was Mary's husband - it didn't mean he was the husband AT THAT TIME.
And Abraham came from "Ur of the Chaldeas." People use that to "prove" this account was
written later, during Chaldean times. But no, it was called "Chaldeas" when it was translated
because no-one knew of Sumer anymore. You find a lot of this in the bible - it's a theological
text, its message is about spiritual things - not the technicalities. But when it does give such
technicalities it often turns out to be fairly accurate (ie temple dimensions, Paul's maritime
details, lists of kings etc..)

gnostic said:

It is even worse than that.

Vegetation (3rd day) not only predated marine life, birds and land animals, vegetation also predated the sun, moon and stars (4th day)

How is that even possible?

Genesis is also wrong about birds predating land animals. Primitive amphibians, reptiles, and mammals all predated birds. While birds may have evolved from (avian) dinosaurs, true birds didn’t exist until the mid Cretaceous period.

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It says life first came from the land. It gives a list of land life.
It then says life came from the sea, and gave a sea list (including birds!)
You can read it either way
1 - life came from land and then the sea, and the complex stuff arose in both later
2 - life came from land and was complex (ie trees, animals) and the sea was utterly sterile.

The first is the obvious choice.
The sun didn't predate the earth - verse 1 says the "heavens" ie sun, moon and stars, were
created first of all. Later reference to a sun is repeated, redundant and confuses people. It
probably confused the scribe taking down oral traditions many thousands of years ago.

PruePhillip said:

Charles Darwin spoke of the "little warm pond" creating life.
Little warm ponds don't exist in the ocean - well, maybe they
do 'cos I do SCUBA and you get these warm patches of
water sometimes. But I digress. Ponds are on land. And
if it's not a pond then it's in the clay itself.

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Well, if we're going to say ponds are on land due to the fact that there's ground underneath when you take the water away, then the oceans are on land as well.

YoursTrue said:

I truly doubt (no evidence that I know of to prove it) that animals plead with God to keep living. Self-preservation or instinct is built in, as you say. But prayer, writing, speech to God about dying? Only humans have that trait. As I have been thinking of our conversations (again, have not approached the dating of fossils yet -- when I have more time I hope to), it's almost as Leonard Cohen seemed to sing about -- not in so many words, but as I interpret it -- life is meaningless, as you also believe -- has no purpose. He seemed to plead with God about this but I detect that he wanted something he had no real faith in.
God created man differently from the animals. God made man in His image. "Let us make man in our image." (Before that God made the heavens and the earth. Then He made humans.) The leap from a gorilla's brain (or an ape-like ancestor, shall we say) to a human's ability to think, create, and consider, is so vast that it doesn't make sense to think these traits evolved. Or just happened by natural selection. But, if you believe that they just happened after a long time -- well, that's that. I believe the ability to think and reason between an ape's brain and human's brain is huge beyond description in terms of any chance or forced chance by micro evolutionary changes.

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I don't see why you think that one species of animals sometimes prays to a made up being to be significant.

YoursTrue said:

Well, even before I understood things better about the Bible, I was afraid of dying. I didn't want to die. In fact, after a while I declared myself an atheist. I wondered why we die. I truly doubt, once again, that animals wonder why they die. Some people I have spoken to say they are not afraid of dying. I've gotten better about it as I now have faith in God, but I still do not relish the prospect of death.

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So a convenient lie makes your life easier.. What does that have to do with evolution?

TagliatelliMonster said:

Every single theory in all of science is "unproven".
Be it plate tectonics, atoms, germs, relativity,....

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As an aside, I am seeing more and more anti-vaccine kooks doubting the Germ Theory of disease...

YoursTrue said:

I believe the ability to think and reason between an ape's brain and human's brain is huge beyond description in terms of any chance or forced chance by micro evolutionary changes.

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Aside from your mere belief, what evidence do you have?

Do you think your bible-based, non-scientific belief is equivalent to evidence-backed hypotheses and such?

Subduction Zone said:

So a convenient lie makes your life easier..

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Probably the only studies I know of which look at "what happens" at the time of
death (let's call it the 'pre-death experience' is by a clinical psychologist and
neurologist called Peter Fenwick)

It kind of eerie. Three of the seven members of my family have encountered
these experiences. I like what he has to say about people having experiences
or dreams or whatever WHILE THEY ARE 100% BRAIN DEAD.


Is that afterlife a "lie"
That's a big call. How do YOU know?

PruePhillip said:

Probably the only studies I know of which look at "what happens" at the time of
death (let's call it the 'pre-death experience' is by a clinical psychologist and
neurologist called Peter Fenwick)

It kind of eerie. Three of the seven members of my family have encountered
these experiences. I like what he has to say about people having experiences
or dreams or whatever WHILE THEY ARE 100% BRAIN DEAD.

Is that afterlife a "lie"
That's a big call. How do YOU know?

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Nope, none of your family members were %100 BRAIN DEAD. There is no coming back from that. Are you trying to claim that they were all hooked up to very complex monitoring equipment that you are not going to find in the average hospital? What a coincidence that they all had an event while being members of a study on brain physiology

Subduction Zone said:

Nope, none of your family members were %100 BRAIN DEAD. There is no coming back from that. Are you trying to claim that they were all hooked up to very complex monitoring equipment that you are not going to find in the average hospital? What a coincidence that they all had an event while being members of a study on brain physiology

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None of my family were totally brain dead, but then, that's a matter of opinion.
But Fenwick speaks of people who are totally "flat lined" on brain scans, yet
recall things.
It's worth watching. We watch this video every now and then out of total
fascination. Keep an open mind - if you want to argue with a clinic psychologist
and neurologist who did some of the world's first studies into near death
experiences then go ahead - just make sure you are learned up.