God of awe or God of love?

Windwalker said:

I would not equate the God of Fear, with the God of Awe. Awe and reverence is a response of profound love. When encountering the God of Fear, the responses are anxiety, worry, concern, and the need to escape or to somehow control the situation through appeasement, strict obedience lest you be smitten, etc. That is not love.

When encountering the God of Love, on the other hand, which is the God I believe in, encountering this leaves one completely and totally free of all fear. Love is the opposite of fear. Fear is the opposite of Love. One is left completely and utterly in awe of the pure Beauty of the Divine. Reverence and worship is a response of Love, not fear. Fear responds in self-preservation. Love responds in self-emptying and devotion. Fear is not of God. God is Love.

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Is that two Gods?

IndigoChild5559 said:

Jews refer to God as Avinu Malkenu, Our Father Our King. I

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I always thought Jews never personalized God that way (referencing God as Father).

Epic Beard Man said:

I always thought Jews never personalized God that way (referencing God as Father).

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I'm so glad to have been able to correct at least for one person, one of the worst Christian misrepresentations of Judaism.

Epic Beard Man said:

I always thought Jews never personalized God that way (referencing God as Father).

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Yes, I used to think that, as well.

Epic Beard Man said:

I always thought Jews never personalized God that way (referencing God as Father).

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Oh they do. Isiah calls God "Abi" or father. Isiah also calls him "Gawal" or "the one who recovers us, rescues us".

The is also ample references to Son of God or Ben Elohim. (No I am no expert in the language)

But the Jewish faith is adamant in never anthropomorphising God. Its personal, collective, but never physical.

Windwalker said:

I do not believe we should ever use the term "fear" to describe respect. If you respected me for instance, would you ever say you fear me to mean that? I would hope not. That sends a very wrong message.

We do not live in the 1700s. Fear means afraid.

noun

1. an unpleasant emotion caused by the belief that someone or something is dangerous, likely to cause pain, or a threat.

verb

1. be afraid of (someone or something) as likely to be dangerous, painful, or threatening.

I cannot see how fear and God go together on any level that conveys the meaning of the word fear defined above.


Respect I get. Fear I don't.

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We would have to go back to the beginning to understand more. By beginning, I mean that which happened in the Garden of Eden. The Almighty asked Adam to respect Him. He also told Adam (and evidently Adam told Eve) that if they did what he told them not to do, they would -- die.

firedragon said:

Oh they do. Isiah calls God "Abi" or father. Isiah also calls him "Gawal" or "the one who recovers us, rescues us".

The is also ample references to Son of God or Ben Elohim. (No I am no expert in the language)

But the Jewish faith is adamant in never anthropomorphising God. Its personal, collective, but never physical.

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I see

firedragon said:

Oh they do. Isiah calls God "Abi" or father. Isiah also calls him "Gawal" or "the one who recovers us, rescues us".

The is also ample references to Son of God or Ben Elohim. (No I am no expert in the language)

But the Jewish faith is adamant in never anthropomorphising God. Its personal, collective, but never physical.

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Anthropomorphize doesn't equate 'physical'. It means 'humanlike', not necessarily meaning a physicality

Desert Snake said:

Anthropomorphize doesn't equate 'physical'. It means 'humanlike', not necessarily meaning a physicality

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Lol. Brother. I didnt say they are the same, they are two different things.

Its like saying "Bruce lee was a Martial artist, and a father". Two different things.

Peace.

God of evil more like.

IndigoChild5559 said:

It's that fear without love is horrifying, and love without discipline is sick

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Hence I see "awe" as in feeling of "awe and wonder" (greatest respect, reverence, deference) not the feeling of "fear".

IndigoChild5559 said:

How often have you heard people saying there are two Gods in the Bible, the "fearsome" God of the Tanakh (OT) and the God of love in the Christian portion?

Jews refer to God as Avinu Malkenu, Our Father Our King. In fact, during these High Holy Days of autumn, this prayer becomes especially dear to us.

I would argue that either Our King or Our Father alone without the other is entirely unbalanced. We must have both sides in order to experience the fullness of HaShem.

It's not just that both sides are in the scripture (and they are -- this nonsense that the God of the Tanakh is all fear and no love is baseless). It's that fear without love is horrifying, and love without discipline is sick.

In the metaphor of Father, we have a God who is on a higher plane than us, an who wishes what is best for us. He therefore sets boundaries for us, and consequences if we deviate from the rules, as any good parent does. In saying he is King of the Universe, we acknowledge his awesome power -- and his restraint. He does not wish to punish, he wishes for our repentance so that he can forgive. But truly, he holds the very fabric of the universe together -- and can destroy it in a moment should he wish. That kind of power has to be respected. In reality, human beings fall flat on our faces when we encounter the much lesser power of angels. How much more overwhelming would we feel in the presence of the Almighty? Yet we also respond to his love. Those who study such things say that "worship" is when we feel fear and joy simultaneously.

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I fear (reverence) Ha Shem. I fear FOR my skeptic troll friends at RF.

Desert Snake said:

No, that is more like a 'general question'.
And the fact that there are 'rules', means that your definition of 'love', either has to be explained, in that context, or, perhaps you don't believe in either rules, or hell.

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This is where I am confused. I don't see the need to define what love is by contrasting it with rules. Love is love. Following the rules, or to put a specific point upon it, being moral, is a natural result of following love. It is not the result of being fearful of punishments. "Love works no ill", says Paul in Romans. You follow love, and love is moral. End of story.

If someone follows the rules because they are fearful of punishment, they are not being moral. It is not coming from a place of love. It does not flow from the source of compassion and empathy towards others, because you understand what love is in your own life. Rather, obeying the rules, being a "good person" because you are afraid of being caught and or punished, is not coming from love. It is self-interest alone at that point. And that is not genuine love. It is fear based.

Jesus taught to make clean the inside of the cup first, which means be filled with that Source of love, then the outside takes care of itself. Otherwise, you are a "whitewashed tomb" all clean on the outside but full of rot on the inside, as Jesus put it. This is the deception that religious piety hopes to mask.

As far as hell goes, no I do not believe in it literally. It is a metaphor to describe what it is like to live separated from that Source of Love, which is by contrast living in darkness. That's here in this world in each of us when we are out of true with that Center. It's not a "place", or any "where" that God sends you. It's a creation of our own, inflicted upon our own selves. God does not do that "to" us. To send another to their own misery, is an act of cruelty and evil. God is Love. Compassion does not do this. Fear does, however.

Desert Snake said:

The fact that there are 'rules', and hell, so forth, may or may not be equated with fear, and that is getting to what we would be calling 'abstract'.

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Everything we are talking about is abstract, so that does not pose any sort of problem. I'm not sure however you think that hell, as is traditionally abstracted as some place of eternal torture and punishment for those who don't follow the rules, cannot be equated with fear. Hell is the incarnation of fear. It is the ultimate symbol of fear.

Desert Snake said:

Aside from that, your 'interpretation', that I meant, Theism is "based on fear of divine retribution", is incorrect, and I didn't say that at all.

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I've never in my life imagined that Theism is based on fear of divine retribution. I view myself as a Panentheist, which is a form of theism. But even as a declared traditional theist in the past, I never once felt it was based on fear of retribution. Theism is simply the believe that God exists and is transcendent to us. God can be see through the eyes of love, or the eyes of fear.

God exacting divine retribution is an image of God based upon fear. But God promoting distributive justice for all, God having compassion and forgiveness and grace for all, is an image of God based on love. Both views are interpretations of theism. One sees God as benevolent, the other as fearful and threatening.

Desert Snake said:

Your religious and deity ideas might be affecting your 'interpretations', and that could happen if you have a impersonal deity concept, (thusly everything is based on your actions, and the deity is just like a computer program, or abacus.

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I should start by saying I don't have "deity ideas". I have experience. I start with personal experience, and from there try to find ways to describe that experience. Love with the complete absence of fear, is a description of experience. My experience does in fact affect my interpretation. Just as a lack of experience, and relying on concepts will affect anyone's interpretation. In the latter case, what they do draw from experientially often comes from a place of the fear of the Unknown.

Secondly, I view God as paradoxically both infinitely impersonal, as well as infinitely personal. I have experienced both "faces" of God as it were. These are simply reflective of the set of eyes we are seeing with, and both of these are within us ourselves. They are both from the single Source however, which is nondual.

One does not penetrate into the divine by concepts. That is done with one's own being, beyond thoughts and ideas. And what is found is both profoundly silent and profoundly alive. It is infinitely personal, and infinitely impersonal. Neither of which leaves one feeling threatened or afraid. The concept of hell, and that is what it is, has no place in the Divine. It is not possible to exist, as it is a non-reality. Nothing can exist outside God. And God is Love.

firedragon said:

Is that two Gods?

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Interesting question. There is only one God. But people see God in different ways. I'm of the belief that when we are living in a state of fear, the God we see is a reflection of that state. If we are living in a state of unconditional love, then the God we see is a reflection of that. These states are opposite to each other, but within fear, there is a core of love regardless. It is just masked and unseen and unexperienced because of fear. Remove fear, and love is what remains. I am of the belief that core reality of God is that Love. That is Reality. Fear creates illusion.

IndigoChild5559 said:

Because the God of Abraham is the CREATOR.

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That sounds like something you believe but not something which could be argued. People make things and then lose control of them. We aren't kings of everything that we make. Perhaps the term creator is not as helpful as I'd like.

JJ50 said:

God of evil more like.

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Or of laugh. Which is close in sound to love, while being more plausible.

Ciao

- viole

IndigoChild5559 said:

I'm so glad to have been able to correct at least for one person, one of the worst Christian misrepresentations of Judaism.

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It is perhaps by some Christians, however Christianity aims to disclose truths it has learned in Judaism rather than to make up rumors about Judaism. I personally have never had anyone tell me that God wasn't the Father in Judaism. I think the term Father can be used to mislead people into thinking God is male. I think people have told me that God was male, and I think they were irresponsible for teaching me that.

BilliardsBall said:

I fear (reverence) Ha Shem. I fear FOR my skeptic troll friends at RF.

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What are you afraid of? That we will get no presents at Christmas on account of our disbelief for Santa?

Or are you you afraid for the consequences we might suffer for disbelieving beings that share the same evidence with Santa?

In that case, you should be worried for yourself, too.

Ciao

- viole

YoursTrue said:

We would have to go back to the beginning to understand more. By beginning, I mean that which happened in the Garden of Eden. The Almighty asked Adam to respect Him. He also told Adam (and evidently Adam told Eve) that if they did what he told them not to do, they would -- die.

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I don't recall God asking to be respected. All the allegory says is that God told them to not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, lest their eyes will be open and they'll know death, or what it is to experience suffering. But that's really not God saying, "Respect me, or else... grrrrr...."

I don't see God saying be afraid of me, but rather explaining basic consequences. Its like telling a child, "Don't touch the stove it's hot. I wouldn't want you to get hurt." That's not at all like, "You'd better respect me, or I'll hit you, and punish you and all your children because you didn't listen to me! I'm in charge, damnit!!!" That would be purely about controlling others and protecting personal ego at that point. It's not about the child. It's not about love. It's about a weak ego needing to feel power through the control of others.

Respect is the result of showing love. It's earned. It's not the result of demanding it from others under threats. That's what those who don't know love do. That is not the way of God. God is love, not fear.

IndigoChild5559 said:

How often have you heard people saying there are two Gods in the Bible, the "fearsome" God of the Tanakh (OT) and the God of love in the Christian portion?

Jews refer to God as Avinu Malkenu, Our Father Our King. In fact, during these High Holy Days of autumn, this prayer becomes especially dear to us.

I would argue that either Our King or Our Father alone without the other is entirely unbalanced. We must have both sides in order to experience the fullness of HaShem.

It's not just that both sides are in the scripture (and they are -- this nonsense that the God of the Tanakh is all fear and no love is baseless). It's that fear without love is horrifying, and love without discipline is sick.

In the metaphor of Father, we have a God who is on a higher plane than us, an who wishes what is best for us. He therefore sets boundaries for us, and consequences if we deviate from the rules, as any good parent does. In saying he is King of the Universe, we acknowledge his awesome power -- and his restraint. He does not wish to punish, he wishes for our repentance so that he can forgive. But truly, he holds the very fabric of the universe together -- and can destroy it in a moment should he wish. That kind of power has to be respected. In reality, human beings fall flat on our faces when we encounter the much lesser power of angels. How much more overwhelming would we feel in the presence of the Almighty? Yet we also respond to his love. Those who study such things say that "worship" is when we feel fear and joy simultaneously.

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We aren't even certain that God made fear. It seems to me from scriptures that there was no reason to be afraid before people became corrupt.

In Psalm 53 it talks about how people were in fear where no fear was (before). Because they went astray and corrupted themselves. And there is no one who is good or seeks God.

1st John 4:18 says that perfect love casts out fear. So it seems that fear is the result of moral corruption and if people repent and return to God then they can know only love and don't even need to be afraid anymore. However, there is a need for fear for people who are still unrepentant.

So people who claim that God is a God of fear have failed to understand Him. He was always about love and not fear. We turned to fear ourselves by turning away from God.