The Bible - Why Trust It

Subduction Zone · Sep 16, 2019

Subduction Zone said:
Since the Bible can be shown to fail when one makes the errors that you do it is more than opinion. You are in effect stating that the Bible is worthless when you go with an all or nothing attitude. Of course you would have to learn at least the basics of science to understand how Genesis is a book of myths. Are you up to the challenge?

I find it ironic that @Hockeycowboy thought that I was being optimistic when I asked @nPeace if he was willing to try to learn. Does the latter see that the former insulted him?

I may be optimistic. I am always hoping that creationists can learn from their obvious errors.

TagliatelliMonster · Sep 16, 2019

nPeace said:
You are wrong, of course.

Off course, I am not.
As explained, that's what defines religions as being religions.

It's what the qualifier "religious" in "religious belief" literally is all about.

It is clearly evident to me that you don't understand, or know anything about faith, nor Christian faith.

It is clearly evident to me that I actually understand it just fine.
It is also evident to me that you argue against this because of your psychological defenses since acknowledging it would result in having to admit that you happily clinge to irrational beliefs.

So as you did in your previous post... you are merely speaking words, as usual, apparently because you believe you are expert on all knowledge.

No expertise required to understand what the qualifier "religious" means in the wording "religious beliefs".

TagliatelliMonster · Sep 16, 2019

nPeace said:
1. He was clear that he was not Atheist.
2. He had issues with the Bible, and no doubt religion, but had no issue with morality, but appreciated the man Jesus Christ, as a living influential being.

Neither of these are relevant to the point being made.
That point being, in your position, I really wouldn't try and quote Einstein as if it makes your religious beliefs credible because no matter what his opinion on Jesus were, he calls your religious belief CHILDISCH, a collection of SUPERSITIOUSNESS and a product of human weakness.

He's really the last person you should be quoting in an attempt to make your religious beliefs sound semi-rational.

If you agree with him, that's fine. If you disagree with him, that's fine also.
I'm just saying, I see no sense is a back and forth argument on whose opinion is correct, when one has nothing to prove it.

In case you missed my point...
So basically, you argue simply based on personal opinion, rather than any confirmed supportive facts.
Anyone can do that... but what sense does it make, going back and forth, with my opinion, your opinion ?

Your point was about @Subduction Zone referring to many of your religious beliefs as being "myths". And you quoted Einstein in that context.

But Einstein equally considers your religious beliefs as "myth". Worse even, he calls it childish, superstitious and a product of human weakness.

TagliatelliMonster · Sep 16, 2019

Hockeycowboy said:
.
“What Einstein actually believed”....

From the link ‘Bible’, above:
But he did not become an atheist. As Eugene Mallove wrote for The Washington Post in 1985, Einstein believed in what he called a “cosmic religion” – which was less a religion than “a rapturous amazement at the harmony of natural law, which reveals an intelligence of such superiority that, compared with it, all the systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection”.

Excerpt from Einstein’s letter rejecting God to be auctioned

Here’s another...
Excerpt from (Barnett, L.,) "The Universe and Dr. Einstein", Victor Gallancz Ltd, London, UK, p. 95, 1953.
"My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals Himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble minds. That deeply emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasoning power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible universe, forms my idea of God."
(Capitalization of 'Himself' and 'God' were in the book.
Bold type is mine, to highlight.)

Intelligent Design, anyone?

Einstein too, is capable of engaging in arguments from ignorance / incredulity, if that is what he really believed.
No human has a monopoly on rationality, after all.

Regardless, no: Einstein really doesn't find himself in your religious camp.

He called your religion a collection of superstitious legends, childish and the product of human weakness.
Really not the person you wish to quote to defend your religious beliefs.

Having said that, I repeat: what individual scientists believe religiously, no matter who they are, is irrelevant and just a fallacy of appeal to authority.

Subduction Zone · Sep 16, 2019

Once again, this is Einstein's last quote on God. The link to the source is on the previous page:

“The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weakness, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still purely primitive, legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation, no matter how subtle, can change this for me.”

Now are those the words of an atheist or a theist? That is the last word on the matter, at least as of now, but I do not see anyone finding a later quote that contradicts that one.

Subduction Zone · Sep 16, 2019

TagliatelliMonster said:
Einstein too, is capable of engaging in arguments from ignorance / incredulity, if that is what he really believed.
No human has a monopoly on rationality, after all.

Regardless, no: Einstein really doesn't find himself in your religious camp.

He called your religion a collection of superstitious legends, childish and the product of human weakness.
Really not the person you wish to quote to defend your religious beliefs.

Having said that, I repeat: what individual scientists believe religiously, no matter who they are, is irrelevant and just a fallacy of appeal to authority.

Such errors (and that is being overly generous) occur quite often because fundamentalists conflate evolution with atheism. If Einstein believed in God he could not believe in evolution

Goodman John · Sep 16, 2019

nPeace said:
God's tolerance of wickedness, evidently is a product of his abundant mercy.
So when he acted against wickedness, as he did during the days of Noah, and in the time of Lot, against Sodom and Gomorrah, and other similar instances, the level of wickedness was extreme, and beyond God's abundant mercy.
This is what I get from reading the scripture.

But do you not see that this is a perfect lead-in to describing an abusive parent or spouse?

"I'm beating you, but it's only because I love you"
"I have to punish you- it's for your own good"
"Who's your daddy? That's right *whack* it's ME"

And the defense of this behavior is straight out of Battered Spouse 101

"He only acts that way because he loves me"

You see what I mean? In order to justify "God's" actions in the OT one MUST adopt the mindset of a battered spouse or child in order to process it. On the other hand, if one see the OT "God" as not being God at all- but Satan- then it makes perfect sense and there's no need to jump through hoops to justify his behavior. You don't call a shovel a hammer because you want it to be a hammer- you call a shovel a shovel and drive on.

But then there's the contention that 'God lost patience' with Man and lashed out at him. All well and good, but if this is the case it belies the claim of God's 'infinite mercy and love' and all that. God's got all the time in the world for Man to come about to Proper Behavior- so why get all upset and impatient to the point where you nuke and drown everyone? You're GOD, ffs- why get upset and impatient AT ALL?

Goodman John · Sep 16, 2019

Subduction Zone said:
Such errors (and that is being overly generous) occur quite often because fundamentalists conflate evolution with atheism. If Einstein believed in God he could not believe in evolution

I believe in God yet I believe in Evolution- I see no contradiction as I don't accept the Creation Story in Genesis as being literal.

Hockeycowboy · Sep 16, 2019

Subduction Zone said:
Not even close to Intelligent Design. Einstein would have laughed at you. By the way, why no links? Quotes without links are worthless.

As to Einstein's belief in God this is the final word, since it was the last thing he said about the existence of such a being:

“The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weakness, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still purely primitive, legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation, no matter how subtle, can change this for me.”

Was Albert Einstein An Atheist Or Not? Read His Final Words On God

You should really read your own link! Lol!

When it came to atheism, he “chose not to be identified as such.”

What do you think that means?

Hockeycowboy · Sep 16, 2019

Goodman John said:
"I'm beating you, but it's only because I love you"
"I have to punish you- it's for your own good"

Do you feel you’re being punished? You are not enjoying life at all?

Hockeycowboy · Sep 16, 2019

Subduction Zone said:
Once again, this is Einstein's last quote on God. The link to the source is on the previous page:

“The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weakness, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still purely primitive, legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation, no matter how subtle, can change this for me.”

Now are those the words of an atheist or a theist? That is the last word on the matter, at least as of now, but I do not see anyone finding a later quote that contradicts that one.

The “last word” means something, huh?
Well, let’s go with Antony Flew’s last word then.

(What’s the rest of Einstein’s letter say? Surely he didn’t write just one paragraph.)

Hockeycowboy · Sep 16, 2019

Subduction Zone said:
I find it ironic that @Hockeycowboy thought that I was being optimistic when I asked @nPeace if he was willing to try to learn. Does the latter see that the former insulted him?

I may be optimistic. I am always hoping that creationists can learn from their obvious errors.

Lol! Nice job of missing the point, on purpose.

Subduction Zone · Sep 16, 2019

Hockeycowboy said:
You should really read your own link! Lol!

When it came to atheism, he “chose not to be identified as such.”

What do you think that means?

Yes, he did not want to be called an atheist because at that time there was often a different meaning attached to the word. You have not been following along. I said that he is an atheist by today's standards. It does not matter what one wants to be identified as. Such a weak response.

Subduction Zone · Sep 16, 2019

Hockeycowboy said:
Lol! Nice job of missing the point, on purpose.

What are you telling me that you abused the rating system? I gave you the benefit of the doubt are you saying that you should be reported for that abuse?

Subduction Zone · Sep 16, 2019

Hockeycowboy said:
The “last word” means something, huh?
Well, let’s go with Antony Flew’s last word then.

(What’s the rest of Einstein’s letter say? Surely he didn’t write just one paragraph.)

But we are not making your error. Anthony Flew did not believe in ID or any other such nonsense either. It is the people on your side that are so desperate to deny reality that you have to rely on improper appeals to authority.

Subduction Zone · Sep 16, 2019

Goodman John said:
I believe in God yet I believe in Evolution- I see no contradiction as I don't accept the Creation Story in Genesis as being literal.

And I have pointed out many times that evolution does not refute God. It does not even refute the Christian God. It only refutes a literal approach to Genesis. But Genesis was shown to be a non-literal book before Darwin came along. Early Christian geologists were the first with strong evidence against the Noah's Ark myth. They were not trying to disprove God (neither was Darwin for that matter) they were looking for evidence for the Flood but when they found that not to be the case they did not suddenly become atheists.

Goodman John · Sep 16, 2019

Hockeycowboy said:
Do you feel you’re being punished? You are not enjoying life at all?

I used those to illustrate how Christians who believe the "God" of the OT is the True God (the same one as described in the NT) are forced to make excuses for OT "God's" behavior. "God is flooding the world to kill wicked people, so it must be their own fault- he's just doing it for their own good." "God nuked Sodom and Gomorrah because they were bad people- they shouldn't have made God do that to them."

And I'll double down- making excuses for this sounds just like Battered Spouse 101. "He punishes me for my own good. If I acted better he wouldn't be that way. I'll stay with him because he means well."

But if you flip the script and realize it's Satan- and not God- doing all of that it makes perfect sense why "God" is acting like such an a**.

As for me personally, my punishment is being here at all on this earth. It's an evil, flawed place that reflects the evil and flaws of its creator (hint: it's not God) and I'm doing everything I can to strengthen and armor my soul so that when I die it can get off of this rock and not have to do this all over again in another body.

This is not to say the world isn't without some enjoyment, however. We get just enough to keep us fighting over the scraps and distracted from our spiritual nature, and that's by design. There is beauty in the world, yes- no argument there- but scratch the surface and you'll see it's just window dressing for decay and a vicious kill-or-be-killed world.

shunyadragon · Sep 16, 2019

nPeace said:
How is it based on faith? Please explain.

. . . because we lack provenance of authorship or original authorship for most, lacks early documentation before 100 AD except maybe a few letters by Paul. Genesis and the Rest of the Pentateuch is compiled, edited and redacted from various sources very late and contains a great deal of Sumerian, Babylonian, Ugarit and Canaanite mythology.

Hockeycowboy · Sep 16, 2019

Goodman John said:
I used those to illustrate how Christians who believe the "God" of the OT is the True God (the same one as described in the NT) are forced to make excuses for OT "God's" behavior. "God is flooding the world to kill wicked people, so it must be their own fault- he's just doing it for their own good." "God nuked Sodom and Gomorrah because they were bad people- they shouldn't have made God do that to them."

And I'll double down- making excuses for this sounds just like Battered Spouse 101. "He punishes me for my own good. If I acted better he wouldn't be that way. I'll stay with him because he means well."

But if you flip the script and realize it's Satan- and not God- doing all of that it makes perfect sense why "God" is acting like such an a**.

As for me personally, my punishment is being here at all on this earth. It's an evil, flawed place that reflects the evil and flaws of its creator (hint: it's not God) and I'm doing everything I can to strengthen and armor my soul so that when I die it can get off of this rock and not have to do this all over again in another body.

This is not to say the world isn't without some enjoyment, however. We get just enough to keep us fighting over the scraps and distracted from our spiritual nature, and that's by design. There is beauty in the world, yes- no argument there- but scratch the surface and you'll see it's just window dressing for decay and a vicious kill-or-be-killed world.

I understand your viewpoint, you certainly aren’t the only person that feels this way.

But what many call “making excuses”, when the context of these divine incidents is understood, the excuses are really reasons, as to why Jehovah God acted the way He did.

Pick an incident, from the Flood to the 10 plaques to whatever....let’s discuss one.

Hockeycowboy · Sep 16, 2019

Goodman John said:
As for me personally, my punishment is being here at all on this earth. It's an evil, flawed place that reflects the evil and flaws of its creator (hint: it's not God)

Thought I’d like to comment on this....

You know, you’re right, regarding the world! Now, this planet is Jehovah God’s creation, but this world is another matter. (1 John 5:19) Too many people are disregarding the Bible’s counsel on caring for each other, putting other’s interest ahead of their own. (Colossians 3:13-14; Philippians 2:3) I’m sure you would agree, if people lived by these principles, life would be much better!

Just because many don’t want to, doesn’t detract from the Scriptures...in fact, the results we see from so many straying from the Scriptures, actually helps to support the Bible as being divine; it stands to reason that the One claiming to be our Creator, would know the best way for us to act. Following His guidance, as found in Colossians, Philippians, etc., helps to build strong relationships w/ others, and good relationships are essential for human happiness.

If you don’t mind, let’s discuss (in context) one of the incidents where many think God was evil.

The Bible - Why Trust It

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