cladking
Well-Known Member
Who knows what havoc will have been wrought and what perfection created by the time he gets to Mexico?
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The seer and and the seen
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Who knows what havoc will have been wrought and what perfection created by the time he gets to Mexico?
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
That is a need of the humans beings to rejuvenate/recharge one's energies with sleep to spend next 16 hours in full consciousness and in normality. The time of 8 hours is not a time wasted but spent usefully. It also reminds the human beings that their consciousness is an endowment of G-d for which they need a continuous help from G-d for subsistence . Right, please?
Regards
__________________
[39:43]اَللّٰہُ یَتَوَفَّی الۡاَنۡفُسَ حِیۡنَ مَوۡتِہَا وَ الَّتِیۡ لَمۡ تَمُتۡ فِیۡ مَنَامِہَا ۚ فَیُمۡسِکُ الَّتِیۡ قَضٰی عَلَیۡہَا الۡمَوۡتَ وَ یُرۡسِلُ الۡاُخۡرٰۤی اِلٰۤی اَجَلٍ مُّسَمًّی ؕ اِنَّ فِیۡ ذٰلِکَ لَاٰیٰتٍ لِّقَوۡمٍ یَّتَفَکَّرُوۡنَ ﴿۴۳﴾
Allah takes away the souls of human beings at the time of their death; and during their sleep of those also that are not yet dead. And then He retains those against which He has decreed death, and sends back the others till an appointed term. In that surely are Signs for a people who reflect.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 39: Az-Zumar
cladking
Well-Known Member
Right please?
I assume you want a response. I rarely directly answer such questions because it simply doesn't matter what I believe. My
beliefs have no impact on whether or not God(s) exist(s). It is certainly true that the average human needs eight hours sleep
every night. We tend to need more when young and less as we age. Individuals vary but most who get very little sleep are
probably harming themselves or, at the least, their ability to function well. This is simply part of the nature of being human
and one might certainly say that sleep is an imposition imposed by God as well as a gift. This assumes of course that one be-
lieves in God(s) and believes he can know His "mind". It is very equivalent to saying that nature imposes the need for eight
hours sleep on humans and that this sleep is highly beneficial (and necessary) to the individual. These are very much just two
perspectives of the same phenomenon. Instead of getting into such philosophical questions it would be possible to simply de-
fine sleep as a state of "semi-consciousness" in which humans must engage for about eight hours for their health and proper
functioning.
Consciousness comes from God(s)/ nature and is the means by which every individual survives.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Thanks for one's input.
Regards
Yeah. If a mentally-sensually person does not cognise, will you conclude absence of consciousness? Pure ground of consciousness, which we experience everyday in deep sleep, seems unconscious owing to lack of duality.
Everyone experiences infinite consciousness in deep sleep, which is devoid of space-time-objects iand so appears as if unconscious. In that same ground of apparent unconsciousness of deep sleep come up a) Dream state comprising subtle-mental self and corresponding world and b) Waking state comprising gross bodily self and a corresponding world. The self is that consciousness which links these three states.
Some folks may on reflecting upon the above everyday empirical experience immediately intuit the conscious self is itself pure consciousness empty of contents and is also the seer of all that appears and disappears in consciousness. When objects appear, mind appears to become conscious (as in dream and waking states). When consciousness is devoid of objects, nothing is known. ‘Not knowing anything is not absence of consciousness.
But most people will not be able to intuit that deep sleep state is not ‘unconscious’ but appears so to mind owing to absence of reflecting objects/contrasts. For these people an objective world can exist without consciousness. But these folks, conclude absence absence of ‘consciousness’ in case of personal phenomenal experience. As if mind itself is the consciousness. As if reflection in a mirror is the real man. As if non-cognition by a mentally-sensually deficient person would mean absence of consciousness.
Such people will assume that deep sleep or fainting means absence of consciousness. The idea is that, when we faint or undergo general anesthesia, or enter deep sleep, we become seemingly unconscious. Yet, we do not cease to exist because of it, which may seem to contradict the idealist tenet that our body is the extrinsic appearance of conscious inner life. The misconception here is a conflation of consciousness proper with reflection of it in mind. Consciousness is a continuum where some levels are connected to awareness and others are not, extending down to levels that are eventually very basic and non-reflective.
To report an experience—such as making a decision to act or seeing danger ahead—to another or to oneself, one has to both (a) have the experience and (b) know that one has the experience. Self reflection is just a particular configuration of consciousness, whereby consciousness turns in upon itself to experience knowledge of its own phenomenality.
Empirical data indeed shows that episodes of seeming unconsciousness are associated with an impairment of memory access or lack of reflection, but not necessarily with absence of phenomenality.
For example, fainting caused by asphyxiation, strangulation or hyperventilation is known to correlate with euphoria, euphoria, insights and visions (Neal 2008: 310-315, Rhinewine & Williams 2007, Retz 2007). G-force-induced loss of consciousness (G-LOC) is also known to correlate with “memorable dreams” (Whinnery & Whinnery 1990). There is even evidence for “implicit perception” during general anaesthesia (Kihlstrom & Cork 2007).
Sleep, again, is known to correlate with dreams and also with non-recallable phenomenality distinct from dreams. Windt, Nielsen & Thompson 2016: 871 state “..there are good empirical and theoretical reasons for saying that a range of different types of sleep experience, some of which are distinct from dreaming, can occur in all stages of sleep“. Authors identify three different categories of sleep experiences distinct from dreams: (a) non-immersive imagery and sleep thinking, (b) perceptions and bodily sensations, and (c) ‘selfless’ states and contentless sleep experiences that may be similar to those reported by experienced meditators.
So, one may experience unconscious episodes due to poor recollection of memory or due to absence of objects in consciousness.
References:
Neal, RM (2008). The Path to Addiction: “And Other Troubles We Are Born to Know.” Bloomington, IN: AuthorHouse.
Rhinewine, JP and Williams, OJ (2007). Holotropic Breathwork: The Potential Role of a Prolonged, Voluntary Hyperventilation Procedure as an Adjunct to Psychotherapy. The Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine, 13 (7): 771-776.
Retz (2007). Tripping without drugs: Experience with hyperventilation (ID 14651).
Whinnery, J. and Whinnery, A. (1990). Acceleration-Induced Loss of Consciousness: A Review of 500 Episodes. Archives of Neurology, 47 (7): 764-776.
Kihlstrom, J. and Cork, R. (2007). Anesthesia. In: Velmans, M. & Schneider, S. (eds.). The Blackwell Companion to Consciousness. Oxford, UK: Blackwell.
Windt, J., Nielsen, T. and Thompson, E. (2016). Does Consciousness Disappear in Dreamless Sleep? Trends in Cognitive Sciences, 20 (12): 871-882.
Kastrup, Bernardo. The Idea of the World. John Hunt Publishing. Kindle Edition.
Some folks may on reflecting upon the above everyday empirical experience immediately intuit the conscious self is itself pure consciousness empty of contents and is also the seer of all that appears and disappears in consciousness. When objects appear, mind appears to become conscious (as in dream and waking states). When consciousness is devoid of objects, nothing is known. ‘Not knowing anything is not absence of consciousness.
But most people will not be able to intuit that deep sleep state is not ‘unconscious’ but appears so to mind owing to absence of reflecting objects/contrasts. For these people an objective world can exist without consciousness. But these folks, conclude absence absence of ‘consciousness’ in case of personal phenomenal experience. As if mind itself is the consciousness. As if reflection in a mirror is the real man. As if non-cognition by a mentally-sensually deficient person would mean absence of consciousness.
Such people will assume that deep sleep or fainting means absence of consciousness. The idea is that, when we faint or undergo general anesthesia, or enter deep sleep, we become seemingly unconscious. Yet, we do not cease to exist because of it, which may seem to contradict the idealist tenet that our body is the extrinsic appearance of conscious inner life. The misconception here is a conflation of consciousness proper with reflection of it in mind. Consciousness is a continuum where some levels are connected to awareness and others are not, extending down to levels that are eventually very basic and non-reflective.
To report an experience—such as making a decision to act or seeing danger ahead—to another or to oneself, one has to both (a) have the experience and (b) know that one has the experience. Self reflection is just a particular configuration of consciousness, whereby consciousness turns in upon itself to experience knowledge of its own phenomenality.
Empirical data indeed shows that episodes of seeming unconsciousness are associated with an impairment of memory access or lack of reflection, but not necessarily with absence of phenomenality.
For example, fainting caused by asphyxiation, strangulation or hyperventilation is known to correlate with euphoria, euphoria, insights and visions (Neal 2008: 310-315, Rhinewine & Williams 2007, Retz 2007). G-force-induced loss of consciousness (G-LOC) is also known to correlate with “memorable dreams” (Whinnery & Whinnery 1990). There is even evidence for “implicit perception” during general anaesthesia (Kihlstrom & Cork 2007).
Sleep, again, is known to correlate with dreams and also with non-recallable phenomenality distinct from dreams. Windt, Nielsen & Thompson 2016: 871 state “..there are good empirical and theoretical reasons for saying that a range of different types of sleep experience, some of which are distinct from dreaming, can occur in all stages of sleep“. Authors identify three different categories of sleep experiences distinct from dreams: (a) non-immersive imagery and sleep thinking, (b) perceptions and bodily sensations, and (c) ‘selfless’ states and contentless sleep experiences that may be similar to those reported by experienced meditators.
So, one may experience unconscious episodes due to poor recollection of memory or due to absence of objects in consciousness.
References:
Neal, RM (2008). The Path to Addiction: “And Other Troubles We Are Born to Know.” Bloomington, IN: AuthorHouse.
Rhinewine, JP and Williams, OJ (2007). Holotropic Breathwork: The Potential Role of a Prolonged, Voluntary Hyperventilation Procedure as an Adjunct to Psychotherapy. The Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine, 13 (7): 771-776.
Retz (2007). Tripping without drugs: Experience with hyperventilation (ID 14651).
Whinnery, J. and Whinnery, A. (1990). Acceleration-Induced Loss of Consciousness: A Review of 500 Episodes. Archives of Neurology, 47 (7): 764-776.
Kihlstrom, J. and Cork, R. (2007). Anesthesia. In: Velmans, M. & Schneider, S. (eds.). The Blackwell Companion to Consciousness. Oxford, UK: Blackwell.
Windt, J., Nielsen, T. and Thompson, E. (2016). Does Consciousness Disappear in Dreamless Sleep? Trends in Cognitive Sciences, 20 (12): 871-882.
Kastrup, Bernardo. The Idea of the World. John Hunt Publishing. Kindle Edition.
If a person has no sensation, no thoughts, no emotions, etc, then they are unconscious.
And yes, a person can exist and not be conscious. That happens to me every night when I sleep.
Everyone experiences infinite consciousness in deep sleep, which is devoid of space-time-objects iand so appears as if unconscious. In that same ground of apparent unconsciousness of deep sleep come up a) Dream state comprising subtle-mental self and corresponding world and b) Waking state comprising gross bodily self and a corresponding world. The self is that consciousness which links these three states.
Some folks may on reflecting upon the above everyday empirical experience immediately intuit the conscious self is itself pure consciousness empty of contents and is also the seer of all that appears and disappears in consciousness. When objects appear, mind appears to become conscious (as in dream and waking states). When consciousness is devoid of objects, nothing is known. ‘Not knowing anything is not absence of consciousness.
But most people will not be able to intuit that deep sleep state is not ‘unconscious’ but appears so to mind owing to absence of reflecting objects/contrasts. For these people an objective world can exist without consciousness. But these folks, conclude absence absence of ‘consciousness’ in case of personal phenomenal experience. As if mind itself is the consciousness. As if reflection in a mirror is the real man. As if non-cognition by a mentally-sensually deficient person would mean absence of consciousness.
Such people will assume that deep sleep or fainting means absence of consciousness. The idea is that, when we faint or undergo general anesthesia, or enter deep sleep, we become seemingly unconscious. Yet, we do not cease to exist because of it, which may seem to contradict the idealist tenet that our body is the extrinsic appearance of conscious inner life. The misconception here is a conflation of consciousness proper with reflection of it in mind. Consciousness is a continuum where some levels are connected to awareness and others are not, extending down to levels that are eventually very basic and non-reflective.
To report an experience—such as making a decision to act or seeing danger ahead—to another or to oneself, one has to both (a) have the experience and (b) know that one has the experience. Self reflection is just a particular configuration of consciousness, whereby consciousness turns in upon itself to experience knowledge of its own phenomenality.
Empirical data indeed shows that episodes of seeming unconsciousness are associated with an impairment of memory access or lack of reflection, but not necessarily with absence of phenomenality.
For example, fainting caused by asphyxiation, strangulation or hyperventilation is known to correlate with euphoria, euphoria, insights and visions (Neal 2008: 310-315, Rhinewine & Williams 2007, Retz 2007). G-force-induced loss of consciousness (G-LOC) is also known to correlate with “memorable dreams” (Whinnery & Whinnery 1990). There is even evidence for “implicit perception” during general anaesthesia (Kihlstrom & Cork 2007).
Sleep, again, is known to correlate with dreams and also with non-recallable phenomenality distinct from dreams. Windt, Nielsen & Thompson 2016: 871 state “..there are good empirical and theoretical reasons for saying that a range of different types of sleep experience, some of which are distinct from dreaming, can occur in all stages of sleep“. Authors identify three different categories of sleep experiences distinct from dreams: (a) non-immersive imagery and sleep thinking, (b) perceptions and bodily sensations, and (c) ‘selfless’ states and contentless sleep experiences that may be similar to those reported by experienced meditators.
So, one may experience unconscious episodes due to poor recollection of memory or due to absence of objects in consciousness.
References:
Neal, RM (2008). The Path to Addiction: “And Other Troubles We Are Born to Know.” Bloomington, IN: AuthorHouse.
Rhinewine, JP and Williams, OJ (2007). Holotropic Breathwork: The Potential Role of a Prolonged, Voluntary Hyperventilation Procedure as an Adjunct to Psychotherapy. The Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine, 13 (7): 771-776.
Retz (2007). Tripping without drugs: Experience with hyperventilation (ID 14651).
Whinnery, J. and Whinnery, A. (1990). Acceleration-Induced Loss of Consciousness: A Review of 500 Episodes. Archives of Neurology, 47 (7): 764-776.
Kihlstrom, J. and Cork, R. (2007). Anesthesia. In: Velmans, M. & Schneider, S. (eds.). The Blackwell Companion to Consciousness. Oxford, UK: Blackwell.
Windt, J., Nielsen, T. and Thompson, E. (2016). Does Consciousness Disappear in Dreamless Sleep? Trends in Cognitive Sciences, 20 (12): 871-882.
Kastrup, Bernardo. The Idea of the World. John Hunt Publishing. Kindle Edition.
Some folks may on reflecting upon the above everyday empirical experience immediately intuit the conscious self is itself pure consciousness empty of contents and is also the seer of all that appears and disappears in consciousness. When objects appear, mind appears to become conscious (as in dream and waking states). When consciousness is devoid of objects, nothing is known. ‘Not knowing anything is not absence of consciousness.
But most people will not be able to intuit that deep sleep state is not ‘unconscious’ but appears so to mind owing to absence of reflecting objects/contrasts. For these people an objective world can exist without consciousness. But these folks, conclude absence absence of ‘consciousness’ in case of personal phenomenal experience. As if mind itself is the consciousness. As if reflection in a mirror is the real man. As if non-cognition by a mentally-sensually deficient person would mean absence of consciousness.
Such people will assume that deep sleep or fainting means absence of consciousness. The idea is that, when we faint or undergo general anesthesia, or enter deep sleep, we become seemingly unconscious. Yet, we do not cease to exist because of it, which may seem to contradict the idealist tenet that our body is the extrinsic appearance of conscious inner life. The misconception here is a conflation of consciousness proper with reflection of it in mind. Consciousness is a continuum where some levels are connected to awareness and others are not, extending down to levels that are eventually very basic and non-reflective.
To report an experience—such as making a decision to act or seeing danger ahead—to another or to oneself, one has to both (a) have the experience and (b) know that one has the experience. Self reflection is just a particular configuration of consciousness, whereby consciousness turns in upon itself to experience knowledge of its own phenomenality.
Empirical data indeed shows that episodes of seeming unconsciousness are associated with an impairment of memory access or lack of reflection, but not necessarily with absence of phenomenality.
For example, fainting caused by asphyxiation, strangulation or hyperventilation is known to correlate with euphoria, euphoria, insights and visions (Neal 2008: 310-315, Rhinewine & Williams 2007, Retz 2007). G-force-induced loss of consciousness (G-LOC) is also known to correlate with “memorable dreams” (Whinnery & Whinnery 1990). There is even evidence for “implicit perception” during general anaesthesia (Kihlstrom & Cork 2007).
Sleep, again, is known to correlate with dreams and also with non-recallable phenomenality distinct from dreams. Windt, Nielsen & Thompson 2016: 871 state “..there are good empirical and theoretical reasons for saying that a range of different types of sleep experience, some of which are distinct from dreaming, can occur in all stages of sleep“. Authors identify three different categories of sleep experiences distinct from dreams: (a) non-immersive imagery and sleep thinking, (b) perceptions and bodily sensations, and (c) ‘selfless’ states and contentless sleep experiences that may be similar to those reported by experienced meditators.
So, one may experience unconscious episodes due to poor recollection of memory or due to absence of objects in consciousness.
References:
Neal, RM (2008). The Path to Addiction: “And Other Troubles We Are Born to Know.” Bloomington, IN: AuthorHouse.
Rhinewine, JP and Williams, OJ (2007). Holotropic Breathwork: The Potential Role of a Prolonged, Voluntary Hyperventilation Procedure as an Adjunct to Psychotherapy. The Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine, 13 (7): 771-776.
Retz (2007). Tripping without drugs: Experience with hyperventilation (ID 14651).
Whinnery, J. and Whinnery, A. (1990). Acceleration-Induced Loss of Consciousness: A Review of 500 Episodes. Archives of Neurology, 47 (7): 764-776.
Kihlstrom, J. and Cork, R. (2007). Anesthesia. In: Velmans, M. & Schneider, S. (eds.). The Blackwell Companion to Consciousness. Oxford, UK: Blackwell.
Windt, J., Nielsen, T. and Thompson, E. (2016). Does Consciousness Disappear in Dreamless Sleep? Trends in Cognitive Sciences, 20 (12): 871-882.
Kastrup, Bernardo. The Idea of the World. John Hunt Publishing. Kindle Edition.
All I can say is that if you see deep sleep as being a form of consciousness, then you have a *very* different notion of what the word 'consciousness' means than I do.
For me, almost by definition, deep sleep is unconscious.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
An unconscious person is not dead but is living which is more than just existing. Such a person wakes up with some unusual noise or if something odd happens around, so his consciousness is there, however small it is.
Regards
That is true and what you say is the perception of 99% of ego selves. But it was already explained that one may experience unconscious episodes due to poor recollection of memory or due to absence of objects in consciousness. In deep sleep, there is no reflection of any duality in mind. Consciousness remains un-partitioned. There is no "I" and "Other". Conventionally this seems like unconsciousness to 99% of folks. But adept meditators know that state as pure consciousness, uncontaminated by a notion of local self and other objects different from the local self.
I repeat that everyone actually unknowingly experiences infinite consciousness in deep sleep. In that same ground of apparent unconsciousness of deep sleep come up a) Dream state comprising subtle-mental self and corresponding world and b) Waking state comprising gross bodily self and a corresponding world. The self is that consciousness which links these three states.
Some folks may on reflecting upon the above everyday empirical experience immediately intuit that the conscious self is itself pure consciousness empty of contents and is also the seer of all that appears and disappears in consciousness. When objects appear, mind appears to become conscious (as in dream and waking states). When consciousness is devoid of objects, nothing is known. ‘Not knowing anything is not absence of consciousness.
But as for most people deep sleep state is ‘unconscious’, I presented some empirical evidences that indicate that consciousness is not absent -- only objects are absent. Probably, you did not pay full attention to those references. I am, in this post, repeating conclusion from a study by Windt, J., Nielsen, T. and Thompson, E. of 2016. The study concludes: “..there are good empirical and theoretical reasons for saying that a range of different types of sleep experience, some of which are distinct from dreaming, can occur in all stages of sleep“.
Authors identify three different categories of sleep experiences distinct from dreams: (a) non-immersive imagery and sleep thinking, (b) perceptions and bodily sensations, and (c) ‘selfless’ states and content-less sleep experiences that may be similar to those reported by experienced meditators.
Reference:
Windt, J., Nielsen, T. and Thompson, E. (2016). Does Consciousness Disappear in Dreamless Sleep? Trends in Cognitive Sciences, 20 (12): 871-882.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1364661316301528
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Well, I'll use the word like 99% of people do, then. You have yet to demonstrate that 'consciousness is un-partitioned', which I assume just means that there are not states of unconsciousness.
What about being in a coma? Is that consciousness also?
I
Well, you make a claim about 'infinite consciousness', but that is all you made. In no way did you support that claim or show why anyone would believe it.
I would simply say that we are unconscious and don't 'experience' anything at all. The brain is still monitoring, but there is no actual consciousness there.
Again, this only shows you use a very different definition of the term 'consciousness' than I do. I'm not convinced there is a coherent concept behind what you are saying, somethng to tie everything together, so to speak. But I am willing to be convinced if you actually supply some evidence.
OK/ Even so, I would say we are unconscious during sleep.
OK, so it seems to me that the goal of meditation is a type of unconsciousness. It is potentially one of the unconscious states seen in sleep.
Yes. Mind is unconscious during sleep. That does not mean that consciousness is absent, else the same person would not dream and wake up and remember "I slept blissfully".
So, do you imagine that meditators are all aiming for unconsciousness? You are wrong. Non dual experience is the pinnacle of successful meditation and it entails full consciousness of the partition-less awareness -- also called waking deep sleep. Sustained experience leads to freedom from any and all kinds of imagined pain that arise due to false identification of one's awareness with body-mind.
At least you must accept that deep sleep may involve: (a) non-immersive imagery and sleep thinking, (b) perceptions and bodily sensations, and (c) ‘selfless’ states and content-less sleep experiences that may be similar to those reported by experienced meditators.
I don't see why not. It is the same biological person, the same brain. Simply being non-conscious doesn't mean non-existent or dead.
That is just a different experience. Whether you interpret that experience correctly is one thing I doubt.
I agree that there can be states similar to partial anesthesia that are present during some phases of deep sleep. I would not call them conscious.
If consciousness is absent, how the continuity is maintained? By whom? How the 'bliss' of deep[ sleep is remembered in mind? Please do not start your pet dialogue about phenomenon-less matter (neurons) giving rise to phenomenal experience of bliss.
I agree that there can be states similar to partial anesthesia that are present during some phases of deep sleep. I would not call them conscious.[/QUOTE]
You confound 'sensations-thoughts-feelings' that arise in consciousness rooted in local body-mind with the consciousness itself. I do not.
Consciousness has both potential and dynamic states and meditation is meant to help us realize its intrinsic nature by stripping away the layers of thoughts that cover up the object-less consciousness.
You can never explain/prove that phenomenal 'sensations-thoughts-feelings' arise from neurons. OTOH, there are now enough empirical evidences that suggest that consciousness is non local ontological primitive and brains are a 'Bayesian filters' that instantiate particular and unique local experience patterns. I do not need these empirical evidences since I have direct meditation experiences. Empirical evidences may however generate some healthy skepticism regarding too naïve materialistic view of consciousness in some readers.
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Well, the continuity is because we have the same biological being. Why would that NOT provide continuity?
Well, what is the *definition* of consciousness? Having experiences, meaning thoughts, sensations, and feelings. So if those don't exist, neither does consciousness.
Again, you have a different definition than I do. What is *your* definition of the term 'consciousness'? For *me*, it means having thoughts, sensations, feelings, etc.
On the contrary, the evidence points to consciousness arising in the brain. it is simply a form of information processing, I disagree with your bolded statement.
cladking
Well-Known Member
Different parts of the brain/ body take turns sleeping. This is apparently preprogrammed into the species as a sort
of maintenance subroutine. Parts that are sleeping are not inert and can still perform their normal function on a
moment's notice. Indeed, sleep is not at all the end of ability to function but merely cessation of ongoing and con-
stant activity. While the olfactory senses sleep they can still wake you if there is smoke. This allows the individual
the ability to sleep through a thunderstorm but still awaken if there's an intruder.
One remarkable aspect of sleep is the ability to process information so that the individual can arrive at solutions
to very complex questions. Most questions are not soluble through logic, math, or computer programming because
these are all analog and the world is digital. I believe the brain hasn't always been operated the way it is now by our
analog language which has taken over most of the higher brain functions. When we sleep these functions shut down
and the rest of the brain will process the information. This is essentially what it means when someone says they will
"sleep on it".
It's not only the brain which is "conscious" but other parts of the brain/ body as well. The individual simply doesn't
experience all these consciousnesses because it would be "confusing" and lead to delays as the legs have to be talked
into running from a threat. We are wired to not "hear" or "sense" any consciousness but the "summation" that oc-
curs principally in higher brain functions and controlled by the amygdala (et al). This wiring is controlled by lan-
guage which is distinct from other animals and our forebearers. Language is programming and using our program-
ing we can't separate the seer from the seen directly. We see our beliefs (models) so to see anything we build models.
To separate the seer from the seen requires we build these new models.
You are repeating same statements. I have answered to these questions many times. To know continuity through three states: waking, dreaming, and sleeping, there must be ability for cognition/discernment. There must be a single conscious agent that exists and knows these states. The knowledge "I slept blissfully" indicates a phenomenality in the knowing.
No one has ever explained how phenomenality and power of cognition can rise in neurons.
Yes. In deep sleep, there is experience of lack of objects and experience of bliss, which floods mind as the organism wakes up. Ignorant fixed minds even after repeatedly being told do not recognize this. But introspective and /or mediators immediately understand this. I have also cited a paper which indicates presence of phenomenal consciousness in non dream sleep. You are so fixed in your bias that you ignore and refuse even scientific evidences.
Bulls. Information processing does not automatically become conscious agent. Information processing does not create a Seer/Self.
You show me one mechanism of how we feel pain. How electrical signals are felt as pain and not as smell of garlic. OTOH, given, consciousness as the non dual ontological primitive, the hard problem of consciousness needs no separate explanation and all physical laws remain valid.
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I disagree. The 'being' that knows this is the biological being that has memory. Some memories are produced during dreaming and so we know of them. But the continuity between waking states is simply because we have memories of previous waking states. This is shown in those unfortunate individuals who do NOT produce short term memories and do NOT have such a feeling of continuity to the past (because they don't remember that past).
When I say 'I slept blissfully', I mean that I went to sleep and now I am awake and refreshed. I certainly am not talking about some conscious state while asleep.
The power of cognition is simply an ability to process information. Is that really so hard to understand that neurons can do that? The 'phenomeology' is simply a by-product of that processing and which parts of the brain are informed.
Again, I really fail to see the fundamental problem.
Your paper claimed other states similar to dreaming where some information processing is done. I might believe such exist and that memories are not laid down during such times. So what? That doesn't prove your bolded statement by a long shot.
Why not? It is that particular brain that is doing the processing, so that is the 'seer'. It is *self-aware* so, it is the self. That is just a type of information processing.
Do you want me to track the nerve signal from the receptor in the skin all the way to the areas of the brain that produce the emotional and physical responses? I can do that, but I have a feeling that won't be enough for you.
OK, let's start here.
Do you agree that neurons can process information?
Do you agree that they can store information?
Do you agree that they get information from the senses?
Do you agree that memory is the ability to store and retrieve information?
Do you agree that awareness is the ability to process and store information?
For me, I answer yes to all of these. And I fail to see what else is required for consciousness.
Truly Enlightened
Well-Known Member
Maybe you can explain the difference between the conscious mind, the subconscious mind, the unconscious mind, and consciousness itself? Since all forms of consciousness, are the emergent properties of a living organism, what are the genetic links?
These are evidences that neocons generate consciousness?
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osgart
Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Studying the brain will not help anybody explain experiencing pain or love, personhood, or anything regarded as spiritual.
Methodological naturalism will get you an endless amount of facts, but never any explanation of the experience of consciousness.
I see no need to bring science into the spiritual realm because it can not exist there.
Science and spirituality are entirely separate conversations. Two realities that have no relation or grasp on each other.
The spiritual is known by subjective discovery. Science forever remains outside of that.
Its like trying to explain the value of a dollar bill by exploring the ink and paper.
Methodological naturalism will get you an endless amount of facts, but never any explanation of the experience of consciousness.
I see no need to bring science into the spiritual realm because it can not exist there.
Science and spirituality are entirely separate conversations. Two realities that have no relation or grasp on each other.
The spiritual is known by subjective discovery. Science forever remains outside of that.
Its like trying to explain the value of a dollar bill by exploring the ink and paper.