• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Why Bahai

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
They have not understood the main thing that there is no God or Soul. But they cannot accept that because Bahaism depends on the self-professed divine mission of Bahaullah (of course, there is that visit by 'Maid of Heaven', if someone wants to take that as a proof).

Whether there is a God or a soul is a matter of religious belief, and independent of the question of science.

There is no proof anything except in logic and math. Above all science does not prove anything.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Interesting. Do you mean that God created everything? Or there are somethings that evolved or came up naturally? Without divine intervention! Please be kind enough to clarify.

Evolution came about by natural methods, environment, and the Laws of Nature determined by God. This view is often called Theistic Evolution.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Also stop the rain when it is causing havoc. China, India, Spain and many other countries are reeling under floods (as also typhoons and earthquakes). The death count here exceeds 1,000. It is middle of September and it is still raining cats and dogs. That is what a loving God does. But then, the Muslims are right. Allah is testing people.
Human_deaths_due_to_floods_in_2019%2C_till_16_August..jpg
0609flap1.jpg


There are also the 'suffering is good for you', and the 'punishment for evil ways' ideas, and more. There have been a few threads on 'Why does a loving God allow so much suffering?" on RF.

So I'll take this over there so not to derail the OP's thread. Sounds like he's learning some stuff here.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
I have a few things to say brother. But not in this thread because I honestly didnt know much about the Bahai faith. I have learned through the years that one could read the scripture and books to understand something but there is nothing like human interaction to get the human feel of things. If not trust me from the time I began this thread I have already bought a few books by Bahai's. I already have their Kithab I akdhas or the Holy book, in the original arabic and in English for reference, plus respectable Effendi's writings among others. But I do not wish to offend anyone in this thread so I shall not reflect upon my reservations. The Bahai faith to me now is more of a philosophy that builds a faith based on gathering the whole of humanity under one banner. It is not an Islamic or Christian faith. In fact, it is not a denomination of any faith. It is the culmination or/and continuation of all faiths. All of these faiths have the same origin, more like the perennial philosophy but were misguided and 'corrupted' through time as people are like that. So the Bahai faith is here to anoint all and unite under one banner of a theology. I have changed my understanding now to know that Bab and Bahauallah are incarnations of God himself as per their theology and all of those faiths that believed in a future saviour kind of eschatology were all referring to Bahaullah one way or another. Just that their definitions and understandings of the figure differed but in fact they were all referring to the same person. Maithree of the Buddha included.

This is what I understand and what has been communicated here. Agree or not, I am trying to understand it.

Peace.

Hi firedragon. Welcome. I’ve been away and just noticed this thread so I’m not up with everything. I’m a member of the Baha’i Faith for 45 years but still not a Baha’i yet if you get my drift. I’d like to share a simple understanding with you Of how I understand my religion.

There is only one religion of God that was supposed to evolve throughout the ages but leaders divided and corrupted it each taking spoils for himself.

Let’s begin with say Krishna. I believe th world is like a school both materially and spiritually. So followers of Krishna were taught certain truths and given laws for their age. And Krishna said that when religion decays as everything does in this world, He will reappear and establish religion again, so then He returned in the human form of Buddha if all the followers of Krishna had recognised His return in Buddha they would all have accept Buddha and God’s religion would have remained only one religion.

Then next Jesus arrived. Buddha spoke of future Buddha’s. Now if all the followers of Buddha would have seen the spiritual signs of Buddha in Jesus then they would have all believed in Him. Then the religion would have advanced and progressed still as one religion with accumulated knowledge of all the previous Educators.

Then Christ said soon after Him another would come meaning Muhammad. Now if Christians had understood the spiritual signs and qualities of Muhammad they would have understood He was the One Christ refered to and accepted Him and the religion of God would still have remained one religion.

Now in the Quran two major events are foretold. Two ‘blows of the trumpet.’ Which signalise the entrance of a King but as the Quran is a spiritual Book this refers to Two Spiritual Kings to appear which we believe refers to the Bab and Baha’u’llah. Now had the Muslims understood these signs and accepted these Spiritual Kings then to this day there would still only be one religion on earth.

That leaders due to want of power and greed rejected the next Educator caused divisions amongst humanity so we see today that instead of one united religion we see thousands of broken, divided sects each antagonistic and hostile to one another.

Baha’u’llah has come to reunite us all.

He said ‘This is the changeless Faith Of God, changeless in the past changeless in the future’

So Baha’is accept rather than deny our past. We accept all the past Prophets, Messengers and Educators of humanity.

regard ye not one another as strangers. Ye are the fruits of one tree, and the leaves of one branch. (Baha’u’llah)



 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
Did the Son of Man come in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory? And did the angels come with the great sound of a trumpet? Any evidence of that? Bahaullah was either in jail or in exile depending upon the mercy of the governments of that place. Bab too claimed to be a manifestation of Allah.
There is no misrepresentation of other creeds. Both Krishna and Buddha unequivocally, in their own Holy Scriptures, prophesy.
That is absolute falsehood where Hindus are concerned. Like Krishna, Buddha too is an avatara of Lord Vishnu for us. They are not two people but one. Furthermore, the time when the next avatara would appear is clearly mentioned in the books (though I do not believe in all that clap-trap). It is at the end of this eon (Kaliyuga) and that is going to last for another 426,879 years. Anyone who claims to be an avatara before that time will be an imposter for Hindus.

We are good at time keeping. This is the year 5121 of Kaliyuga Calendar starting from 3,102 BCE (end of Krishna avatara), and the duration of Kaliyuga is 432,000 years. So, no avatara for another 426,879 years.
 
Last edited:

firedragon

Veteran Member
Hi firedragon. Welcome. I’ve been away and just noticed this thread so I’m not up with everything. I’m a member of the Baha’i Faith for 45 years but still not a Baha’i yet if you get my drift. I’d like to share a simple understanding with you Of how I understand my religion.

There is only one religion of God that was supposed to evolve throughout the ages but leaders divided and corrupted it each taking spoils for himself.

Let’s begin with say Krishna. I believe th world is like a school both materially and spiritually. So followers of Krishna were taught certain truths and given laws for their age. And Krishna said that when religion decays as everything does in this world, He will reappear and establish religion again, so then He returned in the human form of Buddha if all the followers of Krishna had recognised His return in Buddha they would all have accept Buddha and God’s religion would have remained only one religion.

Then next Jesus arrived. Buddha spoke of future Buddha’s. Now if all the followers of Buddha would have seen the spiritual signs of Buddha in Jesus then they would have all believed in Him. Then the religion would have advanced and progressed still as one religion with accumulated knowledge of all the previous Educators.

Then Christ said soon after Him another would come meaning Muhammad. Now if Christians had understood the spiritual signs and qualities of Muhammad they would have understood He was the One Christ refered to and accepted Him and the religion of God would still have remained one religion.

Now in the Quran two major events are foretold. Two ‘blows of the trumpet.’ Which signalise the entrance of a King but as the Quran is a spiritual Book this refers to Two Spiritual Kings to appear which we believe refers to the Bab and Baha’u’llah. Now had the Muslims understood these signs and accepted these Spiritual Kings then to this day there would still only be one religion on earth.

That leaders due to want of power and greed rejected the next Educator caused divisions amongst humanity so we see today that instead of one united religion we see thousands of broken, divided sects each antagonistic and hostile to one another.

Baha’u’llah has come to reunite us all.

He said ‘This is the changeless Faith Of God, changeless in the past changeless in the future’

So Baha’is accept rather than deny our past. We accept all the past Prophets, Messengers and Educators of humanity.

regard ye not one another as strangers. Ye are the fruits of one tree, and the leaves of one branch. (Baha’u’llah)


Thanks for your very kind explanation. I really appreciate it.

Please make one thing clear if you dont mind. Are you speaking of all of this in your post with scriptural teachings or teachings of who you consider are authorities. Like people.

Hope you understand my question.

Now lets take what you said about the Buddha and the return of a Buddha. You meant coming of the "Other" Buddha. Not return of the same Buddha. Siddhartha is "Shunya" now. Doesn't exist. So he cannot return as a reincarnation.

Anyway, keeping that aside, when you speak of the future Buddha, which literature are you speaking of? When you say "Buddha said" or your exact quote "Buddha spoke of future Buddha’s", where did Buddha say that? Do you understand my question? The coming of Maithri Buddha is a concept but not found in lets say the Tipitaka that is the most authentic literature attributed to inherited tradition of the Buddha. So there is no record of such a teaching. Unless you believe in a statue that is dated to 500 BC and people believe that is the coming Maithri Buddha. But that is a latter attribution and people said. Not their scripture.

So when you say this, the Buddhas coming, are you saying that "the Buddha said this, and you know he said because your scripture (e.g. Kithab I Akdhas) said so"? Or are you making that statement based on Buddhist scripture? Or is it only a teaching of the theology by elders or piers.

I hope my question is clear and you could explain briefly.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Just a small note. The correct spelling is 'Maitreya'. Otherwise, carry on. :)

Sure. Thats the English spelling right? Anyway, I am not direct speaker of Sanskrit. But I am sure the English spelling is similar to the Hindi pronunciation but yet lacking the "th" sound not "t", also though its "e" there it should be pronounced "I".

Phonetically (as far as I know) it should be pronounced MYTHRIY.

But of course open for correction because it is an ancient Indian language and I am no Indian.
 

arthra

Baha'i
Ah. I understand. Quite a prominent Muslim argument as well. Bottomline is, God created the universe.

Anyway, thanks for clarifying.

"Emanate" may be more correct...

"....all creatures emanate from God -- that is to say, it is by God that all things are realized, and by Him that all beings have attained to existence. The first thing which emanated from God is that universal reality, which the ancient philosophers termed the "First Mind," and which the people of Baha call the "First Will." This emanation, in that which concerns its action in the world of God, is not limited by time or place; it is without beginning or end -- beginning and end in relation to God are one. The preexistence of God is the preexistence of essence, and also preexistence of time, and the phenomenality of contingency is essential and not temporal, as we have already explained one day at table.[1]
[1 Cf. "Real Preexistence," p. 280.]
Though the "First Mind" is without beginning, it does not become a sharer in the preexistence of God, for the existence of the universal reality in relation to the existence of God is nothingness, and it has not the power to become an associate of God and like unto Him in preexistence. This subject has been before explained."


~ Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 203
 

arthra

Baha'i
Sure. Thats the English spelling right? Anyway, I am not direct speaker of Sanskrit. But I am sure the English spelling is similar to the Hindi pronunciation but yet lacking the "th" sound not "t", also though its "e" there it should be pronounced "I". Phonetically (as far as I know) it should be pronounced MYTHRIY.
But of course open for correction because it is an ancient Indian language and I am no Indian.

I recommend a book "Buddha Maitrya-Amitabha Has Appeared" by Jamshed Fozdar
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I recommend a book "Buddha Maitrya-Amitabha Has Appeared" by Jamshed Fozdar

I haven't read it. But maybe in the future.

Unless you can derive direct Buddhist scriptural references from it and quote me. I know about the Buddhist scripture that speaks of Maithri Buddha. I have read them. But of course, I reject them. I have my reasons. What I wish to know is if the theology behind the Buddhas return etc being scriptural or personal teaching. Is it written in the Kithab I Akdhas? I understand your belief, but where does it come from? As far as I can see its not in the original kithab I akdhas, but its in explanations. I find the Buddhas return written in the Bahai books explanations. Bayan 140?I dont know what that is really but its called Bayan 143, just before the Zakath matter.

But if you go to the Buddhist scripture, this Maithri Buddhas coming is written in the Theega Nikaya, which is one of the 5 Nikayas. It means Discussions. Theega Nikaya or Deega Nikaya means long or lengthy discussion. In that the reference if you read its quite a maze. You should read them directly.

Nevertheless, for a long time, philologists and scholars have understood this 5 nikaayas to be extrapolation due to the linguistic style, the narration style etc that are completely different to the normal way the whole Sutta Pitaka is narrated.

But if you have Bab or Bahauallah directly quoting this in the holy book, then that's your theology and I will concede as "I understand".

What I would like is brother for you to give me direct references and answers. But, I shall try and read this book one day.

"Emanate" may be more correct...

"....all creatures emanate from God -- that is to say, it is by God that all things are realized, and by Him that all beings have attained to existence. The first thing which emanated from God is that universal reality, which the ancient philosophers termed the "First Mind," and which the people of Baha call the "First Will." This emanation, in that which concerns its action in the world of God, is not limited by time or place; it is without beginning or end -- beginning and end in relation to God are one. The preexistence of God is the preexistence of essence, and also preexistence of time, and the phenomenality of contingency is essential and not temporal, as we have already explained one day at table.[1]
[1 Cf. "Real Preexistence," p. 280.]
Though the "First Mind" is without beginning, it does not become a sharer in the preexistence of God, for the existence of the universal reality in relation to the existence of God is nothingness, and it has not the power to become an associate of God and like unto Him in preexistence. This subject has been before explained."


~ Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 203

I understand.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Then, accept what an Indian says. There is no 'th' sound in Maitreya and 'e' is to be pronounced as in 'sale'.

There is no "th" sound? Its pronounced "T"?

Sorry brother. I dont agree. Because Maithriy means friend or honest friend. From Mithra. Mithraya means friend. Its definitely not "T". Brother, do you think Tusita is pronounced Tusita? This is the heaven described in many Buddhist stories. Its pronounced "Thusitha".

Don't agree.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
I recommend a book "Buddha Maitrya-Amitabha Has Appeared" by Jamshed Fozdar
:) Jamshed Fozdar is a Zoroastrian. I would not expect him to know the Sanskrit spellings well. Even his name is wrongly spelled. It would be 'Faujdar' (Officer in the army) in Urdu and Hindi. But that is his choice.

Well, Mithra also is incorrect in Sanskrit. It is 'Mitra'. Yes, 'Mitra' means friend and 'Maitrī' means friendship. As Wikipedia says 'Mithra' is the Avestan pronunciation.
Mitra - Wikipedia

"Maitreya (Sanskrit), Metteyya (Pali), is regarded as a future Buddha of this world in Buddhist eschatology."
Maitreya - Wikipedia

"Tu****a (Sanskrit) or Tusita (Pali) meaning "realm, contentment" is the fourth of the six deva or heavenly realms of Kamadhatu, .."
To pronounce or write it as "Thusitha" would not be very correct. From here we get the Sanskrit/Hindi word 'Tushti' which means satisfaction/fulfillment. The root of the word 'Santosha' also is the same and it means contentment. Pali has many words derived from Sanskrit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu****a

What you agree with and what you disagree with is your choice.
 
Last edited:

firedragon

Veteran Member
Well, Mithra also is incorrect in Sanskrit. It is 'Mitra'.

Brother. I dont know why you have pulled in a new argument about a word.

You are absolutely wrong. It's Mithra. Its not Mitra. People may write Mitra, but its pronounced Mithra. How do you say friendship? It will be written Mitratwa in English. But it's Mithrathwa. "TH" sound. As in "thanks" or "thought".

Just like saying Atita. Its Athitha ("th" pronunciation as in the word "think").
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Oh, there definitely is.

Every religion in history claims to fullfile previous religions. The Baha'i Faith considers ancient religions relevant to the time they were revealed, and restores certain beliefs such as absolute Monotheism, and yes disagrees with the laws of older religions like concerning slavery as no longer relevant in the contemporary world.
 
Last edited:

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
"Emanate" may be more correct..
If all creatures emanate from Allah, then each one of them is a manifestation. All humans, all animals and all vegetation. That is correct if one goes by 'Advaita'. 'Advaita' says that even the non-living things are Brahman. Basically, there is nothing other than Brahman in the universe.

You have anthropomorphized 'what exists' (Brahman, the substrate of the universe, in Hindu parlance) into a God and have given him properties which may not be there. Do you really know what it is or just making guesses?
 
Top