Is there a safe place in your synagogue, church, or mosque for "the Intersex"?

What are "the Intersex"?

What is intersex? | Intersex Society of North America

• “Intersex” is a general term used for a variety of conditions in which a person is born with a reproductive or sexual anatomy that doesn’t seem to fit the typical definitions of female or male. For example, a person might be born appearing to be female on the outside, but having mostly male-typical anatomy on the inside. Or a person may be born with genitals that seem to be in-between the usual male and female types—for example, a girl may be born with a noticeably large clitoris, or lacking a vaginal opening, or a boy may be born with a notably small penis, or with a scrotum that is divided so that it has formed more like labia. Or a person may be born with mosaic genetics, so that some of her cells have XX chromosomes and some of them have XY.
  
  Though we speak of intersex as an inborn condition, intersex anatomy doesn’t always show up at birth. Sometimes a person isn’t found to have intersex anatomy until she or he reaches the age of puberty, or finds himself an infertile adult, or dies of old age and is autopsied. Some people live and die with intersex anatomy without anyone (including themselves) ever knowing.
  
  Which variations of sexual anatomy count as intersex? In practice, different people have different answers to that question. That’s not surprising, because intersex isn’t a discreet or natural category.
  
  What does this mean? Intersex is a socially constructed category that reflects real biological variation. To better explain this, we can liken the sex spectrum to the color spectrum. There’s no question that in nature there are different wavelengths that translate into colors most of us see as red, blue, orange, yellow. But the decision to distinguish, say, between orange and red-orange is made only when we need it—like when we’re asking for a particular paint color. Sometimes social necessity leads us to make color distinctions that otherwise would seem incorrect or irrational, as, for instance, when we call certain people “black” or “white” when they’re not especially black or white as we would otherwise use the terms.
  
  In the same way, nature presents us with sex anatomy spectrums. Breasts, penises, clitorises, scrotums, labia, gonads—all of these vary in size and shape and morphology. So-called “sex” chromosomes can vary quite a bit, too. But in human cultures, sex categories get simplified into male, female, and sometimes intersex, in order to simplify social interactions, express what we know and feel, and maintain order.
  
  So nature doesn’t decide where the category of “male” ends and the category of “intersex” begins, or where the category of “intersex” ends and the category of “female” begins. Humans decide. Humans (today, typically doctors) decide how small a penis has to be, or how unusual a combination of parts has to be, before it counts as intersex. Humans decide whether a person with XXY chromosomes or XY chromosomes and androgen insensitivity will count as intersex.

Who are "the Intersex"?

• How common is intersex?
  To answer this question in an uncontroversial way, you’d have to first get everyone to agree on what counts as intersex —and also to agree on what should count as strictly male or strictly female. That’s hard to do. How small does a penis have to be before it counts as intersex? Do you count “sex chromosome” anomalies as intersex if there’s no apparent external sexual ambiguity?1 (Alice Dreger explores this question in greater depth in her book Hermaphrodites and the Medical Invention of Sex.)
  
  Here’s what we do know: If you ask experts at medical centers how often a child is born so noticeably atypical in terms of genitalia that a specialist in sex differentiation is called in, the number comes out to about 1 in 1500 to 1 in 2000 births. But a lot more people than that are born with subtler forms of sex anatomy variations, some of which won’t show up until later in life.
  
  Below we provide a summary of statistics drawn from an article by Brown University researcher Anne Fausto-Sterling.2 The basis for that article was an extensive review of the medical literature from 1955 to 1998 aimed at producing numeric estimates for the frequency of sex variations. Note that the frequency of some of these conditions, such as congenital adrenal hyperplasia, differs for different populations. These statistics are approximations.
  
  Not XX and not XY one in 1,666 births
  Klinefelter (XXY) one in 1,000 births
  Androgen insensitivity syndrome one in 13,000 births
  Partial androgen insensitivity syndrome one in 130,000 births
  Classical congenital adrenal hyperplasia one in 13,000 births
  Late onset adrenal hyperplasia one in 66 individuals
  Vaginal agenesis one in 6,000 births
  Ovotestes one in 83,000 births
  Idiopathic (no discernable medical cause) one in 110,000 births
  Iatrogenic (caused by medical treatment, for instance progestin administered to pregnant mother) no estimate
  5 alpha reductase deficiency no estimate
  Mixed gonadal dysgenesis no estimate
  Complete gonadal dysgenesis one in 150,000 births
  Hypospadias (urethral opening in perineum or along penile shaft) one in 2,000 births
  Hypospadias (urethral opening between corona and tip of glans penis) one in 770 births
  
  Total number of people whose bodies differ from standard male or female one in 100 births
  Total number of people receiving surgery to “normalize” genital appearance one or two in 1,000 births

"The Intersex" are our fellow countrymen, our neighbors, our kinfolk, and maybe, just maybe, you or your children. Given the statistics, I wonder:

Surely the whole entire synagogue, church, or mosque should be a safe place for the intersex?

Eddi said:

Surely the whole entire synagogue, church, or mosque should be a safe place for the intersex?

Click to expand...

You would think so, wouldn't you?
But here I am, 70+ years old, just realizing how little I know about the intersex, and my father was a Lutheran preacher.
I didn't learn about the intersex at home, in public school, or at church.
How safe do I think an intersex person may have felt in my home, in my public school, or in my church?
I'm pretty sure an intersex person could have learned to feel safe in my home. Doubt they'd have felt safe in my school. Not sure how safe they'd have felt in my church.
Synagogues differ; churches differ; and mosques differ. Based on my brief observations here in RF over the last few months and having encountered a few members of each (synagogue, church, and mosque), I suspect there are quite a few that--if I were an intersex person--I would NOT have felt safe in.

Terry Sampson said:

Is there a safe place in your synagogue, church, or mosque for the Intersex? If there isn't, don't you think it's about time you make one?

Click to expand...

How about putting one into the pulpit??

Yes, there is.

In my view, our bodies- whatever form they may take- are nothing more than prisons for our souls. As such, I don't don't pay any attention to the outward form of anyone and look to what's going on inside (as best I may). Our souls, being spirit, are genderless so it really doesn't matter what body it's been put into- male, female, all samey-same.

I do see a difference, though, in those who modify their bodies to be more comfortable in them and those who modify them to be 'different' or to be something they're not as a result of society. The former is okay, but the latter is just another acceptance of the evils of the world and I fear it might place their soul that much farther from God. As I said in another post it's one thing to be IN this world, but another thing to be OF it.

As for a 'safe space', as a Cathar (or at least trying to follow in their footsteps) I don't have any particular building or church-like structure; everything is done in-home or outside as it was in the old days.

the world should be safe for inter sexed transgender and OTHER LGBT PEOPLE JUST LIKE EVERY WHERE SHOULD BE SAFE FOR US ALL

I'll provide some quotes on the subject from Baha'i sources:

Sex, in its relation to the exigencies of the physical plane, has no connection with the Spirit. In this age of spiritual awakening, the world has entered upon the path of progress into the arena of development, where the power of the spirit surpasses that of the body. Soon the spirit will have dominion over the world of humanity." 82

(Abdu'l-Baha, Abdu'l-Baha in London, p. 81)

Abdu'l-Bahá then added: "But in the sight of God sex makes no difference. He or she is greatest who is nearest to God

(Abdu'l-Baha, Abdu'l-Baha in London, p. 105)

Most of 'Abdu'l-Bahá's life has been spent in an Eastern prison, which he gladly endured rather than abjure his faith, one of the tenets of which is the absolute equality of souls regardless of physical differences, such as sex and colour.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Abdu'l-Baha in London, p. 114)

Abdul Baha willingly endured imprisonment rather than abjure his faith, one of the tenets of which declares for the absolute equality of all souls regardless of such outer differences as sex, race or color.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 185)

In my view Baha’is accept all people regardless of their proclivities and bio-physical condition:

"Inasmuch as God is loving, why should we be unjust and unkind? As God manifests loyalty and mercy, why should we show forth enmity and hatred? Surely the divine policy is more perfect than human plan and theory; for no matter how wise and sagacious man may become, he can never attain a policy that is superior to the policy of God. Therefore, we must emulate the attitude of God, love all people, be just and kind to every human creature."

– Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 174.

As early as 1983 the supreme body of the elected Universal House of Justice has issued the following statement which specifically addresses the “transgender” issue:

"The House of Justice has not found any text in the Bahá’í writings which deals explicitly with the subjects of transsexuality or surgical operations carried out to change sex or to establish a single sex. It has decided that changes of sex or attempts to change sex should, at the present time, be considered medical questions on which advice and guidance should be sought from experts in that field."

Transsexuality

In Islam, it's known case. Early schoolers have guided us on how to handle such cases with the Islamic laws (Sharia).

Also, in Islam it's forbidden (Haram) to dislike disabled and rare cases, it's Haram to harsh, exile, not deal with, tell him in his face, even telling others about someone's problem is Haram

.

Just my opinion of course, but I don't think there's any place safe for people of any sex in a synagogue, church, or mosque.

.

At my synagogue, there is a person who is addressed as a he/him. His looks are ambiguous -- he could pass as easily for a gal as a guy. I have no idea if he is a transgender male, or if he is intersexed. Don't care. I have heard rumblings that he has had a rocky road, and his self identification has changed more than once. He seems a little confused to me, but I don't feel it is my place to inquire, since I am not close friends with him. I shmooze with him sometimes after prayers, since we are both Trekkies. I don't think anyone at the synagogue is unkind to him, although some are more comfortable with him than others. I have a certain amount of discomfort, but am highly motivated to love everyone.

IndigoChild5559 said:

I don't think anyone at the synagogue is unkind to him, although some are more comfortable with him than others. I have a certain amount of discomfort, but am highly motivated to love everyone.

Click to expand...

I have no experience with this in any of the various religious communities I've known.

But I'd like to believe that my local RCC congregation would be similar. I've no reason to think that wouldn't. As a gay man, I've never had any real problems with them, even if I do with the RCC heirarchy. But lots of people there do.

Just try telling a 20 something mother of three that she and her husband aren't allowed to use birth control

Generally, the Catholics I'm used to dealing with might be uncomfortable but they wouldn't be mean or threatening.

At the UU church I used to belong to it might have been worse. An intersex person might have been lionized to the point of discomfort. If I were intersex, I doubt that I'd want it to be the topic of nearly every conversation. But I could see that happening.
Tom

Terry Sampson said:

What are "the Intersex"?

What is intersex? | Intersex Society of North America

• “Intersex” is a general term used for a variety of conditions in which a person is born with a reproductive or sexual anatomy that doesn’t seem to fit the typical definitions of female or male. For example, a person might be born appearing to be female on the outside, but having mostly male-typical anatomy on the inside. Or a person may be born with genitals that seem to be in-between the usual male and female types—for example, a girl may be born with a noticeably large clitoris, or lacking a vaginal opening, or a boy may be born with a notably small penis, or with a scrotum that is divided so that it has formed more like labia. Or a person may be born with mosaic genetics, so that some of her cells have XX chromosomes and some of them have XY.
  
  Though we speak of intersex as an inborn condition, intersex anatomy doesn’t always show up at birth. Sometimes a person isn’t found to have intersex anatomy until she or he reaches the age of puberty, or finds himself an infertile adult, or dies of old age and is autopsied. Some people live and die with intersex anatomy without anyone (including themselves) ever knowing.
  
  Which variations of sexual anatomy count as intersex? In practice, different people have different answers to that question. That’s not surprising, because intersex isn’t a discreet or natural category.
  
  What does this mean? Intersex is a socially constructed category that reflects real biological variation. To better explain this, we can liken the sex spectrum to the color spectrum. There’s no question that in nature there are different wavelengths that translate into colors most of us see as red, blue, orange, yellow. But the decision to distinguish, say, between orange and red-orange is made only when we need it—like when we’re asking for a particular paint color. Sometimes social necessity leads us to make color distinctions that otherwise would seem incorrect or irrational, as, for instance, when we call certain people “black” or “white” when they’re not especially black or white as we would otherwise use the terms.
  
  In the same way, nature presents us with sex anatomy spectrums. Breasts, penises, clitorises, scrotums, labia, gonads—all of these vary in size and shape and morphology. So-called “sex” chromosomes can vary quite a bit, too. But in human cultures, sex categories get simplified into male, female, and sometimes intersex, in order to simplify social interactions, express what we know and feel, and maintain order.
  
  So nature doesn’t decide where the category of “male” ends and the category of “intersex” begins, or where the category of “intersex” ends and the category of “female” begins. Humans decide. Humans (today, typically doctors) decide how small a penis has to be, or how unusual a combination of parts has to be, before it counts as intersex. Humans decide whether a person with XXY chromosomes or XY chromosomes and androgen insensitivity will count as intersex.

Who are "the Intersex"?

• How common is intersex?
  To answer this question in an uncontroversial way, you’d have to first get everyone to agree on what counts as intersex —and also to agree on what should count as strictly male or strictly female. That’s hard to do. How small does a penis have to be before it counts as intersex? Do you count “sex chromosome” anomalies as intersex if there’s no apparent external sexual ambiguity?1 (Alice Dreger explores this question in greater depth in her book Hermaphrodites and the Medical Invention of Sex.)
  
  Here’s what we do know: If you ask experts at medical centers how often a child is born so noticeably atypical in terms of genitalia that a specialist in sex differentiation is called in, the number comes out to about 1 in 1500 to 1 in 2000 births. But a lot more people than that are born with subtler forms of sex anatomy variations, some of which won’t show up until later in life.
  
  Below we provide a summary of statistics drawn from an article by Brown University researcher Anne Fausto-Sterling.2 The basis for that article was an extensive review of the medical literature from 1955 to 1998 aimed at producing numeric estimates for the frequency of sex variations. Note that the frequency of some of these conditions, such as congenital adrenal hyperplasia, differs for different populations. These statistics are approximations.
  
  Not XX and not XY one in 1,666 births
  Klinefelter (XXY) one in 1,000 births
  Androgen insensitivity syndrome one in 13,000 births
  Partial androgen insensitivity syndrome one in 130,000 births
  Classical congenital adrenal hyperplasia one in 13,000 births
  Late onset adrenal hyperplasia one in 66 individuals
  Vaginal agenesis one in 6,000 births
  Ovotestes one in 83,000 births
  Idiopathic (no discernable medical cause) one in 110,000 births
  Iatrogenic (caused by medical treatment, for instance progestin administered to pregnant mother) no estimate
  5 alpha reductase deficiency no estimate
  Mixed gonadal dysgenesis no estimate
  Complete gonadal dysgenesis one in 150,000 births
  Hypospadias (urethral opening in perineum or along penile shaft) one in 2,000 births
  Hypospadias (urethral opening between corona and tip of glans penis) one in 770 births
  
  Total number of people whose bodies differ from standard male or female one in 100 births
  Total number of people receiving surgery to “normalize” genital appearance one or two in 1,000 births

"The Intersex" are our fellow countrymen, our neighbors, our kinfolk, and maybe, just maybe, you or your children. Given the statistics, I wonder:

Is there a safe place in your synagogue, church, or mosque for the Intersex? If there isn't, don't you think it's about time you make one?​

Click to expand...

I don't know why there has to be confusion.

Genesis 1:27 says:
And Elohim created man in his own image, in the image of Elohim created he him; male and female created he them.

Messianic Israelite said:

I don't know why there has to be confusion.

Genesis 1:27 says:
And Elohim created man in his own image, in the image of Elohim created he him; male and female created he them.

Click to expand...

I understand how you are interpreting this. However, it is not the only way to read the passage, and in fact most people do NOT read it that way.

Messianic Israelite said:

I don't know why there has to be confusion.

Genesis 1:27 says:
And Elohim created man in his own image, in the image of Elohim created he him; male and female created he them.

Click to expand...

So, tell me everything you know about, say, CAIS - complete androgen insensitivity syndrome- without looking it up. After you do that, maybe we'll talk.

The Intersex Society is defunct. I don’t accept these statistics as necessarily valid. IMHO they are suspect.

I am not sure what you even mean by a “safe place” with respect to intersex individuals. Nonetheless I think my synagogue is a safe place for everyone. Inasmuch as any individual who comes to it will be treated as a human being who has innate worth and is due respect and dignity.

Terry Sampson said:

What are "the Intersex"?

What is intersex? | Intersex Society of North America

• “Intersex” is a general term used for a variety of conditions in which a person is born with a reproductive or sexual anatomy that doesn’t seem to fit the typical definitions of female or male. For example, a person might be born appearing to be female on the outside, but having mostly male-typical anatomy on the inside. Or a person may be born with genitals that seem to be in-between the usual male and female types—for example, a girl may be born with a noticeably large clitoris, or lacking a vaginal opening, or a boy may be born with a notably small penis, or with a scrotum that is divided so that it has formed more like labia. Or a person may be born with mosaic genetics, so that some of her cells have XX chromosomes and some of them have XY.
  
  Though we speak of intersex as an inborn condition, intersex anatomy doesn’t always show up at birth. Sometimes a person isn’t found to have intersex anatomy until she or he reaches the age of puberty, or finds himself an infertile adult, or dies of old age and is autopsied. Some people live and die with intersex anatomy without anyone (including themselves) ever knowing.
  
  Which variations of sexual anatomy count as intersex? In practice, different people have different answers to that question. That’s not surprising, because intersex isn’t a discreet or natural category.
  
  What does this mean? Intersex is a socially constructed category that reflects real biological variation. To better explain this, we can liken the sex spectrum to the color spectrum. There’s no question that in nature there are different wavelengths that translate into colors most of us see as red, blue, orange, yellow. But the decision to distinguish, say, between orange and red-orange is made only when we need it—like when we’re asking for a particular paint color. Sometimes social necessity leads us to make color distinctions that otherwise would seem incorrect or irrational, as, for instance, when we call certain people “black” or “white” when they’re not especially black or white as we would otherwise use the terms.
  
  In the same way, nature presents us with sex anatomy spectrums. Breasts, penises, clitorises, scrotums, labia, gonads—all of these vary in size and shape and morphology. So-called “sex” chromosomes can vary quite a bit, too. But in human cultures, sex categories get simplified into male, female, and sometimes intersex, in order to simplify social interactions, express what we know and feel, and maintain order.
  
  So nature doesn’t decide where the category of “male” ends and the category of “intersex” begins, or where the category of “intersex” ends and the category of “female” begins. Humans decide. Humans (today, typically doctors) decide how small a penis has to be, or how unusual a combination of parts has to be, before it counts as intersex. Humans decide whether a person with XXY chromosomes or XY chromosomes and androgen insensitivity will count as intersex.

Who are "the Intersex"?

• How common is intersex?
  To answer this question in an uncontroversial way, you’d have to first get everyone to agree on what counts as intersex —and also to agree on what should count as strictly male or strictly female. That’s hard to do. How small does a penis have to be before it counts as intersex? Do you count “sex chromosome” anomalies as intersex if there’s no apparent external sexual ambiguity?1 (Alice Dreger explores this question in greater depth in her book Hermaphrodites and the Medical Invention of Sex.)
  
  Here’s what we do know: If you ask experts at medical centers how often a child is born so noticeably atypical in terms of genitalia that a specialist in sex differentiation is called in, the number comes out to about 1 in 1500 to 1 in 2000 births. But a lot more people than that are born with subtler forms of sex anatomy variations, some of which won’t show up until later in life.
  
  Below we provide a summary of statistics drawn from an article by Brown University researcher Anne Fausto-Sterling.2 The basis for that article was an extensive review of the medical literature from 1955 to 1998 aimed at producing numeric estimates for the frequency of sex variations. Note that the frequency of some of these conditions, such as congenital adrenal hyperplasia, differs for different populations. These statistics are approximations.
  
  Not XX and not XY one in 1,666 births
  Klinefelter (XXY) one in 1,000 births
  Androgen insensitivity syndrome one in 13,000 births
  Partial androgen insensitivity syndrome one in 130,000 births
  Classical congenital adrenal hyperplasia one in 13,000 births
  Late onset adrenal hyperplasia one in 66 individuals
  Vaginal agenesis one in 6,000 births
  Ovotestes one in 83,000 births
  Idiopathic (no discernable medical cause) one in 110,000 births
  Iatrogenic (caused by medical treatment, for instance progestin administered to pregnant mother) no estimate
  5 alpha reductase deficiency no estimate
  Mixed gonadal dysgenesis no estimate
  Complete gonadal dysgenesis one in 150,000 births
  Hypospadias (urethral opening in perineum or along penile shaft) one in 2,000 births
  Hypospadias (urethral opening between corona and tip of glans penis) one in 770 births
  
  Total number of people whose bodies differ from standard male or female one in 100 births
  Total number of people receiving surgery to “normalize” genital appearance one or two in 1,000 births

"The Intersex" are our fellow countrymen, our neighbors, our kinfolk, and maybe, just maybe, you or your children. Given the statistics, I wonder:

Is there a safe place in your synagogue, church, or mosque for the Intersex? If there isn't, don't you think it's about time you make one?​

Click to expand...

There is a safe place ANYWHERE for the intersex, so long as they do not draw attention to themselves.

This is the key to everything. If you try to stand out, some people will not like you. Not all, but some.
If you blend in, nobody can complain.

Let's compare.



This outfit makes a statement. It's confrontational, and people are unlikely to show you respect.

On the other hand... when you look at someone living as a woman, trying to pass, you see something entirely different. No anger, low profile, no confrontation.



The picture above isn't me, but you get the idea. This person is realistically trying to pass as female.

I am a genetic male who lives genderfluid. I go to church, I go to work, and I generally am accepted in my small town. It is possible. But you have to be able to treat people as "innocent until proven guilty." That is, keep to yourself, don't create enemies.

Bottom line, as an intersex person, you can probably present as masculine or feminine to some degree (some are more one or another). This is not to say some people won't be terrible to you. But you make a better impression on people when you figure out how to just be yourself.

RabbiO said:

So, tell me everything you know about, say, CAIS - complete androgen insensitivity syndrome- without looking it up. After you do that, maybe we'll talk.

Click to expand...

https://www.ufhillel.org/single-post/2018/06/20/The-6-Genders-of-Judaism
Six Distinct Genders in Judaism?
http://www.transtorah.org/PDFs/Classical_Jewish_Terms_for_Gender_Diversity.pdf

The Torah itself describes sexless beings, known as angels.

Complete Androgen Insensitivity where your body completely rejects androgen. You look female.