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Why did the Jews reject their Messiah when he DID come?

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PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
sooda said:
The Dating of the Book of Daniel. - westminster.edu
www4.westminster.edu/staff/brennie/rel101/daniel.htm
The most obvious conclusion would be that the Book of Daniel was written at the time of the profanation of the Temple by Antiochus IV, during the Maccabean revolt which that sacrilege provoked. That would explain why the author is not very precise about sixth century events, why he is so precise about the time of Antiochus, and why he was never counted among the prophets.
Click to expand...

A good point. This is how modern scribes "date" books they don't wish to explain away.
But Daniel spoke of the Messiah coming to his temple and being cut off by the Romans,
plus the destruction of the Temple. So Daniel had to be written, at the earliest, about the
First Century AD.
And Ezekiel's account (chapter 38,39) has yet to happen (the new Israel's war with
Magog and the Muslim world) so Ezekiel hasn't been written yet.
 
rosends

rosends

Well-Known Member
S

susanblange

Active Member
sooda said:
Psalm 22 is about a person who is crying out to God to save him from the taunts and torments of his enemies, and (in the last ten verses) thanking God for rescuing him. Jewish interpretations of Psalm 22 identify the individual in the psalm with a royal figure, usually King David or Queen Esther.
Click to expand...
Psalm 22 is one of the prophecies about the "crucifixion" of the Messiah. There are two more. Job 16, and Psalm 69.
 
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susanblange

Active Member
PruePhillip said:
Disagree on all points (which is unusual for me)
I wouldn't know where to start - perhaps by asking where you got this stuff from?
Click to expand...
I have been influenced by Herbert W. Armstrong and the Worldwide Church of God. He wrote a little book called "The United States and Britain in Prophecy". I accept it as Truth because it makes sense and it fits in nicely with my beliefs.
 
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PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
rosends said:
But right, so problematic and certainly not acceptable as a messianic figure.

So he misapplied some rules and unlawfully outmoded others.

therefore not as a messiah. Got it.
Click to expand...

Jeremiah best sums up what this New Testament is about:

The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them,
declares the Lord.
This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts."

This covenant of the heart is through love of the Messiah.
We should love His coming and the giving of His life for us.
And this Messiah fulfilled the Old Law, but He also gave us
the "new and living way."
 
rosends

rosends

Well-Known Member
PruePhillip said:
Jeremiah best sums up what this New Testament is about:

The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them,
declares the Lord.
This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts."

This covenant of the heart is through love of the Messiah.
We should love His coming and the giving of His life for us.
And this Messiah fulfilled the Old Law, but He also gave us
the "new and living way."
Click to expand...
That is certainly one idea about that passage. I, of course, could point out that the difference in the covenants is textually, not in the content, but in the method of transmission. The law is still the law, but it will be implanted in the heart, and not have to be taught. So any change in the law, abrogation, repealing etc. flies in the face of the claim that the gospels are the new covenant. I won't point this out, but I could.
 
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PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
rosends said:
That is certainly one idea about that passage. I, of course, could point out that the difference in the covenants is textually, not in the content, but in the method of transmission. The law is still the law, but it will be implanted in the heart, and not have to be taught. So any change in the law, abrogation, repealing etc. flies in the face of the claim that the gospels are the new covenant. I won't point this out, but I could.
Click to expand...

They had to love the lamb in Exodus. Brought into their homes for three days.
A perfect, unblemished male sheep. And then they had to kill and eat all of it -
leaving nothing behind. That is the Redeemer - the perfect lamb, sacrificed
"once and for all" for the sins of the people. The people can't love the law, or
tables of stone, but they can love the one who came to be their Redeemer
and die for them.
And the symbols of the "content" of the old law pointed to this Messiah, ie the
lamb, the priest, the tabernacle, the holy garments etc..Jesus is our "great
high priest" who "does not dwell in temples built with hands" and clothed in
the garment of righteousness.
Zecariah says the Jews WILL recognize this Messiah, the one who was
pierced by them, and they will mourn for this King who was never their Lord.
 
P

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
susanblange said:
I have been influenced by Herbert W. Armstrong and the Worldwide Church of God. He wrote a little book called "The United States and Britain in Prophecy". I accept it as Truth because it makes sense and it fits in nicely with my beliefs.
Click to expand...

Used to listen to him once. Mostly to glean knowledge. His religious views seemed
strange to me. I believe both he and the Jehovah Witnesses believed the end would
come in 1975.
 
rosends

rosends

Well-Known Member
PruePhillip said:
They had to love the lamb in Exodus. Brought into their homes for three days.
A perfect, unblemished male sheep. And then they had to kill and eat all of it -
leaving nothing behind. That is the Redeemer - the perfect lamb, sacrificed
"once and for all" for the sins of the people. The people can't love the law, or
tables of stone, but they can love the one who came to be their Redeemer
and die for them.
And the symbols of the "content" of the old law pointed to this Messiah, ie the
lamb, the priest, the tabernacle, the holy garments etc..Jesus is our "great
high priest" who "does not dwell in temples built with hands" and clothed in
the garment of righteousness.
Zecariah says the Jews WILL recognize this Messiah, the one who was
pierced by them, and they will mourn for this King who was never their Lord.
Click to expand...
No one has to love a lamb. And the lamb that was eaten was not an atonement for sin. (and people don't show their love by eating things or else my dog would have been dinner a long time ago. And my kids.)
 
sooda

sooda

Veteran Member
susanblange said:
Psalm 22 is one of the prophecies about the "crucifixion" of the Messiah. There are two more. Job 16, and Psalm 69.
Click to expand...

Most of the Psalms are much older than Adam and Eve.. They come from the north coast Canaanites at Ras Shamra.. and Queen Elizabeth as Jewish royalty is a parlor game from the 1930s.
 
S

susanblange

Active Member
PruePhillip said:
They had to love the lamb in Exodus. Brought into their homes for three days.
A perfect, unblemished male sheep. And then they had to kill and eat all of it -
leaving nothing behind. That is the Redeemer - the perfect lamb, sacrificed
"once and for all" for the sins of the people. The people can't love the law, or
tables of stone, but they can love the one who came to be their Redeemer
and die for them.
And the symbols of the "content" of the old law pointed to this Messiah, ie the
lamb, the priest, the tabernacle, the holy garments etc..Jesus is our "great
high priest" who "does not dwell in temples built with hands" and clothed in
the garment of righteousness.
Zecariah says the Jews WILL recognize this Messiah, the one who was
pierced by them, and they will mourn for this King who was never their Lord.
Click to expand...
The lamb for a sin offering must be female. Leviticus 4:32. "But cursed be the deceiver, which hath in his flock a male, and voweth and sacrificeth unto the Lord a corrupt thing..." Malachi 1:14. You said the lamb must be eaten. John 6:48-58. Are you saying the disciples ate Jesus' body as he commanded? They also drank his blood. "Their sorrows shall be multiplied that hasten after another god: their drink offerings of blood will I not offer, nor take up their names into my lips". Psalm 16:4. The body of the Messiah must be burned on the altar to complete the sacrifice. Daniel 7:11.
 
S

susanblange

Active Member
PruePhillip said:
Jeremiah best sums up what this New Testament is about:

The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them,
declares the Lord.
This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts."

This covenant of the heart is through love of the Messiah.
We should love His coming and the giving of His life for us.
And this Messiah fulfilled the Old Law, but He also gave us
the "new and living way."
Click to expand...
A covenant is like a contract. There must be a meeting of the minds, and an offer and acceptance. Jesus made no laws, or terms of the contract. He just said to love everybody, including the wicked and your enemies. When the true Messiah comes, there will be thousands of new laws added to the covenant. Isaiah 2:3. The wicked and God's enemies will be cut off. Psalm 37:20, Psalm 97:3, Isaiah 24:6.
 
S

susanblange

Active Member
PruePhillip said:
Used to listen to him once. Mostly to glean knowledge. His religious views seemed
strange to me. I believe both he and the Jehovah Witnesses believed the end would
come in 1975.
Click to expand...
I have been anticipating the end for 36 years. It could come at any time now. I believe I will have a prophetic dream, which will tell me when it will happen. Numbers 12:6. I know what's going to happen, I just don't know when.
 
D

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
PruePhillip said:
They had to love the lamb in Exodus. Brought into their homes for three days.
A perfect, unblemished male sheep. And then they had to kill and eat all of it -
leaving nothing behind. That is the Redeemer - the perfect lamb, sacrificed
"once and for all" for the sins of the people. The people can't love the law, or
tables of stone, but they can love the one who came to be their Redeemer
and die for them.
And the symbols of the "content" of the old law pointed to this Messiah, ie the
lamb, the priest, the tabernacle, the holy garments etc..Jesus is our "great
high priest" who "does not dwell in temples built with hands" and clothed in
the garment of righteousness.
Zecariah says the Jews WILL recognize this Messiah, the one who was
pierced by them, and they will mourn for this King who was never their Lord.
Click to expand...
That is sort of weird.

John 10

Yeshuah calls himself a shepherd, not a lamb. I have brought this up in discussions, a shepherd vs a lamb, no answers. Someone calls yeshuah a lamb in scripture, that is about it.
 
D

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
It isn't that I couldn't make this a religious aspect, it's that the way one does that, is odd, and you end up worshipping a lamb sacrifice? What the is going on
 
D

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
sooda said:
Most of the Psalms are much older than Adam and Eve.. They come from the north coast Canaanites at Ras Shamra.. and Queen Elizabeth as Jewish royalty is a parlor game from the 1930s.
Click to expand...
You really should write your entire religious premise in one discussion. These odds and ends don't 'necessitate' answers, and you need to explain your ideas and religious explanations, instead of just saying, 'such and such is from Canaanite ', without a derivative statement concerning these ideas.

Otherwise, it isn't telling me anything, about what you believe.
 
D

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Anyways, real christian theology is that the Lord, 'spirit of the Lord', manifests as JESUS, in Israel.

John 10

Jesus then demonstrates a 'sacrifice', which is not really literal,
Matthew 27

Then ascends to Heaven, to resume Lordship.
•
There is no priestly sacrifice, there is no replacemant sacrifice, and the 'sacrifice', is conditional, ie only for Believers.

As a 'god aspect',
John 17
This means that one would question verses where Jesus isn't all knowing, so forth.

Otherwise, why is Jesus a 'god aspect'?

So, the theology supercedes a seeming interpretation, or reading of Scripture. That is how one would read scripture, as far as I'm concerned.
 
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Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Here's something fun.

If Jesus's name is 'Yehoshuah', or 'Yoheshuah',

Then according to necessary interpretation, christian interpretation,

Matthew 1:22-24
Matthew 1

Is saying that Jesus is 'Jehovah', or in Judaism, Yahweh.

Why? Because Matthew 1

Says, 'for He shall save his people'.
Matthew 1:21

Not, another person, or entity, shall save his people.

So, as 'Yehoshuah', Matthew 1 is necessarily calling Jesus, the Tetragrammaton, or in Judaism, Yahweh.
 
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Desert Snake

Veteran Member
So anyways, in the asiatic and Nestorian tradition,

The manifestation has this

[Human||g-d]
Configuration both human and g-d aspect in Jesus, though different natures.
By asiatic means configuration of a asiatic church, not necessarily, "asia", generally.

What occurs here, regardless, is that "Jesus" in Spirit Form, is the Lord, also, because the Spirit nature, is the Lord.
[The spirit nature of Jesus the human.
 
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