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Why did the Jews reject their Messiah when he DID come?

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Everything that happened in the NT was done in an attempt to fulfill scripture. Prophecy is known after the fact, not before. .

My favorite prophecy concerned Judah, one of the sons of Jacob.
In Egypt late Bronze Age, Jacob gave a blessing to Judah. This
son was the one who offered himself for his brother.
Jacob said, if I recall the words - the scepter shall not pass from
Judah, nor a law giver between his feet, until Shiloh comes, and
in Him shall be the obedience of the nations.

This means
there shall be a Jewish nation (ie scepter is monarchy)
and he shall guard the Law.
and this monarchy will remain of the line of Judah.
UNTIL
meaning there's an end to both nation and law
Shiloh - a name for the Messiah, of the line of Judah.
comes - he shall come
and His shall be the obedience of the nations - meaning
this Messiah will be a Gentile thing.

My other favorite prophecy concerns the TWO MESSIAHS,
Redeemer and King that are present in Zechariah. That the
Jews will see their king reigning over the nations - the same
One who's hands and feet they pierced, the one who had
come to them lowly and riding upon a colt.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
You raise an excellent point re Jesus and the temple. Daniel said the Messiah would come to HIS
temple. But assuming Jesus is the Messiah then why did He condemn that temple? Yes, He
purged it. But He also said God does not dwell in temples made with hands. He foresaw the
destruction of that temple.
I say that Jesus had no real intention of cleansing the temple so that it would be a perfect before
God. He overthrew the money changers in a symbolic act, reminding people of God's law. He
knew the money changers would be back, within the day.

But for the Jew - where is the daily sacrifice as expressed in the Torah? The Old Testament speaks
of a time when there will be no daily sacrifice.


Daniel is talking about the new temple that Cyrus the Persian king had built. Daniel is not considered a prophet in Judaism.

  1. Cyrus Decree to Rebuild - letgodbetrue.com
    www.letgodbetrue.com/bible/prophecy/cyrus-decree-to...
    Third, the context of Daniel’s prayer in Daniel chapter 9 clearly points to the decree of Cyrus as the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem. The chapter begins with Daniel in the first year of Darius the Mede reading the book of Jeremiah and realizing that the 70 year desolation of Jerusalem was soon coming to an end.


 

sooda

Veteran Member
The word Shiloh appears 33 times in the Old Testament and all but one usage refer to an area of Israel. The verse in which Shiloh is used as a Messianic prophecy is Genesis 49:10: “The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a Lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come. And the obedience of the peoples to him” (NKJV).

This verse is part of Jacob’s blessing of his 12 sons in which he portrays the future history of each son and each of the 12 tribes of Israel.

The blessing on Judah and his tribe contains several elements. For one thing, his descendants would be strong and receive the praise of the other tribes of Israel (v. 8-9). This was fulfilled in David, a strong and mighty warrior and king, and ultimately by the Messiah who came from the line of Judah. Verses 11 and 12 are somewhat obscure in that they contain poetic, hyperbolic language.

Generally, this language describes prosperity so great that people will be able to tie a donkey to a choice vine and let it eat its fill because there is such abundance. This is likely a prophecy concerning the millennium. It will be a time of peace (Micah 4:2-4; Isaiah 32:17-18), joy (Isaiah 61:7, 10), comfort (Isaiah 40:1-2), and no poverty or sickness (Amos 9:13-15; Joel 2:28-29).

In verse 10, we find the reference to Shiloh and His future coming. This obscure word is variously interpreted to mean “the sent” (John 17:3), “the seed” (Isaiah 11:1), the “peaceable or prosperous one” (Ephesians 2:14), that is, the Messiah (Isaiah 11:10; Romans 15:12).

Prior to Shiloh’s coming, the tribe of Judah would continue to maintain power and strength, signified by the scepter—the symbol of authority and rule of law. This first began in David, who was of the tribe of Judah, and continued to the Babylonian captivity, when another sort of government took place, described in the next part of the verse. A ‘lawgiver’ can be any ruler who has jurisdiction over others, and from the Babylonian captivity through the time of Christ, Israel was under the rule of other lawgivers.

When Shiloh—the Messiah—came, the scepter of rule over Israel departed from Judah and rested in the hand of the King of Kings, where it remains today, although many still reject Him. He is the Lawgiver at whose feet we now sit for teaching in truth and righteousness through His Word, the Bible.

The “obedience of the peoples” was and still is offered to Him, replacing obedience to the law of Moses. From the beginning, there were great gatherings of people who heard Him preach and saw His miracles. Multitudes witnessed His death and His post-resurrection appearances. Multitudes more were converted to Christ, embraced His doctrines, professed His religion, and have lived in Him ever since. Here is the meaning of the “obedience of the peoples to him” (v. 10), which will continue until Shiloh comes again to rule and reign over all during the millennium.

What is the meaning of the term ‘Shiloh’? Is it a Messianic prophecy? | GotQuestions.org

At that time, every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of the Father (Philippians 2:9-11).
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Daniel is talking about the new temple that Cyrus the Persian king had built. Daniel is not considered a prophet in Judaism.

  1. Cyrus Decree to Rebuild - letgodbetrue.com
    www.letgodbetrue.com/bible/prophecy/cyrus-decree-to...
    Third, the context of Daniel’s prayer in Daniel chapter 9 clearly points to the decree of Cyrus as the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem. The chapter begins with Daniel in the first year of Darius the Mede reading the book of Jeremiah and realizing that the 70 year desolation of Jerusalem was soon coming to an end.


Not sure of the point.
And I am sure what the Jews mean by "prophet" - King David wasn't a "prophet" in the strict
sense, but he wrote of the suffering Messiah dying upon the cross.
And Jesus and John the Baptist were prophets in a very real sense, but they weren't considered
prophets by the Jews.
Who cares what "the Jews" think. They don't have a monopoly upon the bible, even their "own"
bible. They rejected their Messiah, as the REAL PROPHETS predicted, and were carried away
into slavery and exile as a result - for nearly 2,000 years.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Not sure of the point.
And I am sure what the Jews mean by "prophet" - King David wasn't a "prophet" in the strict
sense, but he wrote of the suffering Messiah dying upon the cross.
And Jesus and John the Baptist were prophets in a very real sense, but they weren't considered
prophets by the Jews.
Who cares what "the Jews" think. They don't have a monopoly upon the bible, even their "own"
bible. They rejected their Messiah, as the REAL PROPHETS predicted, and were carried away
into slavery and exile as a result - for nearly 2,000 years.

Look it up. Daniel is not listed among the prophets.. The Book was written by a committee ... to include a fake history of Babylon up to the Macabbean wars.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Not sure of the point.
And I am sure what the Jews mean by "prophet" - King David wasn't a "prophet" in the strict
sense, but he wrote of the suffering Messiah dying upon the cross.
And Jesus and John the Baptist were prophets in a very real sense, but they weren't considered
prophets by the Jews.
Who cares what "the Jews" think. They don't have a monopoly upon the bible, even their "own"
bible. They rejected their Messiah, as the REAL PROPHETS predicted, and were carried away
into slavery and exile as a result - for nearly 2,000 years.
how do you react when a Muslim says "Jesus was only a prophet and not the messiah -- what do Christians know and who cares what they think? They don't have a monopoly over their "own" bible."

Yeah. That.
 

Spartan

Well-Known Member
The apostles were convinced that Jesus rose. They were not the only followers of a religious sage in history that believed their teacher had risen from the dead. It happens. It doesn't mean that anyone has actually risen from the dead.

Yeah, it does. Numerous people attested to Jesus' resurrection. The PREPONDERANCE of the EVIDENCE is in his favor.
 

susanblange

Active Member
My favorite prophecy concerned Judah, one of the sons of Jacob.
In Egypt late Bronze Age, Jacob gave a blessing to Judah. This
son was the one who offered himself for his brother.
Jacob said, if I recall the words - the scepter shall not pass from
Judah, nor a law giver between his feet, until Shiloh comes, and
in Him shall be the obedience of the nations.

This means
there shall be a Jewish nation (ie scepter is monarchy)
and he shall guard the Law.
and this monarchy will remain of the line of Judah.
UNTIL
meaning there's an end to both nation and law
Shiloh - a name for the Messiah, of the line of Judah.
comes - he shall come
and His shall be the obedience of the nations - meaning
this Messiah will be a Gentile thing.

My other favorite prophecy concerns the TWO MESSIAHS,
Redeemer and King that are present in Zechariah. That the
Jews will see their king reigning over the nations - the same
One who's hands and feet they pierced, the one who had
come to them lowly and riding upon a colt.
Genesis 49:10. "The scepter shall not depart from Judah...until Shiloh come..." Queen Elizabeth is sitting on the throne of David. The monarchy still exists. David has been reincarnated and he will be the governor of Israel in the messianic age. Ezekiel 37:24-25. The House of Israel is the USA, the UK, and the EU. Genesis 48:15-22. The Messiah will be anointed by the Jews as the King of the Universe. The Messiah is a Gentile because he is not ethnically Jewish. He is, however, Israeli. The Messiah is from the tribe of Joseph/Ephraim. Genesis 49:24-26. "...from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel". There are two Messiahs, the Lord and Elijah. Elijah is ethnically Jewish and they will both be anointed. Zechariah 4:14. In the NT, they are identified as "two witnesses".
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Genesis 49:10. "The scepter shall not depart from Judah...until Shiloh come..." Queen Elizabeth is sitting on the throne of David. The monarchy still exists. David has been reincarnated and he will be the governor of Israel in the messianic age. Ezekiel 37:24-25. The House of Israel is the USA, the UK, and the EU. Genesis 48:15-22. The Messiah will be anointed by the Jews as the King of the Universe. The Messiah is a Gentile because he is not ethnically Jewish. He is, however, Israeli. The Messiah is from the tribe of Joseph/Ephraim. Genesis 49:24-26. "...from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel". There are two Messiahs, the Lord and Elijah. Elijah is ethnically Jewish and they will both be anointed. Zechariah 4:14. In the NT, they are identified as "two witnesses".


Disagree on all points (which is unusual for me)
I wouldn't know where to start - perhaps by asking where you got this stuff from?
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
how do you react when a Muslim says "Jesus was only a prophet and not the messiah -- what do Christians know and who cares what they think? They don't have a monopoly over their "own" bible."

Yeah. That.

It's a question I often ask people too.

You have to test the claim.
Mohamed called himself a "prophet" but his doctrine was not only contrary to Jesus'
but his "fruit" (as Jesus called the personal outcomes of your life) was one of violence
and conquest.
As an aside. Many Jews believed in Jesus - these were the tens of thousands who
followed and heard him, including a "great company" of priests. These people could
not remain "Jews" after Jesus - so they became Gentiles.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Look it up. Daniel is not listed among the prophets.. The Book was written by a committee ... to include a fake history of Babylon up to the Macabbean wars.

So now even the Babylonian captivity account is fake.
Maccabee I and II are not included in the Jewish holy
book because they were written after Babylon, when
the book was sealed as the Jewish canon. That alone
is proof of the dating of Daniel.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Genesis 49:10. "The scepter shall not depart from Judah...until Shiloh come..." Queen Elizabeth is sitting on the throne of David. The monarchy still exists. David has been reincarnated and he will be the governor of Israel in the messianic age. Ezekiel 37:24-25. The House of Israel is the USA, the UK, and the EU. Genesis 48:15-22. The Messiah will be anointed by the Jews as the King of the Universe. The Messiah is a Gentile because he is not ethnically Jewish. He is, however, Israeli. The Messiah is from the tribe of Joseph/Ephraim. Genesis 49:24-26. "...from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel". There are two Messiahs, the Lord and Elijah. Elijah is ethnically Jewish and they will both be anointed. Zechariah 4:14. In the NT, they are identified as "two witnesses".

Oh Brother...…..
 

sooda

Veteran Member
So now even the Babylonian captivity account is fake.
Maccabee I and II are not included in the Jewish holy
book because they were written after Babylon, when
the book was sealed as the Jewish canon. That alone
is proof of the dating of Daniel.

Daniel's account of the Babylonian exile is fake.

The Book of Daniel was written in reaction to the persecution of the Jews by the Greek king Antiochus IV Epiphanes in 167-164 BCE. Its authors were the maskilim, the "wise", of whom Daniel is one: "Those among the people who are wise shall make many understand...", and its fundamental theme is God's control over history.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
The Dating of the Book of Daniel. - westminster.edu
www4.westminster.edu/staff/brennie/rel101/daniel.htm
The most obvious conclusion would be that the Book of Daniel was written at the time of the profanation of the Temple by Antiochus IV, during the Maccabean revolt which that sacrilege provoked. That would explain why the author is not very precise about sixth century events, why he is so precise about the time of Antiochus, and why he was never counted among the prophets.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
It's a question I often ask people too.

You have to test the claim.
Mohamed called himself a "prophet" but his doctrine was not only contrary to Jesus'
but his "fruit" (as Jesus called the personal outcomes of your life) was one of violence
and conquest.
And the doctrine from the gospels is contrary to Judaism and Jesus' life was one of law breaking.
As an aside. Many Jews believed in Jesus - these were the tens of thousands who
followed and heard him, including a "great company" of priests. These people could
not remain "Jews" after Jesus - so they became Gentiles.
Many Christians have become Muslim, believing in Mohammed. Does the change mean that they are right? Look up Sabbateanism. People, lots of them, make mistakes.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
It's a question I often ask people too.

You have to test the claim.
Mohamed called himself a "prophet" but his doctrine was not only contrary to Jesus'
but his "fruit" (as Jesus called the personal outcomes of your life) was one of violence
and conquest.
As an aside. Many Jews believed in Jesus - these were the tens of thousands who
followed and heard him, including a "great company" of priests. These people could
not remain "Jews" after Jesus - so they became Gentiles.

Muhammed was a messenger. His message was : Save yourselves. I cannot save you. Return to the God of Abraham.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Not sure of the point.
And I am sure what the Jews mean by "prophet" - King David wasn't a "prophet" in the strict
sense, but he wrote of the suffering Messiah dying upon the cross.
And Jesus and John the Baptist were prophets in a very real sense, but they weren't considered
prophets by the Jews.
Who cares what "the Jews" think. They don't have a monopoly upon the bible, even their "own"
bible. They rejected their Messiah, as the REAL PROPHETS predicted, and were carried away
into slavery and exile as a result - for nearly 2,000 years.

Psalm 22 is about a person who is crying out to God to save him from the taunts and torments of his enemies, and (in the last ten verses) thanking God for rescuing him. Jewish interpretations of Psalm 22 identify the individual in the psalm with a royal figure, usually King David or Queen Esther.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Psalm 22 is about a person who is crying out to God to save him from the taunts and torments of his enemies, and (in the last ten verses) thanking God for rescuing him. Jewish interpretations of Psalm 22 identify the individual in the psalm with a royal figure, usually King David or Queen Esther.

Do YOU think David or Esther would write that? Remember, David was dead for 600-800 years
when the bible was SUPPOSED to have been written.
The suffering doesn't match the account of either of these people.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
And the doctrine from the gospels is contrary to Judaism and Jesus' life was one of law breaking.

Many Christians have become Muslim, believing in Mohammed. Does the change mean that they are right? Look up Sabbateanism. People, lots of them, make mistakes.

The claim that Jesus broke the law is both right and wrong.
Jesus made many of the Commandments more severe, but he ended the Ordinances
(rituals, rites which were symbolic for the time to come.) and the Judgments (such
as inheritance, women's rights etc..) So Christians live under the moral code, but not
Jewish dietary or criminal codes.) This is Jesus as "law breaker."
 
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