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'Was' and 'Beginning' in John 1:1

Moz

Religion. A pox on all their Houses.
Of course its a lie, but I didn't come to that conclusion Moz, the Watchtower did.

There is no "same congregation" when it comes to the Watchtower and any other denomination of Christianity. The Watchtower considers their Organization the sole body of Christ, and there is no other body and there are no other denominational members.

Is that what the Wheat and the Tares parable tells us? Of course not. It's simply what Witnesses believe, and I don't recall ever reading a Watchtower publication that said differently. The wheat are or will be in the Organization as a result of the preaching work and the Tares will eventually be split amongst everyone else, but their is no "same congregation" because there is no "joining" or "joint' between the Org and Christendom.

If tomorrow's Watchtower says differently, they will believe differently, but that issue hasn't come out yet, and I don't expect it ever will.
Hi
It is interesting you keep focusing on our day.

That is not nor has it ever been part of the discussion that we were having. You have been banging about about how the dreadfull Jws are condemning your (and the Jw,s btw) poor ancestors.

We actually agreed somewhere in all this, that the church of those days did indeed contain both true(wheat) and false(weeds) christians. Although it is also true that you did not agree that the parable of the wheat and the weeds was addressing that phenomenon.

Yes today the Jws are exactly as you say which has nothing to do with the argument.
Peace.
 

Moz

Religion. A pox on all their Houses.
There is certainly a hell Moz, because that's what scripture tells us, but it also tells us there will be different levels of our own making, and I suspect only the demons will be at the lowest level, but I cannot predict who will be lowered there anymore than I can predict who will be raised in heaven.

I don't recall ever hearing a sermon where God tortures those in hell. I really think you need a fire and brimstone preacher for that, so I would suggest again the Westboro Baptist Church. You'll get an ear full of exactly what you expect to hear there.

But this reminds me of a story.

There once was a prison, full of prisoners in what could only be describes as the most horrendous of conditions. Each day any prisoner might find themselves beaten, drugged, dragged, hosed...you name it. Sometimes by each other, sometimes by the prison guards.

Incredibly, despite this torture, none of the family members, prison guards, nor the prisoners thought it was better that the prisoners be put to death, even when they heard they might get a second chance during a resurrection and thus save the community and taxpayers a bundle of money.

Dude, I think that would have been a disgusting concept, so let's just pray our prisons never fall prey to the tender mercies of Jehovah Witnesses.

In any even, I've stayed up WAAAAAYYYY too long again and I have to work tomorrow.

There is certainly a hell Moz, because that's what scripture tells us, but it also tells us there will be different levels of our own making, and I suspect only the demons will be at the lowest level, but I cannot predict who will be lowered there anymore than I can predict who will be raised in heaven.

I don't recall ever hearing a sermon where God tortures those in hell. I really think you need a fire and brimstone preacher for that, so I would suggest again the Westboro Baptist Church. You'll get an ear full of exactly what you expect to hear there.

But this reminds me of a story.

There once was a prison, full of prisoners in what could only be describes as the most horrendous of conditions. Each day any prisoner might find themselves beaten, drugged, dragged, hosed...you name it. Sometimes by each other, sometimes by the prison guards.

Incredibly, despite this torture, none of the family members, prison guards, nor the prisoners thought it was better that the prisoners be put to death, even when they heard they might get a second chance during a resurrection and thus save the community and taxpayers a bundle of money.

Dude, I think that would have been a disgusting concept, so let's just pray our prisons never fall prey to the tender mercies of Jehovah Witnesses.

In any even, I've stayed up WAAAAAYYYY too long again and I have to work tomorrow.

Hi.
I like how you deny torture and then tell a story on how torture is preferable to death. Sweet stuff.

Mate... i'm an Aussie who does not engage in any of the american christianity stuff so the continuing references to westboro or any bapist (not really a thing down here) stuff is above or at least around me.

The torture in hell though....it is YOU who invokes Dante with all that crap about levels in Hell. Where'd that come from..... If you are aware of Dante then i think he predates this westboro mob you keep refering too.

But just for your sensibilities i'll rephrase it as Eternal Mental Anguish For All Of Eternity the softer version. Although that somehow seems worse to me.
Peace.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Hate, hypocrisy, judgment, entitlement -- on and on. This isn't Christianity. This isn't what Jesus taught. This doesn't either foster or continue the healing work Jesus began. Too bad. The religious zeal could be so much more helpful to the human family.

Matthew 23:1-39...

"23 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying: 2 “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the seat of Moses. 3 Therefore, all the things they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds, for they say but they do not practice what they say. 4 They bind up heavy loads and put them on the shoulders of men, but they themselves are not willing to budge them with their finger. 5 All the works they do, they do to be seen by men, for they broaden the scripture-containing cases that they wear as safeguards and lengthen the fringes of their garments. 6 They like the most prominent place at evening meals and the front seats in the synagogues 7 and the greetings in the marketplaces and to be called Rabbi by men. 8 But you, do not you be called Rabbi, for one is your Teacher, and all of you are brothers. 9 Moreover, do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the heavenly One. 10 Neither be called leaders, for your Leader is one, the Christ. 11 But the greatest one among you must be your minister. 12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

13 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut up the Kingdom of the heavens before men; for you yourselves do not go in, neither do you permit those on their way in to go in. 14
15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you travel over sea and dry land to make one proselyte, and when he becomes one, you make him a subject for Ge·henʹna twice as much so as yourselves.

16 Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it is nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is under obligation.’ 17 Fools and blind ones! Which, in fact, is greater, the gold or the temple that has sanctified the gold? 18 Moreover, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it is nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is under obligation.’ 19 Blind ones! Which, in fact, is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift? 20 Therefore, whoever swears by the altar is swearing by it and by all the things on it; 21 and whoever swears by the temple is swearing by it and by the One inhabiting it; 22 and whoever swears by heaven is swearing by the throne of God and by the One sitting on it.

23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you give the tenth of the mint and the dill and the cumin, but you have disregarded the weightier matters of the Law, namely, justice and mercy and faithfulness. These things it was necessary to do, yet not to disregard the other things. 24 Blind guides, who strain out the gnat but gulp down the camel!

25 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you cleanse the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of greediness and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee, cleanse first the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of it may also become clean.

27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you resemble whitewashed graves, which outwardly indeed appear beautiful but inside are full of dead men’s bones and of every sort of uncleanness. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you build the graves of the prophets and decorate the tombs of the righteous ones, 30 and you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have shared with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 Therefore, you are testifying against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Well, then, fill up the measure of your forefathers.

33 “Serpents, offspring of vipers, how will you flee from the judgment of Ge·henʹna? 34 For this reason, I am sending to you prophets and wise men and public instructors. Some of them you will kill and execute on stakes, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 so that there may come upon you all the righteous blood spilled on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zech·a·riʹah son of Bar·a·chiʹah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

37 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent to her—how often I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings! But you did not want it. 38 Look! Your house is abandoned to you. 39 For I say to you, you will by no means see me from now until you say, ‘Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s name!’"


This is Christianity......this is what Jesus taught....right from the horse's mouth. The judgment that Christ passed on first century Judaism is the same judgment that he will pronounce on modern day Christendom....and for all the same reasons. They are clones of one another....corrupted by the same enemy of God.

And you are correct..."The religious zeal could be so much more helpful to the human family."
Jesus taught us how to be helpful to the human family by preaching to them.....offering the "good news of the kingdom" which will solve all of men's woes and rid the world of wickedness and those who practice it, once and for all. It means holding people to account for their choices and actions. Christ is not some mamby-pamby sop who is all forgiving or falls for crocodile tears......he judges with a sword not with a smack on the wrist.

Those who are religious hypocrites are classified as "wicked" and bound for gehenna, as Jesus said.
If this is an inconvenient truth, then I cannot apologise.
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
The torture in hell though....it is YOU who invokes Dante with all that crap about levels in Hell. Where'd that come from..... If you are aware of Dante then i think he predates this westboro mob you keep refering too.

Dante definitely preceded the quacks at Westboro, but I don't get different levels from Dante but from scripture.

There has always been different levels of punishment just as there were always different levels of reward. This goes back to the Old Testament and I don't see the scriptural argument as to why this would suddenly change.
 

Moz

Religion. A pox on all their Houses.
Dante definitely preceded the quacks at Westboro, but I don't get different levels from Dante but from scripture.

There has always been different levels of punishment just as there were always different levels of reward. This goes back to the Old Testament and I don't see the scriptural argument as to why this would suddenly change.
Hi.
Ok i'll bite.
I'd be happy for you to show me the reasoning for multiple levels of punishment. Although i'm pretty sure we are going to run into the neo-platonic and aristotelian philosophies to incorporate them into scripture but i'd be interested to give it a go... we seem to have run the course on the other stuff.
For a start ....is your idea represented , to some degree, in Dante's Inferno?
And please.. the old testament references as well.
Peace.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Matthew 23:1-39...

"23 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying: 2 “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the seat of Moses. 3 Therefore, all the things they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds, for they say but they do not practice what they say. 4 They bind up heavy loads and put them on the shoulders of men, but they themselves are not willing to budge them with their finger. 5 All the works they do, they do to be seen by men, for they broaden the scripture-containing cases that they wear as safeguards and lengthen the fringes of their garments. 6 They like the most prominent place at evening meals and the front seats in the synagogues 7 and the greetings in the marketplaces and to be called Rabbi by men. 8 But you, do not you be called Rabbi, for one is your Teacher, and all of you are brothers. 9 Moreover, do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the heavenly One. 10 Neither be called leaders, for your Leader is one, the Christ. 11 But the greatest one among you must be your minister. 12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

13 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut up the Kingdom of the heavens before men; for you yourselves do not go in, neither do you permit those on their way in to go in. 14
15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you travel over sea and dry land to make one proselyte, and when he becomes one, you make him a subject for Ge·henʹna twice as much so as yourselves.

16 Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it is nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is under obligation.’ 17 Fools and blind ones! Which, in fact, is greater, the gold or the temple that has sanctified the gold? 18 Moreover, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it is nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is under obligation.’ 19 Blind ones! Which, in fact, is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift? 20 Therefore, whoever swears by the altar is swearing by it and by all the things on it; 21 and whoever swears by the temple is swearing by it and by the One inhabiting it; 22 and whoever swears by heaven is swearing by the throne of God and by the One sitting on it.

23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you give the tenth of the mint and the dill and the cumin, but you have disregarded the weightier matters of the Law, namely, justice and mercy and faithfulness. These things it was necessary to do, yet not to disregard the other things. 24 Blind guides, who strain out the gnat but gulp down the camel!

25 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you cleanse the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of greediness and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee, cleanse first the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of it may also become clean.

27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you resemble whitewashed graves, which outwardly indeed appear beautiful but inside are full of dead men’s bones and of every sort of uncleanness. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you build the graves of the prophets and decorate the tombs of the righteous ones, 30 and you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have shared with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 Therefore, you are testifying against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Well, then, fill up the measure of your forefathers.

33 “Serpents, offspring of vipers, how will you flee from the judgment of Ge·henʹna? 34 For this reason, I am sending to you prophets and wise men and public instructors. Some of them you will kill and execute on stakes, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 so that there may come upon you all the righteous blood spilled on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zech·a·riʹah son of Bar·a·chiʹah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

37 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent to her—how often I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings! But you did not want it. 38 Look! Your house is abandoned to you. 39 For I say to you, you will by no means see me from now until you say, ‘Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s name!’"


This is Christianity......this is what Jesus taught....right from the horse's mouth. The judgment that Christ passed on first century Judaism is the same judgment that he will pronounce on modern day Christendom....and for all the same reasons. They are clones of one another....corrupted by the same enemy of God.

And you are correct..."The religious zeal could be so much more helpful to the human family."
Jesus taught us how to be helpful to the human family by preaching to them.....offering the "good news of the kingdom" which will solve all of men's woes and rid the world of wickedness and those who practice it, once and for all. It means holding people to account for their choices and actions. Christ is not some mamby-pamby sop who is all forgiving or falls for crocodile tears......he judges with a sword not with a smack on the wrist.

Those who are religious hypocrites are classified as "wicked" and bound for gehenna, as Jesus said.
If this is an inconvenient truth, then I cannot apologise.
Of all the passages, parables and sermons in the Gospels and you pick out the "Woes?" You could have picked out "I am the Good Shepherd," the Beatitudes, the woman at the well, blind Bartimaeus. But you pick the one where Jesus says, "Damn you!"

Again, this religious zeal could be so much more helpful to the human family. You choose to "help" by being the Overbearing, Judgmental Mother. This isn't "Good News!" At all! You print it off here as though you know what Matthew has Jesus talking about; clearly you do not. If you think that this kind of diatribe against me, my father, my grandfather, my mother, and my friends and colleagues who have -- and are -- giving our lives for the Gospel, taking care of the Christian household, curating the Apostles' teaching, is any boon for humankind, you are sadly, sadly mistaken in your misplaced ego.

If you want to see a religious hypocrite, I can point one out -- it's the one picking specks out of the eyes of some while ignoring the entitled, egotistical, bitter forest in one's own. I wonder who here is acting like the ones Jesus rails against in the passage above. You pick out a text that doesn't even apply to the Christian household, grossly misinterpret it, and hit us over the head time and time again. Enough! Enough! I'm a tolerant man; I like to give people the benefit of the doubt and I try to respect others' beliefs. I don't pass judgment and foist my beliefs on others. But the time has come to say "No!"

I don't believe you're trying to "offer the Good News of the Kin-dom." Good News doesn't consist of "Hey, Hypocirite! You're the plague and I'm here to get rid of you!" That's not what Jesus taught! In one instance, though, you are correct. Christ isn't "some mamby-pamby sop." Jesus went to the mat in love for us. Jesus did his best to get us to open our hearts, to come together as a humanity who would live life in God. You have taken the Good News and turned it into a punch line. Christ didn't come to pass judgment. Christ came because "God so loved the world." Christ came to reconcile -- not to condemn! Christ came so that the world might be saved, not have spiritual poo flung at it in his name. Christ came to find and rescue the lost sheep -- not pick it up and throw it off the cliff. Jesus gathers little children and blesses them; he doesn't exterminate them for being "EEEEEEVIIIIIILL!!"

The misrepresentation of the Good News and of the Christian household is no longer tolerated.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Why is there never scripture in your responses?

Of all the passages, parables and sermons in the Gospels and you pick out the "Woes?" You could have picked out "I am the Good Shepherd," the Beatitudes, the woman at the well, blind Bartimaeus. But you pick the one where Jesus says, "Damn you!"

You know, this is very telling. No one wants to see Jesus as a judge....and yet that is what God appointed him to do. You just want the nice things to be focused on.....but the judgment is the finale'. Its where we stand come judgment day that matters. (Acts 17:30-31) How "nice" will Jesus be to those who offend his Father?

I "picked the one where Jesus says "damn you!""....because it is Jesus himself who warns us about history repeating. The 'accepted' form of worship among the people in his day was the one he came to expose as false. Only a relative "few" from that religious system actually listened to Jesus and followed him out of that corrupted religion.
What was Jesus' judgment against them?

Matthew 23:37-39...
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent to her—how often I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings! But you did not want it. 38 Look! Your house is abandoned to you. 39 For I say to you, you will by no means see me from now until you say, ‘Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s name!’”

When in the last two millenniums have those people "blessed the one who came in Jehovah's name"?
As a nation, they reject him to this day. Individuals who heard Jesus, did respond to his teachings.

Think back to the days of Noah and understand what Jesus said about the days before he comes to judge the world.....

Matthew 24:37-39...
37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, 39 and they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be."

What is the similarity? Why did Jesus give this warning?
The apostle Peter called Noah a "preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5) so all the while he was building that enormous structure, he was preaching to the people about what God was going to do. But they all chose to ignore and even ridicule him.

What are we seeing again that shows us where we are in the stream of time? The world is seething with monumental problems......violence and immorality dominate human thinking. Along with the perpetrators of that violence and immorality in Noah's day, were the victims of it....they did not survive the flood either...do you know why?

If Jesus is about to judge the world, then where does that leave those who ignore him? More importantly, where does it leave those who feel that their worship is good enough for them, but is not good enough for his Father?

Matthew 7:21-23...
21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’"

Who is Jesus rejecting here? These are people who claim Jesus as their "Lord" but who are NOT "doing the will of the Father". He doesn't just discipline them and then accept them, because they should never have adopted the beliefs and practices that made them unacceptable to their judge in the first place. He REJECTS them outright, as those he has NEVER recognized. They can't believe it!

Christendom has replaced the Father with his Son, creating a false three headed god that bears no similarity to the God of the Bible at all. This is a breach of the First Commandment, (Exodus 20:3) making them lawbreakers....blasphemers.

They have replaced Christ's teaching of the resurrection with the doctrine of an immortal soul...perpetuating the first lie that satan told in Eden"....you surely will not die". They have changed the meaning of death.

And they have painted God as a cruel fiend by suggesting that he would torture souls forever in the flames of hell......something he would never do. (Jeremiah 7:31)
All of these ideas, and many others taught as Bible truth, come straight out of ancient Babylon.

How will people ever stop to evaluate what kind of "Christianity" they are practicing, if no one prompts them to do so. Isn't that what Jesus did with the "lost sheep" to whom he was sent?
He offered them the truth on a "take it or leave it" basis. How many accepted it? Certainly not the majority.

He did not go to the religious leaders, but to those who were "lost" in a religious system that had exchanged the word of God for "the traditions of men". (Matthew 15:7-9) Jesus exposed that rot and in the process, rescued those whose hearts were responsive to his words. Not everyone responded well....in fact, when brought before Pilate, the people were so sure that their religious leaders were correct about this false Messiah, that they cursed themselves and even their own children with Jesus' blood. (Matthew 27:24-25)
No one can afford to be complacent.

We all need to examine what we believe and check whether it is something that Jesus actually taught...or whether it is an exchange of the truth of God's word, for the traditions of men....history repeating.

If you are so sure that what I am saying means nothing more than an insult to you and your ancestors...then I have nothing more to say to you. My job is done.
'Shaking the dust off'.....just like you can.

I don't believe you're trying to "offer the Good News of the Kin-dom." Good News doesn't consist of "Hey, Hypocirite! You're the plague and I'm here to get rid of you!" That's not what Jesus taught!

It is what Jesus taught to his religious opposers. What you seem to forget is that these opposers were member of his own religion. It was good news for those who listened...bad news for those who clung to the status quo. You see no similarity?

The misrepresentation of the Good News and of the Christian household is no longer tolerated.

Duly noted. It's all about decisions...if you have made yours, then nothing I say should have any impact on you. The fact that it does means what?
What did Jesus tell us to expect?

Matthew 5:11...
11 “Happy are you when people reproach you and persecute you and lyingly say every sort of wicked thing against you for my sake. 12 Rejoice and be overjoyed, since your reward is great in the heavens, for in that way they persecuted the prophets prior to you."

If what I am saying is not true, then why are you not rejoicing? :shrug: Am I not fulfilling scripture for you?
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
Hi.
Ok i'll bite.
I'd be happy for you to show me the reasoning for multiple levels of punishment.

Let's start with the Old Testament.

We know from standard cursory reading that not all sin is the same to God. If it were, all punishment would be the same but that's not what we read in Exodus:

But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise. (Exodus 21:23-25)

It's not eye for foot, bruise for life, or some other strange combination. Instead, the punishment is metered by the transgression, so there is different punishment based on the level, or degree of sin.

We're going to verify this theme by looking at more scripture:

…then it shall be if the wicked man deserves to be beaten, the judge shall then make him lie down and be beaten in his presence with the number of stripes according to his guilt. He may beat him forty times but no more, lest he beat him with many more stripes than these, and your brother be degraded in your eyes.

Right away we see the wicked man is punished according to guilt. He is not "tortured" or "degraded" by many lashes. Instead the punishment is in accordance with the transgression.

In fact, we can go through the Mosaic Law and see this theme through out....the greater the sin, the greater the punishment. The more sins you commit, the higher the degree of punishment. The less sin you commit, the milder the punishment.

That's how things worked in the Old Testament. But what about the New?

There are plenty of NT verses that tells us this same concept carries over to the New Testament as well. We'll start with why many Christians prefer to spread the Good News by "sharing" rather than "teaching" like the Witnesses:

Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we shall incur a stricter judgment. (James 3:1-2)

Note the words "stricter judgment". If our punishment is all the same....we are annihilated and "cease to exist", it's pretty hard to imagine how we would suffer a "stricter judgment". It would have to be the "same judgment" would it not? But in any event, it's pretty evident the theme of incremental punishment, or punishment that suits the crime, is present here in the NT just as it is in the Old. Instead the more we claim we know, the higher the standard to which we are judged.

Let's take another look:

Nevertheless I say to you, it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment, than for you. And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You shall descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day. Nevertheless I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for you.”

Again, if our judgment is the same...to be annihilated... then it's hard to imagine how it's would be more "tolerable" for Sodom to face annihilation then it would be for anyone else facing the exact same annihilation.

Is one annihilation more tolerable than another? Perhaps Witnesses believe Jehovah will play soft music when He resurrects Sodom (so He properly vaporize and make them non-existent again) but will offer no such comfort to those of Capernaum.

At least that's how I see it. These verses make no sense if the wicked face annihilation, but they make perfect sense if they face various levels of punishment.

There is also something else I think we should glean...different levels of punishment did not originate with 13th century poets, but they may have tried to illustrate them.

Although i'm pretty sure we are going to run into the neo-platonic and aristotelian philosophies to incorporate them into scripture

Thanks but i’ll pass on that one. I would have no interest in incorporating the works of Plato, Aristotle or even Socrates into scripture.


For a start ....is your idea represented , to some degree, in Dante's Inferno?

As much as I might like to take a small inspirational credit for Dante's Inferno, it simply wasn't my idea. I'm old Moz, but I ain't t that old.:eek:

But if the "Burn in Hell" idea was actually being taught to him at the time, I would expect to see a single circle.
 

Moz

Religion. A pox on all their Houses.
Hi.

Where to start ..... ok i'll start with this..... We know from standard cursory reading that not all sin is the same to God.
My reply to this is,i think you are conflating different issues and viewing them in unison.
I think ALL sin is the same in Gods eyes.... it is missing the mark and he has a set punishment.
I think that certain CRIMES in Gods eyes deserve proportional punishments while one is alive.


As far as i can tell THIS is the only thing God says about sin in a general manner.......
Gen 2: 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden;17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

In Eden when laying out the punishment for sin God said the punishment was death. Paul reaffirms this in ....
Romans 6: 23 The wages that sin pays are death, but God’s gift is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
So in both accounts here we see the ultimate punishment for Sin is Death. No other mention about degrees of death or levels of suffering depending on how bad of a sinner you are... just dead.

The examples you showed were laws and punishments that are needed within a functioning society to keep it going. Obviously their are grades of punishments for crimes against the laws of the society you live in. You tend not to be executed for littering for example. But to transfer this to the eternal, when death is the only punishment mentioned in scripture is a mistake.

You obviously don't think that thieves will be in hell without their hand because that was the punishment prescribed do you? What if you stole more than twice,, you've run out of hands so what are you somehow cool now because the punishment has been done? Hitler killed millions how many "Life for a life" punishments can you get?

What you need to show me is how these levels are applied to punishment AFTER death.Not implied but applied. Where is it explained to us in the bible, in contradiction of Genesis and Romans, that if we are only a little bad then hell will only be a little bad.

The lake of fire seems a pretty singular phenomenon without the scope for these seperate levels. Revelation seems to have ALL the reprobate chucked into the fire together. No priority seating in the better, less hurty, section is mentioned. Surely that would have been the place to say the liars went here and the murders went lower.

.........................
If you are correct shouldn't Gen2:16 have mentioned that mankind would receive proportional punishment according to the severity of their sins. Seems only fair to warn them doesn't it

Here this might help me understand where you are coming from............
Do you view Lazarus and the rich man as representitive of hell?
If so, do you believe that the righteous will be able to see and hear the lost in hell?
Will sin and hate fro GOD exist forever?

Peace.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
There is certainly a hell Moz, because that's what scripture tells us, but it also tells us there will be different levels of our own making, and I suspect only the demons will be at the lowest level, but I cannot predict who will be lowered there anymore than I can predict who will be raised in heaven.

And which "hell" would that be? "Sheol"? "Hades" "Gehenna"? "Tartarus"? "the lake of fire"?
Where will I find "levels of hell"? Where does the Bible put demons on the lowest level?

In the Bible, "hades" in Greek is the equivalent of "Sheol" in Hebrew. It is not a place of conscious existence, but a place of complete unconscious inactivity.

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6, 10....
"5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun.....

10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, where you are going."


There you have it...a direct statement about what happens at death....nothing.

I don't recall ever hearing a sermon where God tortures those in hell.

Those in hades are 'tormented' according to Christendom's version of hell....'weeping and gnashing their teeth'. How do you not recall this?

There has always been different levels of punishment just as there were always different levels of reward. This goes back to the Old Testament and I don't see the scriptural argument as to why this would suddenly change.

Hang on...are we talking about punishment for the living or the dead? Did the punishments apply to everyone...or just the Jews? Did they know the penalty before they committed the crime?

Seems to me that the Bible outlines punishments for the living who break God's laws....and yes different crimes meant different punishments according to the seriousness of the offense.....but in death, all go to the same place.....sheol.....the grave. In sheol, no one is alive and hence no suffering or joy.

Jesus said he would raise the "righteous" and the "unrighteous" who will both come out of their graves (John 5:28-29)....both have paid sin's wages. All their former sins are wiped away by Jesus' sacrifice. The "righteous" have nothing more to prove, having died faithful to death....the "unrighteous" get another chance to prove themselves before God in a period of judgment, unless of course God has consigned them to "gehenna". Only he knows who are worthy to remain out of his sight....out of existence.

But this reminds me of a story.

There once was a prison, full of prisoners in what could only be describes as the most horrendous of conditions. Each day any prisoner might find themselves beaten, drugged, dragged, hosed...you name it. Sometimes by each other, sometimes by the prison guards.

Incredibly, despite this torture, none of the family members, prison guards, nor the prisoners thought it was better that the prisoners be put to death, even when they heard they might get a second chance during a resurrection and thus save the community and taxpayers a bundle of money.

I think that would have been a disgusting concept, so let's just pray our prisons never fall prey to the tender mercies of Jehovah Witnesses.
You construct a strawman and then demolish him? Well done.
sign0098.gif


There is nothing in our belief system that justifies any human taking the life of another. That cannot be said about Christendom. If the world wants to participate in bloodshed, then that is up to them....we are to be "no part" of that world, (John 17:16) which means we have no political agenda to force us to divide our loyalties between God's Kingdom and man's. We are no threat to any government because we are peaceful, unarmed, law-abiding citizens of whatever nation we reside in. Any government persecution of Jehovah's Witnesses is therefore based on false propaganda...usually supplied by the churches of Christendom.

Jesus' words ring true of his true disciples today, as they did back in the first century.....
"If the world hates you, you know that it has hated me before it hated you. 19 If you were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because you are no part of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, for this reason the world hates you. 20 Keep in mind the word I said to you: A slave is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have observed my word, they will also observe yours. 21 But they will do all these things against you on account of my name, because they do not know the One who sent me."
 
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sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
How will people ever stop to evaluate what kind of "Christianity" they are practicing, if no one prompts them to do so. Isn't that what Jesus did with the "lost sheep" to whom he was sent?
He offered them the truth on a "take it or leave it" basis. How many accepted it? Certainly not the majority.
It's not your job to prompt us. You aren't Jesus.

No one can afford to be complacent.
Please stop with the "building a sense of urgency into the client" used car sales pitch. This isn't a "72 Buick -- its the Gospel.

It is what Jesus taught to his religious opposers.
We're not opposers!

What did Jesus tell us to expect?
Jesus told us to expect that he was going to prepare a place for us, that he wouldn't leave us comfortless, that he expected us to LOVE ONE ANOTHER, not pick each other apart.

11 “Happy are you when people reproach you and persecute you and lyingly say every sort of wicked thing against you for my sake. 12 Rejoice and be overjoyed, since your reward is great in the heavens, for in that way they persecuted the prophets prior to you."

If what I am saying is not true, then why are you not rejoicing? :shrug: Am I not fulfilling scripture for you?

Great! Now you're twisting one of the most beautiful passages of scripture to justify hurting other people. Mark 9:42.

I find your posts and the attitude they display despicable, vile, and harmful.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
It's not your job to prompt us. You aren't Jesus.

It's my job to be a messenger. It's an assignment given to all of Jesus' disciples, to "preach the good news of the kingdom in all the inhabited earth as a witness to all the nations" before the foretold "end" of the devil's world rulership comes. (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20) Who else is doing this? Jesus' Jewish disciples called on their Jewish neighbors. (Matthew 10:11-15) We call on our Christian neighbors.....and anyone from any other faith who will listen. (John 15:20)

Romans 10:13-15....
"For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.” 14 However, how will they call on him if they have not put faith in him? How, in turn, will they put faith in him about whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach? 15 How, in turn, will they preach unless they have been sent out? Just as it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who declare good news of good things!”

One of the wonderful things about the Kingdom is that it will be free of false religious beliefs, divisions and hypocrisy. There will be one united brotherhood of man....all worshipping the same God, with one set of beliefs, and enjoying God's creation in peace and security. That is "the good news of the kingdom".

It's not all about going to heaven because that is not where God ever intended for humans to live. The fact that he selected a pre-determined number to fill the ranks of a heavenly government that will bring redeemed mankind into reconciliation with God, is good news for those who have by nature a desire to live in paradise, which was originally right here on earth. God's purpose for the human race never changed. (Isaiah 55:11) The Kingdom is how God brings us back to him.
A special anointing is required to give certain "chosen ones" a desire to go to heaven......as Paul said, it is a "heavenly calling" (Hebrews 3:1) Not all have it.

Please stop with the "building a sense of urgency into the client" used car sales pitch. This isn't a "72 Buick -- its the Gospel.

The sense of urgency has been there from the beginning of the Christian ministry.

2 Timothy 4:2-4...Paul's words to Timothy....
"Preach the word; be at it urgently in favorable times and difficult times; reprove, reprimand, exhort, with all patience and art of teaching."
Why was it urgent? Why the need to "reprove, reprimand" and "exhort" ?

"For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the wholesome teaching, but according to their own desires, they will surround themselves with teachers to have their ears tickled. 4 They will turn away from listening to the truth and give attention to false stories."

1 Timothy 4:16
"Pay constant attention to yourself and to your teaching. Persevere in these things, for by doing this you will save both yourself and those who listen to you."

Paying constant attention to what we are taught is essential. Always compare what we believe with God's word. You can tell the ones who don't because they only know a smattering of scripture that has been distorted to support their beliefs. What does the Bible in its entirety teach? It's one story from beginning to end. It never contradicts its own teachings.

We're not opposers!

The Jews didn't think that they were opposers of their God, did they? They thought that they had the true faith and that the Christians were the opposers.....remember?

The ones Jesus rejects at the judgment time don't believe that they are opposers either. (Matthew 7:21-23)

Opposers taught what was NOT in God's word and according to Paul's warning above, false teachers were to slip into the Christian congregation and turn people away from the truth to misleading things and false stories. It didn't happen recently.

People have no idea how far from Christ's teachings those false teachers have led them. The Jews didn't either. What was taught was a distortion, but it was all they knew. Christianity suffered the same fate....but it was foretold, so how can you deny that it happened? How can you be so sure that you teach the truth?

I believe that Christendom is a counterfeit....the worthless "weeds" sown by the devil. It's pathetically divided state is proof of that. (1 Corinthians 1:10) It fails to uphold the teachings of Christ in all the important areas of worship. It is a force for nothing of value because it has no answers to the hard questions that people want to know. I was one of them once....frustrated because of all the inconsistencies. All my questions are answered now...straight from the Bible.

Jesus told us to expect that he was going to prepare a place for us, that he wouldn't leave us comfortless, that he expected us to LOVE ONE ANOTHER, not pick each other apart.

Who was Jesus going to prepare a place for? Every Christian? That is not what the Bible teaches at all. He was addressing those who were parties to the new covenant that he instituted on the night of his arrest. These were "the elect"...the chosen ones whom he said would be "kings and priests" with him in his Kingdom. (Revelation 20:6) This "little flock" (Luke 12:32) was going to have the role of bringing redeemed mankind back to God. (Revelation 21:2-4) They are chosen by God, not men.

Kings need subjects and priests need sinners for whom to act as priestly intercessors....so in your scenario...who are these subjects and sinners? Those in heaven do not need priests because they are no longer sinful. And do kings rule other kings?

Jesus also said that "the meek will inherit the earth"....how can they do that if everyone goes to heaven?

Great! Now you're twisting one of the most beautiful passages of scripture to justify hurting other people. Mark 9:42.

Am I?
Mark 9:42...
"But whoever stumbles one of these little ones who have faith, it would be better for him if a millstone that is turned by a donkey were put around his neck and he were pitched into the sea."

In context, who is Jesus addressing here? It is his own apostles. They have just witnessed a man expelling demons by the use of Jesus' name and they wanted to prevent him. But Jesus acknowledged that this man was doing so in faith, so they were not to stop him, which would be faith destroying to him.

Correcting people's wrong ideas is not stumbling them. Jesus did not hold back the truth because he might offend someone.
A case in point was when he spoke about 'eating his flesh and drinking his blood'.....something his Jewish audience found shocking! They left in disgust! When Jesus asked the apostles (who were equally shocked) if they wanted to leave too, Peter answered "Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life" So instead of walking off in a huff like the rest, they stayed because they knew he would explain his words to them. (John 6:48-67)
In verse 63 he said....."The sayings that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life." He was speaking spiritually, not literally.

Since no one can understand anything pertaining to God's purpose through his son without it being granted by the Father, (John 6:65) then that would also explain why Christendom is so fragmented in her beliefs.

God will "draw" those to his truth who really have a desire to learn it. He will protect his own and reveal his truth to them.
“It is not a desirable thing to my Father who is in heaven for even one of these little ones to perish.” (Matthew 18:14)

I find your posts and the attitude they display despicable, vile, and harmful.

That is your prerogative....perhaps you should put me on ignore, since you find my posts so offensive.

I will never apologise for telling the truth. I hold no animosity towards you personally, but I strongly believe that you have been misled, just as you believe the same about me.

I came out of Christendom a long time ago....grateful for the freedom and knowledge it opened up to me. (John 8:32)

All I wish for you and all those deceived into accepting Christendom's beliefs, is the truth. It is truly liberating.
 
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sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
It's my job to be a messenger
You need a better job description. And a job evaluation is in order. You’re delivering the wrong message to the wrong people, and you’re crossing boundaries doing it. In any company, that’s grounds for dismissal.

It's an assignment given to all of Jesus' disciples, to "preach the good news of the kingdom
I’m still waiting for you to begin doing that. So far, all I’m getting is baseless judgment and staggeringly deficient interpretations.
One of the wonderful things about the Kingdom is that it will be free of false religious beliefs, divisions and hypocrisy
Then you certainly won’t be there, by your standards.

There will be one united brotherhood of man....all worshipping the same God, with one set of beliefs, and enjoying God's creation in peace and security. That is "the good news of the kingdom
So... the “good news” is that everyone will believe as YOU do.
The sense of urgency has been there from the beginning of the Christian ministry
Yeah. But there’s a difference between “We need to get your burst appendix out right now” and “OMG!!! What if it’s TADAYYY?!?!?! That other guy is gonna buy it out from under you and then you’ll be screwed!!!” One is a valid emergency. The other is baseless scare tactic.

You can tell the ones who don't because they only know a smattering of scripture that has been distorted to support their beliefs
Take a good look in the mirror.
What does the Bible in its entirety teach? It's one story from beginning to end. It never contradicts its own teachings
See above. You’re supposed to be a messenger, but you don’t even understand the nature of the message. It’s like delivering a jar of alphabet noodles when you’re supposed to be reading poetry in Arabic.
The Jews didn't think that they were opposers of their God, did they?
They’re not.

The ones Jesus rejects at the judgment time don't believe that they are opposers either
I think you may be in for a surprise. No matter. I believe God will give you the benefit of the doubt.
How can you be so sure that you teach the truth?
How can you? Difference between you and me is that you assume that you are the curator of THE TRUTH that must be dispensed to all of the misguided fools in the world. I trust that God is big enough to help all people to discover their truth and to empower them to share it with each other.

I believe that Christendom is a counterfeit....the worthless "weeds" sown by the devil.
Thanks once again for your scornful attitude toward me, my father, mother, grandfather, and friends and colleagues. Your outpouring of “Christian love” is overwhelming.
It fails to uphold the teachings of Christ in all the important areas of worship. It is a force for nothing of value because it has no answers to the hard questions that people want to know
See above. You’re not qualified to make those evaluations. I’d place more trust in a day-old Twinkie to be a good judge of Christian teachings and worship, and to know what the value of Christianity is.

What we do is provide space for people to ask the questions and wrestle with them in a loving, Christian context. The only answer I’ve heard out of any of you is, “Uuuhhh... 42! yeah! That’s it. 42!”

I was one of them once....frustrated because of all the inconsistencies. All my questions are answered now...straight from the Bible
Dear God! An embittered, entitled “messenger” who comes bringing “42!”

Correcting people's wrong ideas is not stumbling them
I’m still waiting for you to correct anything. and still waiting for you to stop browbeating everyone who deigns to disagree with you.

I will never apologise for telling the truth
Do you really want to know what Jesus taught? Do you? Do you want the answer you’ve been searching for?




Wait for it....
















Jesus taught...














Humility.

Learn it. Know it. Live it.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
@sojourner...what did you address in that post or any other? All I see is selected points to be emotionally defensive about.

You did not address anything....as usual. Are you really too wounded to give us the scriptural basis for what you believe? Where did you address the scripture I gave you to back up all that I said? Give me something other than retaliation....or hurt feelings...they are hardly the basis for debate.

Its not what you say that speaks volumes...its what you ignore that is telling. There are so many points that have just been waved away......why do you never address them?

Acts 4:29-31....
"And now, Jehovah, give attention to their threats, and grant to your slaves to keep speaking your word with all boldness, 30 while you stretch out your hand for healing and while signs and wonders occur through the name of your holy servant Jesus.”

31 And when they had made supplication, the place where they were gathered together was shaken, and they were one and all filled with the holy spirit and were speaking the word of God with boldness."


Please don't mistake confidence for arrogance.....confidence in what you believe gives a person conviction. Conviction produces the kind of boldness that isn't swayed by needless emotion or the baseless accusations of opposers. Jesus taught in strong opposition from his own fellow believers.....supposedly worshippers of the same God. Was he kind and compassionate to the Religious Leaders who had led his nation into apostasy? Didn't he have very strong words for them? Has he changed? (Matthew 7:21-23)

I've been on both sides of this fence and I know where I believe the truth is found....and where it isn't. If you and your ancestors want to believe what Christendom has taught you, then you are welcome to all of it.

You seem to be able to defend your feelings but not your beliefs....o_O Why?

It is apparent that your Jesus is not my Jesus.....so will the real Jesus please stand up.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
..what did you address in that post or any other? All I see is selected points to be emotionally defensive about
I addressed your self-righteous attitude that results in insult with nothing real to base it on. Please don’t try the “I know you’re so wounded” ploy. I’m not wounded and I’m not defensive. Outraged? Yes. After baselessly attacking my beliefs and those of my family and friends, I’m bound to have something to say.

You did not address anything....as usual
See above. You’re spouting some pretend something-or-other that seeks to usurp Christianity and present it as somehow valid through twisting disparate texts — because that’s what you’re trained to do — training masquerading as “bible study.” When you misrepresent the Faith, I’m going to have something to say about it.

Where did you address the scripture I gave you to back up all that I said?
You haven’t presented any scripture that proves anything other than you know how to twist scripture and use it against others. I’m not falling for that trap.
Give me something other than retaliation
Give me something other than baseless insult.
Its not what you say that speaks volumes...its what you ignore that is telling
What I ignore are baseless arguments. If you’d present something worth arguing about, perhaps we’d get somewhere. But when you spout scriptural drivel and pretend that recognized scholars and hermeneutics are”fake,” we have no basis for a debate. We can’t debate the state of the atmosphere when you adamantly deny that there even is an atmosphere.

There are so many points that have just been waved away......why do you never address them
Again, see above. You preach — you don’t debate. And you’ree Preaching utter garbage — in the name of MY religion.

and were speaking the word of God with boldness
I have yet to hear the word of God from you. I’m still waiting.
Please don't mistake confidence for arrogance
Please don’t mistake arrogance for knowledge.

. Conviction produces the kind of boldness that isn't swayed by needless emotion or the baseless accusations of opposers
Arrogance produces the kind of aggression that crosses boundaries of social responsibility.

Was he kind and compassionate to the Religious Leaders who had led his nation into apostasy? Didn't he have very strong words for them
Can you prove that I’m one of those leaders?

I've been on both sides of this fence and I know where I believe the truth is found....and where it isn't. If you and your ancestors want to believe what Christendom has taught you, then you are welcome to all of it
Apparently not, because you just keep right on bulling your way through, hurling insults.

You seem to be able to defend your feelings but not your beliefs....o_O Why
I have no need to defend my faith — you haven’t addressed my faith. But you have questioned my honor.

It is apparent that your Jesus is not my Jesus.....so will the real Jesus please stand up
I suggest, then, that you find a different Jesus.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Anyone who has read your responses to me will see nothing but defensive, emotional boo hooing.
sad0068.gif

You are offended by what I said? Why? It was not directed at you personally. My criticism is about Christendom...the place where I grew up. I am not an outsider looking in, but a survivor who saw the truth and left.

Didn't Jesus tell us that we would be targets for those who see us as enemies? (John 15:18-20) Were we supposed to get all wounded and defensive?...or even outraged? Persecution goes with the territory....we are supposed to armed with "the sword of the spirit"? and protected by our spiritual armour? Have you misplaced yours? Or are you just out of ammo?

I see no real responses to any of my points....just outrage and hurt feelings.....really?
confused0069.gif
If you can't take the criticism, then why are you here?

Go over all the scriptural points I have made and respond to them equally with scripture. This is a debate forum, not a be nice to the poster above you forum.

The one scripture you did use was out of context and meaningless in the discussion. Is this all you have? Seriously?

Enough with the boo hoos already. o_O
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
Hi.

Where to start ..... ok i'll start with this..... We know from standard cursory reading that not all sin is the same to God.
My reply to this is,i think you are conflating different issues and viewing them in unison.
I think ALL sin is the same in Gods eyes.... it is missing the mark and he has a set punishment.

Correct! You mentioned it is missing the mark, because that is what sin is. You mentioned He has set punishment, but you can't possibly be telling us every punishment is the same. Well, you could, but it wouldn't be scriptural.

I think that certain CRIMES in Gods eyes deserve proportional punishments...

CRIMES in God eyes are SINS in Gods eyes. If the sin or crime merits proportional punishment depending on the sin, how can you say "ALL sin is the same in God's eyes"?



...while one is alive.

I'm not sure what you mean by "while one is alive". If you are an annihilationist, who believes we "cease to exist" (as your arguments make you appear to be), then sin cannot possibly occur when one is dead and no proportional punishment

As far as i can tell THIS is the only thing God says about sin in a general manner.......
Gen 2: 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden;17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”


You’ve read scripture and that was the only thing you found “about sin in a general manner”?

Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin." (John 19;11)

If “ALL sin is the same in God’s eyes”, how could Caiaphas have “greater sin”?
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
You are offended by what I said? Why? It was not directed at you personally. My criticism is about Christendom...the place where I grew up
I’m an ordained member of the clergy. That places me within the heart of Christendom. Therefore, you are directing criticism at me personally.
Didn't Jesus tell us that we would be targets for those who see us as enemies? (John 15:18-20) Were we supposed to get all wounded and defensive
First off you can dispense with trying to undermine me and the authority I carry within the Faith by suggesting that I’m in any way “wounded” or “defensive.” I’m neither. Second, I’m still trying to figure out why you want to build fences and call me an “enemy.” I find your posts increasingly glib and sophomoric. You are not displaying the spirit of Christ in your comments.

Persecution goes with the territory....we are supposed to armed with "the sword of the spirit"? and protected by our spiritual armour? Have you misplaced yours? Or are you just out of ammo?
This doesn’t give you license to engage in usurping the Faith, calling people names and twisting the texts. The post above is blatant bullying and will be reported.
I see no real responses to any of my points....just outrage and hurt feelings.....really?
confused0069.gif
If you can't take the criticism, then why are you here
I see no real points; just bullying.

Go over all the scriptural points I have made and respond to them equally with scripture. This is a debate forum, not a be nice to the poster above you forum
I’m not interested in a scriptural slugfest. I don’t treat the texts in that way. Theological and ecclesial points can be debated without the use of scripture for those of us who don’t subscribe to this ‘Bible only” nonsense.

Enough with the boo hoos already
Enough with the jabs already.
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
In Eden when laying out the punishment for sin God said the punishment was death. Paul reaffirms this in ....
Romans 6: 23 The wages that sin pays are death, but God’s gift is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 6:23 says no such thing. The verse has simply been modified to adhere to Watchtower doctrine. 6:23 is better translated thusly:

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

These two translations give us entirely different meanings. The Watchtower's translations tells us that when we die our sins are washed clean. The standard, biblical interpretation tells us we die because we sin.

So which is correct? Instead of looking at the NWT try looking at their Greek Interlinear.


Romans 6-23.png


There is no verb "pays" in the Interlinear as there is in the NWT, so it shows the standard Christian translation, without the spurious insertion of "pays" to be superior.

But I don’t want to leave that right there. Let’s suppose the Watchtower’s mis-translation was somehow correct. What would that mean?

It would mean everyone who has ever died and everyone that Jehovah kills at Armageddon would have paid for their sins! Hitler would have paid off his sin simply by dying. The wicked, all slated to die at the impending Armageddon would have their sins paid off as soon as Jehovah killed them.

So who would not have their sins paid off? Why it would be all the Jehovah Witnesses who didn’t die during Armageddon, because they haven’t "paid" for their sins with death. They survived Armageddon rather than dying in it.

So the wicked, having paid their sins via death, would be resurrected and be in a much more righteous and justified position than any of the Jehovah Witnesses who survived Armageddon!

It simply makes no sense.

So in both accounts here we see the ultimate punishment for Sin is Death. No other mention about degrees of death or levels of suffering depending on how bad of a sinner you are... just dead.

I am not sure what you mean by “degrees of death” but there are certainly degrees of punishment. The degree of punishment is defined by the degree of sin. Another way of looking at this is the degree or extent to which you have fallen off the mark. Some of our activities will "miss the mark" more than others.

The examples you showed were laws and punishments that are needed within a functioning society to keep it going.

The examples I showed were BIBLICAL, not civil examples Moz. I cited scripture and gave the chapter and verse number. The Mosaic laws came from God not from men.

Let’s not forget the Jews were surrounded by functioning societies who had no such scripturally based laws. The “Law” of the surrounding nations could vary wildly based on position, rank, class, wealth, status, or by whatever happened to come out of the mouth of the one in authority.

Obviously their are grades of punishments for crimes against the laws of the society you live in.You tend not to be executed for littering for example.

Likewise it's just as obvious there are grades of punishment for crimes or sins against God. You are not sentenced to death for everything you do wrong.

But to transfer this to the eternal, when death is the only punishment mentioned in scripture is a mistake.

Why do you believe “death is the only punishment mentioned in scripture”? I see that as your mistake, not mine. I’m not aware of any church that believes "death is the only punishment in scripture" so this appears to be a personal opinion and not one of church doctrine. Am I correct in this?

I can respect the personal opinions of posters here, but I don't see how yours is backed by scripture. It’s certainly not reflected in the Laws handed down to us by God. From my perspective it would make the “laws of the society” more just than the laws of God!

JW’s believe death is the only punishment you receive if you sin after the 1,000 year reign, but even they don’t believe death is the only punishment in scripture. They can certainly correct me on this if I am wrong.

The purpose of the Mosaic Law was to make the Jews MORE Godly, not LESS, so God is not going to give us Laws that separate us FURTHER from His sense of Divine justice. If the ONLY punishment mentioned in scripture is death, then when you lie you die, and meting out the death penalty to every liar would make us all the more Godly.

In fact, according to your statements here, meting out the death penalty for any sin makes us MORE like God! :confused:

 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
You obviously don't think that thieves will be in hell without their hand because that was the punishment prescribed do you?

No, that would be nonsensical. Any blade forged by man cuts through flesh, not the spirit.

What if you stole more than twice,, you've run out of hands so what are you somehow cool now because the punishment has been done?

First, I’m not sure how cool it is to lose your hands because of theft. It’s a type of coolness I hope to never experience.

But, to answer your question directly, the thief who lost his hand because of theft has paid a handsome price for his thievery. If he confessed to the authorities that he stole previously then the prior thefts are forgiven with the loss of his hand.

If he has NOT confessed to his prior thefts then he still has sins that remain between him and God. He will have to answer for those sins at the time of judgment.

Hitler killed millions how many "Life for a life" punishments can you get?

This is an excellent question easily answered if you know there is punishment after death. But how do YOU answer it? According to what you’ve told me here Hitler paid for his sins in full as soon he blew his brains out in a bunker.

Thus his final act of sin paid off all his sins! Does that make any sense??


Let's continue the WT's translation of Romans 6:23 and their rationale a bit further.

Are you an annihilationist like the Witnesses? Then Hitler immediately “ceased to exist” and can no longer pay for his crimes, let alone for the death of anyone else. Nor does he have to worry about them…because people who don't exist don't worry.

Do you believe that God will recreate Hitler from memory? If so, does that mean Hitler will now be absolved of the 7 million or so deaths he caused because he already paid the wages of sin with his death, or does it mean God will have to recreate and destroy him 7 million times in order to execute righteous judgment, thus forcing Hitler to pay for each death caused?

And finally, if God does resurrect and destroy him millions of times, will Hitler have one final resurrection and opportunity to learn "accurate knowledge" that allows him to live until at least the end of the thousand years, especially if he can show no one knocked on his door to offer a bible study?

What you need to show me is how these levels are applied to punishment AFTER death.Not implied but applied. Where is it explained to us in the bible, in contradiction of Genesis and Romans, that if we are only a little bad then hell will only be a little bad.

The Mosaic Law was not in contradiction with Genesis, and the various levels of punishment for sin are not implied but rather explicitly stated within the laws, rules and regulations that come from God and directly applied to the lives of those living in Israel.

The lake of fire seems a pretty singular phenomenon without the scope for these seperate levels. Revelation seems to have ALL the reprobate chucked into the fire together. No priority seating in the better, less hurty, section is mentioned. Surely that would have been the place to say the liars went here and the murders went lower.

I’m not sure what you mean.

We reap what we sow and God is fair and just. When a liar sows lies he reaps the fruit of his own labor and the tree (the lie he planted, watered, and nurtured) is cut down with all its rotten fruit and that is thrown into the fire with him (Matthew 3:10; Matthew 7:19). The murderer doesn’t reap the fruit of the liar, and the liar doesn’t reap the fruit of the murderer. Hell will be filled with a harvest of each sinner’s making. Granted, those in hell may be able to share the fruit of their labor with each other, but I seriously doubt they will want to.

Likewise, those raised in Christ will reap their reward. However I will not be given your reward and you will not be given mine. In stark contrast with the fruit harvested by the unrepentant sinner, this fruit will be a joy to share.

Lastly, if you can readily believe our reward is forever, and will not be taken away, then you can readily believe our condemnation will be the same. Hell will not be a place you want to be but it will still be administered by a just and loving God. God’s rule will extend throughout all creation, so Satan will be imprisoned but will not “rule in hell rather than serve in heaven" as the poet Milton once conjectured. There will be a new heaven and a new earth (Revelation 21:1).

If you are correct shouldn't Gen2:16 have mentioned that mankind would receive proportional punishment according to the severity of their sins. Seems only fair to warn them doesn't it

God did not kill Adam and Eve and start all over again, did He? So mankind did receive proportional punishment and even that was greatly tempered by Grace.

Here this might help me understand where you are coming from............
Do you view Lazarus and the rich man as representitive of hell?

Lazarus was in hell until he was resurrected. Was he tortured while there? No, nor was the rich man in the same hell (Abraham’s bosom) as the resurrected Lazarus.

If so, do you believe that the righteous will be able to see and hear the lost in hell?

More than likely this is a conversation God allowed to take place. In other words, the rich man called out to Abraham and God allowed Abraham to hear the rich man and vice versa.

I have no idea whether we or anyone else will be able to engage in such conversations in the future (post –judgment) but I deem it unlikely and unnecessary since judgment will have already been conferred.

As someone once told me:

“I don’t know exactly what hell looks like I just know I don’t want to find out.”

Hell has been emptied of the righteous with Christ’s victory on the cross, so there is no need for anyone to go there. Besides, I think we're dealing with enough "hell" right here without having to worry about the real deal.

Will sin and hate fro GOD exist forever? Peace.

Sin and hate will not endure either on earth or in heaven. However scripture makes it clear Satan and his cohorts are thrown alive into the Lake of Fire. God does not kill Satan, his demons, or any of the unrepentant humans captives brought before Him as the Watchtower claims but He would be certainly capable or justified if He wanted to do so. Hell will be their final pit stop.
 
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