• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Contradictions in the Bible

nPeace

Veteran Member
Oh @rrobs I actually forgot. I still haven't gotten the answer to who killed all those people, in those scriptures I mentioned. I'd be glad to hear from you. :)
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
I certainly haven't noticed that. :)


Perhaps I am the one with the communication problem.
Where exactly did I say I think you suggested that God asked Satan to kill people?
Where exactly did I say I believe you think the scriptures are a myth?
Thank you for answering the question though. :)


Personally, I think it's the spirits on RF. They seem to make people edgy, and unable to see friendly posts for what they are, and yes, misinterpret them, and see tings that are not really there. Don't worry about it too much. The only way to prevent that, is too leave RF, or, just read the post as it is, rather than imagine what's not there.

I know you mean well, and I am not your enemy.
True, there are some things about scripture we will disagree on, but these are things we expect.
What I think they can do for us, is make us think, question, and confirm, or refute our understanding / beliefs.

So are we good now?
So tell me, what conclusion did I reach, and where exactly in my post do you find it? :)
First of all, of course we're good. I've not net a brother in Christ who isn't! Any way, I try my best to live peaceably with all people as per Romans 12:18. I experience various degrees of success with that, but I keep trying.

I like your advice on RF forum. I think if people read the Bible with the same scrutiny they read these posts, there would be more Christians. They certainly appear to pick posts apart word by word. I think they mistake 2 Timothy 2:15 to apply to forums!

So here is what you said that I guess I misunderstood,

"Surely you don't think Jehovah asked Satan to kill these persons in these instances... or is that your view?"
At first read I thought you were implying that I believed God partnered with Satan in killing people. Following your admonition to just read what's written, I now see you were simply asking a question.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
First of all, of course we're good. I've not net a brother in Christ who isn't! Any way, I try my best to live peaceably with all people as per Romans 12:18. I experience various degrees of success with that, but I keep trying.

I like your advice on RF forum. I think if people read the Bible with the same scrutiny they read these posts, there would be more Christians. They certainly appear to pick posts apart word by word. I think they mistake 2 Timothy 2:15 to apply to forums!

So here is what you said that I guess I misunderstood,

"Surely you don't think Jehovah asked Satan to kill these persons in these instances... or is that your view?"
At first read I thought you were implying that I believed God partnered with Satan in killing people. Following your admonition to just read what's written, I now see you were simply asking a question.
Ding. You just won 1,000,000 dollars. :smiley:
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
Oh @rrobs I actually forgot. I still haven't gotten the answer to who killed all those people, in those scriptures I mentioned. I'd be glad to hear from you. :)
I'm not sure which of my post you have read, but I did quote a verse in Hebrews that should answer your question.

Heb 2:14:

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Rom 5:12:

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Death came by sin. Adam screwed things for everybody. Of course the heroic action by one man, Jesus Christ, fixed the problem for anybody who cares to confess him as Lord and believe God raised him from the dead (Rom 10:9).

God warned Adam and Eve to not disobey His one and only command. He told them they would die if they did. That certainly doesn't mean He was responsible for their death any more than it would be the parent's fault if their child suffered a charred hand after having put their hand in the fire when their parents told them not to do that. Clearly death was not part of God's original plan for humankind. But neither was it part of His plan to make robots or puppets. He gave them free will. It's not His fault they exercised it in a way that didn't conform to His will.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Well, since the scriptures declare God to be a Jealous God, I would have to say He is a jealous God. What did I say that made you think otherwise?
I'm just talking. I was warning you that if you elevate the scriptures to equal what God says then you must beware of suffering God's jealousy, imo. You know that it is written, "no man can see God and live". Correct? Is not hearing God so much more than seeing God? As people are better known by what they say than by what they appear to be. To actually hear from God must be a terrible thing. Do you agree?
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Yes. It is an example. That's why I put the font in bold.
The word simply means beat out, or spread out. It does not describe a process of beating out anything in particular - whether bowl, or ball.


Do you have that information? Do you mind sharing it?

As I said, basically, persons that hold this view ["experts"], rely on ideas, and interpretations formulated after the 11th century C.E., and into our modern time, telling us what the Hebrews before the 11th century B.C.E. believed.
And what documents do they have to support their view? What documents state what they claim?
None.

Do you know of any documents? I'd be glad to see them.
According to what I read, it is based on interpreting the Hebrew scriptures, and speculating on what they think about them.
See Cosmogony

The Jewish Encyclopedia
The board naturally faced many difficult editorial questions and disagreements. Singer wanted specific entries for every Jewish community in the world, with detailed information about, for example, the name and dates of the first Jewish settler in Prague. Conflict also arose over what types of Bible interpretation should be included, with some editors fearing that Morris Jastrow's involvement in "higher criticism" would lead to unfavorable treatment of scripture.


Well I certainly have no problem you choosing to accept that opinion.
I also appreciate the other guys having the right to their opinion.
There are various ideas floating around. Some assume that the "experts" must be right.
This is not how many people choose to see life. The "expert" is not always right, as historical facts have repeatedly shown.


They are alternatives to spread out... certainly.
Alternative
noun
  1. one of two or more available possibilities.
adjective
  1. (of one or more things) available as another possibility.
The Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament shows that the word רָקִ֖יעַ (raqia; H7549) derives from the Hebrew word רָקִיעַ, to spread out, stamp out or down (as with a foot) or hammer out. This itself derives from the Akkadian word for metal bowl or kettle.

The Lexicon defines raqiya as "the beaten metal plate, or bow; firmament, the firm vault of heaven. Raqiya was understood as the gigantic heavenly dome..."

Certainly Egyptian imagery in the Hymn to Ra (from which the Genesis creation myths were partly taken) shows the body of Nut (sky) arching over the body of Geb (the earth) as a bowl shape. "Parallels to a hymn to Ra appear in the stories of the heavens and the earth in the book of Genesis (Pp. 6-7, Old Testament Parallels: Laws and Stories from the Ancient Near East, 2nd ed., Matthews/Benjamin)

"In the conception of the firmament as a solid substance (cf. Job 26:11) there is a distinct reminiscence of the Babylonian myth, according wo which the sun-god Marduk split the slain chaos monster in two and used one half of the carcass as a firmament, the other half as the earth. Above it was the heavenly sea referred to in Psalms 29:10 and 148:4, and in Revelation 4:6, etc." (The Interpreter's Bible: Vol. 1, Pg. 472)

"In its fundamental elements this description of the creation of the firmament and the waters above it, of the earth and the waters beneath it, and of the seas upon the earth, is like the creation epic that came from Babylon. The physical picture [see pg. 39 of Old Testament Parallels] is the same: a flat earth with mountains round its rim, on which the dome of the firmament rested as on pillars; in the firmament, windows through which the waters above could come down in rain..." (The Interpreter's Bible, Vol. 1, Pg. 472)

"The Israelites shared much of the world view of ancient Mesopotamia. Much of the material contained in the primeval epics in Genesis is borrowed from other ancient Near Eastern cultures. This is what makes the study of nonbiblical epics so valuable. By making comparisons and by seeing the general religious and literary environment of the ancient Near East, it is possible to understand better how the Israelites perceived their world."
(The Old Testament: Text and Context, Matthews/Moyer, pg. 44)

"The Genesis accounts of the creation utilize some of the this Mesopotamian material as well as other epics composed in ancient Egypt." (The Old Testament, pg. 47)

From these passages, it is shown that there was a continuity in how these ancient, Near Eastern people viewed creation. It is shown how comparisons are drawn between cultures. I think you're torturing definitions and overanalyzing what may or may not have been the case, interjecting biased and unfounded skepticism of the expert's scholastic findings. When the bible uses the word raqiya for sky, all indicators point to the fact that they pictured a rigid dome, just like their earlier neighbors.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
I'm just talking. I was warning you that if you elevate the scriptures to equal what God says then you must beware of suffering God's jealousy, imo. You know that it is written, "no man can see God and live". Correct? Is not hearing God so much more than seeing God? As people are better known by what they say than by what they appear to be. To actually hear from God must be a terrible thing. Do you agree?
Well, God does magnify His word above all else.

Ps 138:2

I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
Yes, God did say that no man can see him and live. But He said that to Israel before Jesus' death and resurrections. They could not look upon Him without suffering severe consequences. But wouldn't you agree that Jesus' death and resurrection changed a few things? For example:

2 Cor 3:18:

But we all, with open face beholding as in a glassthe glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
This is written to Christians in this age of grace. Not only can we behold the glory of the Lord, but we are actually changed into that image. I would think that ought to put a spring in the step of any Christian who understood it. But sadly, many wish to continue in the ministration of death, i.e. the OT. Check out 2 Corinthians chapter 3.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
He is really quite the character.

Lookit your flood, or passover. What a psycho.
Look up, "Hebrew idiom of permission." Remember the book wasn't written last year in New Your or LA. We need to understand the culture of the people to whom it was originally written.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
I don't understand why you guys keep saying no evidence.
Right now I am so hungry. Surely I have evidence of that... but do you?
I'm afraid the evidence you are looking for may well be eluding you... and there is a reason, I'm sure, but that reason is not, that the evidence is not there.
So, what evidence other than the bible do you have for the Jesus saga?

.

.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
I'm not sure which of my post you have read, but I did quote a verse in Hebrews that should answer your question.

Heb 2:14:

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Rom 5:12:

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Death came by sin. Adam screwed things for everybody. Of course the heroic action by one man, Jesus Christ, fixed the problem for anybody who cares to confess him as Lord and believe God raised him from the dead (Rom 10:9).

God warned Adam and Eve to not disobey His one and only command. He told them they would die if they did. That certainly doesn't mean He was responsible for their death any more than it would be the parent's fault if their child suffered a charred hand after having put their hand in the fire when their parents told them not to do that. Clearly death was not part of God's original plan for humankind. But neither was it part of His plan to make robots or puppets. He gave them free will. It's not His fault they exercised it in a way that didn't conform to His will.
I did read your post, and understand your view.
What I am really asking, is if God did not ask Satan to kill the Egyptians in the red sea, to kill all the firstborn in Egypt, to kill the people in the flood, including the giants, born to angels, to kill those who looked at the ark of the covenant, or touched it, and were instantly struck dead, etc. who killed them? How did they die, in other words?

When Jesus said, 'Fear the one that can destroy both body and soul', who was he referring to, in your view?

When God asked an angel - his angel - to kill, who was doing the killing.
God also commanded people be stoned to death.

I think it is good when people appreciate the Bible. To me that is a good thing. However, I think it is more important to be able to explain to others, in a clear and simple manner, why they too can believe it.
It certainly will reaffirm your conviction.
For me, if I am reading the Bible, and I come across these verses, and someone says to me, "God did not kill them, because God is love. Satan is the one who kills, and we die through Adam's sin', I would certainly want to understand how that is true.

That's where you come in. :)
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
How is my assuming the Bible is the word of God any different than assuming, "teaching from the church and from family and friends, reason, tradition, aesthetics and personal spiritual experience." is the word of God?

Ps 12:6,

The words of the LORD [are] pure words: [as] silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Seems as though God is very concerned about every word. If I see a contradiction in the scriptures it is very important I find out where the misunderstanding lies. I understand not everybody has the same respect for the integrity of God's word. As a former RC (12 years of religion classes, 5 days a week), I am fully aware of their somewhat lackadaisical attitude towards the Bible.
It isn't different. That is my point.

You assume it, because it is what you have been taught, or for some other reason external to scripture. But there are no grounds on which you can argue your stance of taking every word of the bible as "the truth" is better justified than an alternative stance that looks only for messages in it and does not try to attach significance to every word.

Furthermore, by insisting on attaching significance to every word, you create all these problems for yourself, of contradictions that you have to tortuously explain away.

So it seems far more reasonable to adopt the looser approach.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
This is so funny.

God gives 'apparent contradictions' to those who are looking for contradictions.

They are not looking for God. They are looking for any reason not to follow God. And so God gives it to them.

God gives them the lie. (2 Thess. 2:11). "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie."

Would God do that? You bet He would.

Good-Ole-Rebel
Yes, that must be it... God is such a trickster!
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Look up, "Hebrew idiom of permission." Remember the book wasn't written last year in New Your or LA. We need to understand the culture of the people to whom it was originally written.

Like I dont know it was not written on the upper
east side. Sheesh.

"the people to whom it was written"

Sure. Written for and by the people of the time.

No surprise there.

None of that addresses that a "god" who would
do things like the flood, the whole thing he did
to egypt, and divers other atrocities is a psycho monster.

Not that any of it actually happened of course.

But the crude and cruel people of the day naturally
invented a god like them only worse.
 
Top