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Do these verses imply that when man dies their spirit goes somewhere?

Frank Goad

Well-Known Member
What do you make of 2 Peter 1:13-15 and Psalms 90:10-12 and John 14:2? I noticed the person in 2 Peter 1:13-15 calls his death a departure.Like he is going somewhere.Also in Psalms 90:10-12 it says WE fly away and not OUR souls fly away.Which makes the death personal and not impersonal.And last In John 14:2 jesus said he would come back for us.Is that right when we die?:confused: My dad brought these up.

I put this post on here because I want to hear from both sides of the argument to get a better view of who I think makes more sense.

I first had this on the question and answer forum.But I put it up only for jw.So now that it is on the debate forum.I think I will get a better picture of immortal soul believer vs non immortal soul believer.:)
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
.............................I think I will get a better picture of immortal soul believer vs non immortal soul believer.:)

First of all, I'd like to address the part about Jesus coming back for us.
True, we are Not told to be 'taken up' to Jesus, nor pray to be 'taken away' to Jesus, but for Jesus to come! - Rev. 22:20
The reason we are to pray the invitation for 'Jesus to come' is so there will be 'healing' on Earth - Revelation 22:2
Jesus to come and restore paradisical conditions to Earth as Eden was a sample for us.
Jesus to come and bring an end to 'enemy death' as mentioned at 1 Corinthians 15:24-26.
There is No death in Heaven, No graves but right here on Earth is where the death problem exists for now - Acts 24:15.

If we had immortal souls then we would Not need a resurrection. What is alive does Not need a resurrection.
Adam was created to become a ' living soul ' or person.
At his death fallen Adam became a ' dead soul ' or a dead person returning to the ground - Genesis 3:19
Adam had No pre-human existence, so Adam went from non-life-to-life and returned back to none life.
A person can Not 'return' to a place he never was before.
Thus, there was No post-mortem penalty for Adam, No double jeopardy for Adam - just bite the dust.
Unlike Adam we are offered a resurrection back to live life again.
Some called to Heaven, the majority of mankind to have a future healthy physical resurrection - Acts 24:15.
Thus, we are praying for 'Jesus to come' so the dead will come back or return to healthy physical life again.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
What do you make of 2 Peter 1:13-15 and Psalms 90:10-12 and John 14:2? I noticed the person in 2 Peter 1:13-15 calls his death a departure.Like he is going somewhere.Also in Psalms 90:10-12 it says WE fly away and not OUR souls fly away.Which makes the death personal and not impersonal.And last In John 14:2 jesus said he would come back for us.Is that right when we die?:confused: My dad brought these up.

I put this post on here because I want to hear from both sides of the argument to get a better view of who I think makes more sense.

I first had this on the question and answer forum.But I put it up only for jw.So now that it is on the debate forum.I think I will get a better picture of immortal soul believer vs non immortal soul believer.:)
According to my belief, it is the spirit which gives the physical body life. In Genesis 2:7, we read that God "breathed into his[i.e. Adam's] nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." To me, that means that prior to the breath of life entering into Adam's body, his body had no life. The spirit evidently existed prior to being breathed into Adam, as God was able to do something with it. When Jesus died, Luke 23:46 states that He said, "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit." In other words, at the time of death, the spirit leaves the physical body. It doesn't just cease to exist, but returns to God. Ecclesiastes 12:7 puts it this way: "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."

What conceivable purpose would God have for a dead spirit? None that I can think of. It is clearly the body that dies. The spirit resides in God's care until such time that it re-enters the body at the resurrection, giving the body new, everlasting life.
 

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
What do you make of 2 Peter 1:13-15 and Psalms 90:10-12 and John 14:2? I noticed the person in 2 Peter 1:13-15 calls his death a departure.Like he is going somewhere.Also in Psalms 90:10-12 it says WE fly away and not OUR souls fly away.Which makes the death personal and not impersonal.And last In John 14:2 jesus said he would come back for us.Is that right when we die?:confused: My dad brought these up.

I put this post on here because I want to hear from both sides of the argument to get a better view of who I think makes more sense.

I first had this on the question and answer forum.But I put it up only for jw.So now that it is on the debate forum.I think I will get a better picture of immortal soul believer vs non immortal soul believer.:)

I've done my best to please God. Some who purport to have the truth will one day find a millstone around their necks. I'm good not knowing.
 

David1967

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
According to my belief, it is the spirit which gives the physical body life. In Genesis 2:7, we read that God "breathed into his[i.e. Adam's] nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." To me, that means that prior to the breath of life entering into Adam's body, his body had no life. The spirit evidently existed prior to being breathed into Adam, as God was able to do something with it. When Jesus died, Luke 23:46 states that He said, "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit." In other words, at the time of death, the spirit leaves the physical body. It doesn't just cease to exist, but returns to God. Ecclesiastes 12:7 puts it this way: "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."

What conceivable purpose would God have for a dead spirit? None that I can think of. It is clearly the body that dies. The spirit resides in God's care until such time that it re-enters the body at the resurrection, giving the body new, everlasting life.

I like that @Katzpur . :)
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
What do you make of 2 Peter 1:13-15 and Psalms 90:10-12 and John 14:2? I noticed the person in 2 Peter 1:13-15 calls his death a departure.Like he is going somewhere.Also in Psalms 90:10-12 it says WE fly away and not OUR souls fly away.Which makes the death personal and not impersonal.And last In John 14:2 jesus said he would come back for us.Is that right when we die?:confused: My dad brought these up.

I put this post on here because I want to hear from both sides of the argument to get a better view of who I think makes more sense.

I first had this on the question and answer forum.But I put it up only for jw.So now that it is on the debate forum.I think I will get a better picture of immortal soul believer vs non immortal soul believer.:)
Yes, usually New Jersey. After the Catholics got rid of limbo they needed somewhere for people to go that was neither heaven nor hell.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
What do you make of 2 Peter 1:13-15 and Psalms 90:10-12 and John 14:2? I noticed the person in 2 Peter 1:13-15 calls his death a departure.Like he is going somewhere.Also in Psalms 90:10-12 it says WE fly away and not OUR souls fly away.Which makes the death personal and not impersonal.And last In John 14:2 jesus said he would come back for us.Is that right when we die?:confused: My dad brought these up.

I put this post on here because I want to hear from both sides of the argument to get a better view of who I think makes more sense.

I first had this on the question and answer forum.But I put it up only for jw.So now that it is on the debate forum.I think I will get a better picture of immortal soul believer vs non immortal soul believer.:)

Paul spoke of it being better to depart and be with Christ.
That sounds like the spirit going to a destination to me.

Phil 1:23
I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far;
 

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
Paul spoke of it being better to depart and be with Christ.
That sounds like the spirit going to a destination to me.

Phil 1:23
I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far;

I'd punch out immediately, but it is clear that the time is not. So, we try very hard to be pleasing to God, not allowing others to lead us astray.
 

Goodman John

Active Member
According to my belief, it is the spirit which gives the physical body life. In Genesis 2:7, we read that God "breathed into his[i.e. Adam's] nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." To me, that means that prior to the breath of life entering into Adam's body, his body had no life. The spirit evidently existed prior to being breathed into Adam, as God was able to do something with it. When Jesus died, Luke 23:46 states that He said, "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit." In other words, at the time of death, the spirit leaves the physical body. It doesn't just cease to exist, but returns to God. Ecclesiastes 12:7 puts it this way: "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."

What conceivable purpose would God have for a dead spirit? None that I can think of. It is clearly the body that dies. The spirit resides in God's care until such time that it re-enters the body at the resurrection, giving the body new, everlasting life.

My take on it is that Man was evolved to be a servant of his Creator (and it's not God, but Satan- but that's a different story), but in order to make Man 'work' a divine spirit was needed; as Satan had stolen a supply of spirits following a war with God (in which he was defeated), he used these. The spirits are kept in a holding place and as a new baby is conceived a spirit is placed within it; it combines with our human essence to form our 'soul'- thus we are, at once, both human and divine. (This agrees with the 'breath of life' but in a different direction.)

As for our death, if we have been diligent and realized our spiritual nature and taken steps to keep ourselves pure and strengthen our souls through good works and faith, our soul will have a chance to break free of the physical realm and return to the spiritual realm- and thus be closer to God. If we reject our spiritual side, or are not up to snuff and our soul is too weak, upon our death our spirit leaves the body and returns to the 'holding place' (or, for you Indiana Jones fans, the 'Well of Souls'- what the Jewish Kabbalists would call 'the Guf') to await random placement in a newly-conceived baby. If a spirit finds no release at the end of that person's life, it has to endure more painful time in the world (the physical realm), transmigrating from dead body to new body until a person 'gets it' during their lifetime. (In my opinion, when a spirit is released only the last soul goes with it to 'heaven', to be made spirit as well- a new angel, if you will. So for this reason- among others- it's in our best interest Get It Right during our lifetime. If we don't, our soul separates and we- our 'human essence'- simply ceases to exist while the spirit moves on.)

In my view, there is no physical resurrection at all- our bodies are nothing more than shells for our spirit and when we die it's no more troubling than taking off a dirty shirt.
 

susanblange

Active Member
Mankind is made of soul and spirit. The soul/body is mortal and we will all die...permanently. The spirit is made of Energy, which is the essence of God and it can be immortal. It is made of light (the purest form of Energy), heat (the lowest form of Energy) and it has weight. When the soul/body dies, it loses weight and heat. E=mc2. That Energy has to go somewhere. Energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only change form. The spirit/Energy leaves the soul/body and it usually goes to Heaven or Hell. Death can also be instant. If it goes to Hell, it will eventually be extinguished. The death of the spirit is also permanent. If the spirit goes to Heaven, it will live forever.
 

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
AND ANYONE WHO SAY THE HUMAN SPIRIT DOES NOT EXIST SHOULD EXPLAIN WHAT JESUS TOLD US ABOUT lAZARUS AND THE rICH MAN.
Here we have Jesus himself telling us that when humans die, they go to a place called gehenna where the condemned and saved spirits are kept for the day of ressurection.
Anyone that say the body of man in his earthly state will be ressurected is wrong, but that body will be changed into an immortal glorious light covered one such as Jesus had during his assension.
Therefore, man has a Body, which was corrupted by sin and changed from light covered immortal to naked and ageing to die.
man also has a spirit that will go to gehenna to be ressurected into heaven or hell.
Man has a Mind, or word, that lives in this body, or in the spirit.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
What do you make of 2 Peter 1:13-15 and Psalms 90:10-12 and John 14:2? I noticed the person in 2 Peter 1:13-15 calls his death a departure.Like he is going somewhere.Also in Psalms 90:10-12 it says WE fly away and not OUR souls fly away.Which makes the death personal and not impersonal.And last In John 14:2 jesus said he would come back for us.Is that right when we die?:confused: My dad brought these up.

I put this post on here because I want to hear from both sides of the argument to get a better view of who I think makes more sense.

I first had this on the question and answer forum.But I put it up only for jw.So now that it is on the debate forum.I think I will get a better picture of immortal soul believer vs non immortal soul believer.:)
The Judaic religion at the time of the Psalms certainly didn't a very solid idea of an afterlife. They had "sheol" -- the place of shadows, where the shades of those who died sort of floated around. But the prevailing thought was that dead is dead.

The Anointed-believers of the NT certainly had a more developed sense of an afterlife. Matthew 10:28 is one passage that speaks of an immortal soul. Luke 12:20 and Revelation 20:4 are other such passages.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
What do you make of 2 Peter 1:13-15 and Psalms 90:10-12 and John 14:2? I noticed the person in 2 Peter 1:13-15 calls his death a departure.Like he is going somewhere.Also in Psalms 90:10-12 it says WE fly away and not OUR souls fly away.Which makes the death personal and not impersonal.And last In John 14:2 jesus said he would come back for us.Is that right when we die?:confused: My dad brought these up.

I put this post on here because I want to hear from both sides of the argument to get a better view of who I think makes more sense.

I first had this on the question and answer forum.But I put it up only for jw.So now that it is on the debate forum.I think I will get a better picture of immortal soul believer vs non immortal soul believer.:)

I believe that "departed" might simply mean gone so it isn't solid enough to base doctrine.

I believe this is in reference to the New Jerusalem which is a physical place for physical people.

I believe this helps the cause of an afterlife although I do not believe people do soul sleep much now.
1Cor 15:20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

I believe this intimates afterlife:
John 12:26 If anyone serves me, he must follow me; and where I am, there will my servant be also. If anyone serves me, the Father will honor him.

 

Muffled

Jesus in me
According to my belief, it is the spirit which gives the physical body life. In Genesis 2:7, we read that God "breathed into his[i.e. Adam's] nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." To me, that means that prior to the breath of life entering into Adam's body, his body had no life. The spirit evidently existed prior to being breathed into Adam, as God was able to do something with it. When Jesus died, Luke 23:46 states that He said, "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit." In other words, at the time of death, the spirit leaves the physical body. It doesn't just cease to exist, but returns to God. Ecclesiastes 12:7 puts it this way: "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."

What conceivable purpose would God have for a dead spirit? None that I can think of. It is clearly the body that dies. The spirit resides in God's care until such time that it re-enters the body at the resurrection, giving the body new, everlasting life.

I believe Adam was a special case because it was a cloning. Just creating the physical body does not put life into it. I believe some people have their spirits leave the body and then return. That implies that the body does not die simply because the spirit leaves. It did in Jesus's case because the body was being crucified and it needed the Spirit to keep from dying.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Yes, usually New Jersey. After the Catholics got rid of limbo they needed somewhere for people to go that was neither heaven nor hell.

I believe if it were Hell it should have been Alabama according to my wife's thinking but then she did like the Waffle House. I suppose limbo is what you get if you are too troubled to sleep and God won't give you a new life. Suicides have that problem. God feels that a person who does not respect his life or God's authority over life then he doesn't need another life. Usually suicides are too guilt ridden to go to Heaven.
 

Goodman John

Active Member
I believe if it were Hell it should have been Alabama according to my wife's thinking but then she did like the Waffle House. I suppose limbo is what you get if you are too troubled to sleep and God won't give you a new life. Suicides have that problem. God feels that a person who does not respect his life or God's authority over life then he doesn't need another life. Usually suicides are too guilt ridden to go to Heaven.

The Waffle House in Gulf Shores is decent enough, but you want to stay away from the one on 1st Ave in the East Lake area of Birmingham- food's good but way too many bullets flying around to really enjoy it.

As for suicide, in my belief a suicide out of despair isn't exactly cool- the result, though, is that you've deprived your soul of its chance of getting back to God this time around. If a Cathar is ready, and has purified themselves through living the vows of the Consolamentum, he or she may- especially in the event of old age or terminal illness/injury- undertake the Endura which is a self-imposed fast and/or exposure until one expires. In this way, suicide is not an impediment to the soul's redemption. (On the same note, being martyred for the faith- choosing death over recanting- is a form of suicide, but is acceptable as well and is considered to be 'A Good End'.)
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
The Waffle House in Gulf Shores is decent enough, but you want to stay away from the one on 1st Ave in the East Lake area of Birmingham- food's good but way too many bullets flying around to really enjoy it.

As for suicide, in my belief a suicide out of despair isn't exactly cool- the result, though, is that you've deprived your soul of its chance of getting back to God this time around. If a Cathar is ready, and has purified themselves through living the vows of the Consolamentum, he or she may- especially in the event of old age or terminal illness/injury- undertake the Endura which is a self-imposed fast and/or exposure until one expires. In this way, suicide is not an impediment to the soul's redemption. (On the same note, being martyred for the faith- choosing death over recanting- is a form of suicide, but is acceptable as well and is considered to be 'A Good End'.)

I don't believe this is acceptable unless God gives permission. Putting an ecclesiastical blessing on it isn't going to placate God.
 
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