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Evidence for a god and against a god

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
I missed the point?

Yes - and you've done it again. I pointed out two points and you ignored both and dealt with something I didn't even mention.

Are you saying we don't have free will, that we are controlled by God?

I'm saying that free will, in any way that would make sense with an omnipotent omniscient creator, is a logically incoherent concept. Free will in the way most people think of it is logically incoherent and contradictory anyway - only compatibilism makes sense of it, but not to a god.

Not sure of your point.

It's not all that hard. I said the bible is myth, you said that it said to avoid myths and to believe it, so it can't be a myth and I just pointed out that a myth need not be accurate - so when it says to avoid myths and believe it, that might be part of the myth.

Actually God makes it clear that some will believe and others won't. My belief and your dis-belief proves that at least part of the Bible is true. What else might be true? It would be a stretch indeed to think that the Bible is right on that point and that point alone, that the rest has no foundation.

I literally laughed out loud at than. Are you serious?
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
Yes - and you've done it again. I pointed out two points and you ignored both and dealt with something I didn't even mention.
What is it about what I wrote in Post #60 that doesn't address your points square on? Here is what I understand your points to be:

1) This god character punished them and (significantly and unjustly) their descendants for eating some fruit.
2) so how were they supposed to know it was evil to disobey god before they knew good from evil?​

To point #1 I replied that Adams and Eve's punishment was no more God's fault than it would be your fault if your child charred their hand for ignoring your warning.

To point #2 I said God was as direct as direct can be in His warning to Adam and Eve. He said, "Don't do it or you will die. If you just do that one teeny little thing you will life a life of pure enjoyment" They were very aware that God's cared enough to tell them not to stick their hand in the fire.

So paraphrase what I just said and tell me what you see. I'd be really curious to see how it could not be read as a direct answer to your points. Maybe I have trouble expressing myself or maybe my summary of your points 1 & 2 above are incorrect. I don't know. Help me understand where I'm missing it.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
To point #1 I replied that Adams and Eve's punishment was no more God's fault than it would be your fault if your child charred their hand for ignoring your warning.

That's totally absurd. Is this god of yours not omnipotent? Is its hand being forced by something greater than itself. It is totally unjust to punish children for the crimes of their parents - let alone an entire world (as some would have us believe).

To point #2 I said God was as direct as direct can be in His warning to Adam and Eve. He said, "Don't do it or you will die. If you just do that one teeny little thing you will life a life of pure enjoyment" They were very aware that God's cared enough to tell them not to stick their hand in the fire.

How many kids think it's fun to disobey before they really understand that it's wrong? Adam and Eve are supposed to have been innocent and not know good from evil, so how can they be blamed, when they were given conflicting information (from god and their friendly neighbourhood talking reptile, that, incidentally, god had created and put there)?
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
That's totally absurd. Is this god of yours not omnipotent? Is its hand being forced by something greater than itself. It is totally unjust to punish children for the crimes of their parents - let alone an entire world (as some would have us believe).
As a matter of fact, the scriptures don't declare God to be omnipotent or in control. That would be tradition. Did you read where I said God relinquished dominion over this world to Adam and Eve? Blame them for the problems. They are the ones who screwed things up for everybody else. God's original plan was for people to live in paradise. Even after man used his free will to screw things up, God went to work on plan "B" which begins at Genesis 3:15. The rest of the story is all about that, and it's as coherent and logical as coherence and logic ever gets. If you don't see that it's because you choose not to see it. I guess in your world you would force everybody to conform to what you think would be right. Sorry, God's not like that.

How many kids think it's fun to disobey before they really understand that it's wrong?
As I said before, you could tie them to the bed so they won't ever disobey. I'm not sure how loving that would be, but that's what people seem to want from God.
Adam and Eve are supposed to have been innocent and not know good from evil, so how can they be blamed, when they were given conflicting information (from god and their friendly neighbourhood talking reptile, that, incidentally, god had created and put there)?
God didn't give them conflicting information. He was as plain as could be. "if you eat you will die." Just because they chose to believe some conflicting information from someone else doesn't indict God. I guess it's hard for people to accept responsibility for their own actions. They always want to blame someone else, then and now.

Like man, God gave all the angels free will. Some chose to rebel. Surely you must see that free will is love.

Ever heard the phrase, "He's a real snake in the grass?" Is the guy an actual snake? Of course not. It's what we call a figure of speech, in particular, a metaphor. We all know what that means in normal speech, but when it comes to the Bible we loose all sense of logic and go off the deep edge. The Bible uses figures of speech the same way we do. Figures of speech are precise grammatical tools used to emphasize something. Figures of speech is a study in itself.

Are you sure you read the Bible? It doesn't seem like you did, but If you did, it doesn't appear that you took the time to read it carefully. You seem to have some pretty basic concepts mixed up in your mind. I'm thinking that most of your ideas are from tradition and not from the scriptures themselves. Anyway, tradition seems to form the core of all your arguments. You know, there is nothing wrong with admitting you don't know something. Just admit you don't and forget it, or take to time to learn about it.
 
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ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Did you read where I said God relinquished dominion over this world to Adam and Eve? Blame them for the problems.

This just gets sillier and sillier. So this all knowing, all wise god gave the future fate of all their descendants, and the world, to a couple who he didn't even bother to make aware of the difference between good and evil. In fact making acquiring such knowledge the sin that would land everything else in ****? Is your god a few sandwiches short of a picnic?

As I said before, you could tie them to the bed so they won't ever disobey. I'm not sure how loving that would be, but that's what people seem to want from God.

The point is that you don't actually condemn innocent kids to death, or put them in circumstances in which disobedience will cause them to die (let alone them and everybody else), when they don't yet appreciate the difference between good and bad behaviour.

Any half-competent human parent would have done better than your god. If the myth is taken seriously, your god did the equivalent of putting a toddler next to a big, pretty button that would destroy humanity, told them not to press it, and went away. Except it's worse than that - it left a talking animal with them to tell them to press it!

I guess it's hard for people to accept responsibility for their own actions. They always want to blame someone else, then and now.

Except that god punished everybody else for Adam and Eve's actions. That is unjust. Even if god put the decision in the hands of Adam and Eve - that is still unjust. God (in this silly myth) made the rules.

Are you sure you read the Bible? It doesn't seem like you did, but If you did, it doesn't appear that you took the time to read it carefully.

I did - and I read it to find out what it said. The Adam and Eve story is particularly silly, just as it stands. If you add tradition in (especially the Christian stuff about Jesus dying to put things right), it gets even worse and even more bizarre.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
This just gets sillier and sillier. So this all knowing, all wise god gave the future fate of all their descendants, and the world, to a couple who he didn't even bother to make aware of the difference between good and evil. In fact making acquiring such knowledge the sin that would land everything else in ****? Is your god a few sandwiches short of a picnic?

The point is that you don't actually condemn innocent kids to death, or put them in circumstances in which disobedience will cause them to die (let alone them and everybody else), when they don't yet appreciate the difference between good and bad behaviour.

Any half-competent human parent would have done better than your god. If the myth is taken seriously, your god did the equivalent of putting a toddler next to a big, pretty button that would destroy humanity, told them not to press it, and went away. Except it's worse than that - it left a talking animal with them to tell them to press it!

Except that god punished everybody else for Adam and Eve's actions. That is unjust. Even if god put the decision in the hands of Adam and Eve - that is still unjust. God (in this silly myth) made the rules.

I did - and I read it to find out what it said. The Adam and Eve story is particularly silly, just as it stands. If you add tradition in (especially the Christian stuff about Jesus dying to put things right), it gets even worse and even more bizarre.
it is clear you really don't know the difference between tradition and what the Bible actually says. You say God condemned innocent kids to death. That is tradition. You say the death of Jesus dying tradition. That is what the Bible actually says. You're all mixed up and you are clearly not interested in learning anything right now. Perhaps later. Don't get me wrong, I'm not condemning you or belittling you in any way. I would guess you are in all probability a fine person. Just stating the facts.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Although not strictly scientific, I think the Bible offers compelling literary evidence of the existence of God.

What are the chances that 40 different authors over a period of 1,250 years could write a story with an easily followed plot that made sense? I would tend to think not much. But, not only would they have to follow one single plot, they would also have to include the four other main elements of any good story (setting, character, conflict, and theme), even further lessening the odds of producing a meaningful story by so many different people over a time span of so many years.

Yet, that is exactly what God has accomplished in His story as related in the scriptures. Although some 40 different people did the writing over a period of 1,250 years, an honest examination will show that one single individual did the actual authoring, and he did it quite apart from such a long time period. God, the one author, knew exactly what to say, and He knew it all at once.
- the Bible isn't that consistent.
- it would have been even more inconsistent if not for the work of human editors who decided which books to include in or exclude from the canon based on considerations like consistency between books.

A thought experiment for you:

- find an online repository of Star Trek fan fiction.
- grab 200 stories at random.
- pick the 50 stories that most closely agrre with each other and discard the rest.

Would you feel justified in saying:

- that these 50 stories were all written by the same person?
- that Gene Roddenberry would approve of these stories?

Your conclusion is no more compelling than that one, IMO.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
People "do" believe in gods.
People believe all sorts of wacky things for reasons that have nothings to do with the truth of those things.

IMO only a idiot asks for scientific evidence for a god
If belief in a god is rational, then it makes perfect sense to ask for scientific evidence for that god.

"Science" is just our word for systematic, thorough investigation. If something can be investigated at all, then it can be investigated in a systematic and thorough way.

OTOH, if it can't be investigated scientifically, then this means it can't be investigated at all, and that there can be no good reason to accept it as true.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
You say God condemned innocent kids to death.

I didn't actually, I was drawing a comparison between innocent kids and Adam and Eve - who were innocent in the sense of not being given any knowledge of good and evil. Of course, other parts of the bible reveal a genocidal god, that's perfectly happy with killing innocent children (1 Samuel 15:3, for example).

You say the death of Jesus dying tradition.

I specifically said that was tradition.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
If it was rational to believe in gods, asking for scientific evidence wouldn't be pointless.
I trust you know that about 1/2 of scientific "knowledge" has been shown to be wrong. When it comes to proving God then, science would have at best a 50-50 chance of getting it right.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
- the Bible isn't that consistent.
- it would have been even more inconsistent if not for the work of human editors who decided which books to include in or exclude from the canon based on considerations like consistency between books.
Hence the need for any serious Bible student to learn how to use a few different Hebrew and Greek language tools. I think maybe you also misunderstand exactly how we got the scriptures, how God inspired all those men to write the message.

A thought experiment for you:

- find an online repository of Star Trek fan fiction.
- grab 200 stories at random.
- pick the 50 stories that most closely agrre with each other and discard the rest.

Would you feel justified in saying:

- that these 50 stories were all written by the same person?
- that Gene Roddenberry would approve of these stories?

Your conclusion is no more compelling than that one, IMO.
While your thought experiment is interesting and I have watched all the Star Trek series, I don't think you understood my conclusion.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
it is clear you really don't know the difference between tradition and what the Bible actually says. You say God condemned innocent kids to death. That is tradition. You say the death of Jesus dying tradition. That is what the Bible actually says. You're all mixed up and you are clearly not interested in learning anything right now. Perhaps later. Don't get me wrong, I'm not condemning you or belittling you in any way. I would guess you are in all probability a fine person. Just stating the facts.

Everyone thinks the bible "actually says" what they say
it does.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
Everyone thinks the bible "actually says" what they say
it does.
OK. Let me interpret your reply. I think you are saying that nobody actually knows what the Bible says. I think that means that you are saying it is a most holy book and should be believed by everybody as you yourself believe everything it says to be true.

See how easily words can be twisted? Why should I just take you for what say?
 

Audie

Veteran Member
I trust you know that about 1/2 of scientific "knowledge" has been shown to be wrong. When it comes to proving God then, science would have at best a 50-50 chance of getting it right.

Science deals with data, first off. Data does not
get shown to be wrong.

Prease tell us an example of scientific "knowledge"
that was shown to be wrong.

As for "proving" god, or anything else, science
has zero chance.

I dont suppose you know why, though.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
OK. Let me interpret your reply. I think you are saying that nobody actually knows what the Bible says. I think that means that you are saying it is a most holy book and should be believed by everybody as you yourself believe everything it says to be true.

See how easily words can be twisted? Why should I just take you for what say?

No,you did not twist my words, you just made up
something utterly ridiculous.

And of course, made nothing resembling a sensible
response to what I said.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
No,you did not twist my words, you just made up
something utterly ridiculous.

And of course, made nothing resembling a sensible
response to what I said.
Kinda like what people do with the Bible.
 
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