ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
My point was that 71 is not the total number of people killed by firearms.
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TX GOP Lawmaker Brags About Not Doing Anything Useful to Stop Gun Violence
- Thread starter Skwim
- Start date
We Never Know
No Slack
Let me repeat this just in case you or anyone else missed it...
U.S. population= 327 million
Guns owned by civilians=383 million.
Guns clearly out number people.
1983 to present there have been 114 mass shootings in the U.S.
114 mass shootings/383 million guns= 0.0000297% of guns used for mass shootings.
If 200 million civilians own guns(it may be higher/lower)...
114 mass shootings/200 million guns owners= 0.000057% of gun owners use guns for mass shootings.
As for mental illness and mass shootings, IMO there is a correlation. These 10 were randomly picked, researched and the results are...
Las Vegas Shooter 2017. 58 killed. Shooter Stephen Paddock suffered anxiety and depression.
Aurora, Colorado shooting 2012. 12 killed. Shooter James Holmes suffered depression, halucinations among other things.
Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting 2012. 26 killed. Shooter Adam Lanza suffered anxiety, OCD, asperger's, and schizophrenia.
Living Church of God shooting 2005. 7 killed. Shooter Terry Ratzmann suffered from depression.
Red Lake, Minnesota 2005. 10 killed. Shooter Jeff Weise suffered depression, abuse, multiple suicide attemps.
Binghamton shootings 2009. 13 killed. The shooter Jiverly Antares Wong suffered depression.
Sandy Hook 2012. 26 killed. The shooter Adam Lanza suffered asperger's, depression, anxiety and OCD.
Washington Navy Yard 2013. 12 killed. The shooter Aaron Alexis suffered depression and hearing voices.
Charleston church 2015. 9 killed. The shooter Dylann Roof suffered depression and OCD.
Stoneman Douglas High School 2018. 17 killed. The shooter Nikolas Jacob Cruz suffered depression, autism, and ADHD
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
Except most studies show that people suffering from mental health problems are actually less likely to commit violent crime or mass shootings:
Mental Illness, Mass Shootings, and the Politics of American Firearms
Further, the American Psychological Society rejects the claim that we should blame mental health issues for mass shootings:
“Routinely blaming mass shootings on mental illness is unfounded and stigmatizing. Research has shown that only a very small percentage of violent acts are committed by people who are diagnosed with, or in treatment for, mental illness. The rates of mental illness are roughly the same around the world, yet other countries are not experiencing these traumatic events as often as we face them. One critical factor is access to, and the lethality of, the weapons that are being used in these crimes. Adding racism, intolerance and bigotry to the mix is a recipe for disaster.
“If we want to address the gun violence that is tearing our country apart, we must keep our focus on finding evidence-based solutions. This includes restricting access to guns for people who are at risk for violence and working with psychologists and other experts to find solutions to the intolerance that is infecting our nation and the public dialogue.”
Statement of APA President in Response to Mass Shootings in Texas, Ohio“If we want to address the gun violence that is tearing our country apart, we must keep our focus on finding evidence-based solutions. This includes restricting access to guns for people who are at risk for violence and working with psychologists and other experts to find solutions to the intolerance that is infecting our nation and the public dialogue.”
Looking exclusively at America and only using American statistics on this issue is always going to skew the figures. When you look at the whole world, there is only one significant difference between America and similar countries which don't have anywhere near the number of mass shootings or shootings in general - their approach to gun control.
Kangaroo Feathers
Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
So many of these "SEE?! People DO need their gunz for self defence! See!?" type cherry picked anecdotes seem to have been escalated largely by the fact that someone had a gun. One in particular I remember (many thousands of shootings ago) was a case where some guy hammered on a young lady's door in the middle of the night. She opened the door, he barged in, so she shot him. All the gun fetish types wet themselves with glee over it as an example of "self defence". Never once did any of them ask "why did she open the door in the first place?" Similar stories happen over and over again.
Now, I don't doubt that there ARE legitimate cases where someone breaks into a house with the express intent to do harm, and a gun was used to save a life. But...
A. How many of those people had a gun, but inadequate security generally? Would a decent security door and screens have stopped the would be harm doer from entry in the first place?
And
B. I sincerely suspect that the number of genuine, bonafide "it was him or me, and he broke in through my security door, explicitly to do me harm" cases are far fewer than the number of people who get killed accidentally or wrongfully by firearms. So yes, while I fully accept and agree that anyone who gets harmed by someone breaking in past a security system because they didn't have a gun is an absolute tragedy, simple "greatest good for greatest number" ethical arguments apply. If one life is legitimately and unambiguously saved at a rate less than the number of people wrongfully getting shot, the self defence argument loses its validity, IMHO.
Salvador
RF's Swedenborgian
Blaming the home invasion victim for not living in a impenetrable fortress doesn't change the fact there are indeed hundreds of justifiable gun homicides done by private American citizens each year. ...
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shmogie
Well-Known Member
Of course not.
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
Once again, compared with 11,000 homicides in the same period.Blaming the home invasion victim for not living in a impenetrable fortress doesn't change the fact there are indeed hundreds of justifiable gun homicides done by private American citizens each year. ...
Not exactly a great ratio.
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
Exactly. So comparing that number to the number of justifiable homicides and using them to conclude a general trend in "benefit" and "harm" of gun ownership is a gross misrepresentation of reality.
shmogie
Well-Known Member
I am simply pointing out that the shootings that drive the anti gun hysteria are statistically insignificant.
Of course, for the families it is horrendous, yet it is the same for all those who die everyday on the roads, or at home.
shmogie
Well-Known Member
Homicide simply means killed by another. Justifiably ?, illegally ? Accidental ?
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
It wasn't a comparison you made, it was Salvador who made it earlier.
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
In the case of the statistics provided earlier, it's homicides classed under "murder" for the year 2016, so unlawful homicides:
Expanded Homicide Data Table 4
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
You only think you "debunked" what I posted but you actually didn't. I correctly stated what the CPD chief of police stated about where most illegal guns used by Chicago gangs come from (Indiana), plus the fact that background checks have actually been used to catch some criminals is a matter of the public record. On top of that, what exactly is the problem with having universal background checks anyway, especially since 93% of Americans in a recent poll said they're in favor of them and this includes a majority of Republicans?
So, your "victory lap" is only based on imagination.
shmogie
Well-Known Member
Background checks are already required to purchase any firearm from a dealer. So, the ¨üniversal" background check means federal involvement in another aspect of life.
The background check bills before congress include much more than federal control of background checks, they include more restrictions, in my view unconstitutional restrictions.
The chief of CPD must be an idiot if he thinks the gangsters who regularly shoot up his city run to Indiana to legally buy a gun, that is laughable.
Perhaps he thinks the Indiana black market for firearms is more efficient and has better prices than the one in Illinois, I don think so.
He is just making an excuse to cover his butt because he can´t get a handle on the black market in Chicago.
A Black undercover cop in parts of Chicago, or a White one in other parts, could score an illegal gun in an hour.
We Never Know
No Slack
And again in the latest shooting in Texas. The shooter was banned from purchasing a firearm because of "mental illness".
So he bought one in a private sale which IMO private sales need to be regulated more.
We Never Know
No Slack
Normal people don't commit mass shootings.
Who does those studies say does mass shootings?
esmith
Veteran Member
Question. What makes Indiana laws easier to purchase firearms than Illinois laws?
Facts Dealing With FFL
If you are a business in Indiana and have a FFL you must conduct a background check to sell a long gun to a non-resident. However IL laws requires purchaser to have a FOID card. As per the ATF “ licensee may sell a rifle or shotgun to a person who is not a resident of the State where the licensee’s business premises is located in an over–the–counter transaction, provided the transaction complies with State law in the State where the licensee is located and in the State where the purchaser resides.”
Therefore a FFL must insure that the purchaser has an IL FOID card
If you are a business in Indiana and have a FFL and a non-resident purchases a handgun the dealer must transfer the weapon to a FFL dealer in the purchaser’s home state.
Facts Dealing With Private Transactions.
Under Federal law, an unlicensed individual is prohibited from transferring a firearm to an individual who does not reside in the State where the transferee resides. Generally, for a person to lawfully transfer a firearm to an unlicensed person who resides out of State, the firearm must be shipped to a Federal Firearms Licensee (FFL) within the recipient’s State of residence. He or she may then receive the firearm from the FFL upon completion of an ATF Form 4473 and a NICS background check.
Now after reading the above, either you misunderstood the CPD chief’s statement or he doesn’t know what he is talking about.
Now to your question “On top of that, what exactly is the problem with having universal background checks anyway?”
First what do you mean by “universal background checks”?
And to your statement “So, your "victory lap" is only based on imagination.”
No everything I have stated are facts. You just seem to do not have a clue to the current ATF, or the Gun Control Act of 1968.
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Maybe there's something in the drinking water.
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
While I agree that private sales do need more regulation, the fact is that people suffering from mental illness are statistically less likely to be murderers, including mass-murderers. They are actually more likely to be the victims of violence than the perpetrators.
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
Firstly, "normal people"?
Secondly, the current leading, direct cause of mass shootings is ideology, not mental illness.
People with a history of violence are the largest perpetrators (I know it's nearing a tautology, but it's the best indicator), along with extreme political and social ideology.
SOURCE: Psychiatry Online