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What the reason that made devil or Satan forces working against human from the beginning

j1i

Smiling is charity without giving money
The CCC has it that
391 Behind the disobedient choice of our first parents lurks a seductive voice, opposed to God, which makes them fall into death out of envy.266 Scripture and the Church's Tradition see in this being a fallen angel, called "Satan" or the "devil".267 The Church teaches that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: "The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing."268

392 Scripture speaks of a sin of these angels.269 This "fall" consists in the free choice of these created spirits, who radically and irrevocably rejected God and his reign. We find a reflection of that rebellion in the tempter's words to our first parents: "You will be like God."270 The devil "has sinned from the beginning"; he is "a liar and the father of lies"


Thank you for your generous participation
I enjoyed reading my brother

Do you think that God gave Satan the opportunity to be active, to observe public morality among creatures

In Christianity, God sent Jesus to rid ourselves of sins, not from the virus that caused the sinful and sinful infection of Satan.
Why in Christianity, after Jesus sacrifice GOD leaves Satan to do for subversive activity
Do you think there is another divine sacrifice coming
Because the criminal activity of sins in humans is much greater than in the past and more in terms of area and population and concentration

:hatchedchick: HUG
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
We have an answer in Islamic culture


But I want to know the answer from other cultures

Christian Indian Buddhism Judaism and other cultures

why devil tell Adam eat from this tree in Christianity
or other story in other culture

with respect
The why from the Christian perspective is that satan, a once exalted spiritual being who was cast out of heaven and bound to the earth wanted to hurt God through corrupting the created humans.

We Christians are told that there was war in heaven, and the war continues to today.

Our first parents, by disobeying God, became the first casualties of this war.
 

j1i

Smiling is charity without giving money
The why from the Christian perspective is that satan, a once exalted spiritual being who was cast out of heaven and bound to the earth wanted to hurt God through corrupting the created humans.

We Christians are told that there was war in heaven, and the war continues to today.

Our first parents, by disobeying God, became the first casualties of this war.


Thanks for sharing generously my friend

I remember you shared with me in previous topics

I missed you my friend
How are you and how is your family

Take care of yourself and thank you for the information you wrote

May God bless you :glomp:
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
Do you think that God gave Satan the opportunity to be active, to observe public morality among creatures

I think we have to keep in mind that what we are questioning is Mystery, always unfolding but never fully grasped. Why would Satan not also have free will.

In Christianity, God sent Jesus to rid ourselves of sins, not from the virus that caused the sinful and sinful infection of Satan.

That's one of and the most popular model of why Jesus. There is another which I tend to believe more, that Jesus was not God's after thought, nor was he sent as a scapegoat for our sin. Jesus was with God and the reason for creation was the Incarnation, God's desire for solidarity with man.

Why in Christianity, after Jesus sacrifice GOD leaves Satan to do for subversive

Did Satan not have free will?

From the CCC

Where does evil come from? "I sought whence evil comes and there was no solution", said St. Augustine,257 and his own painful quest would only be resolved by his conversion to the living God. For "the mystery of lawlessness" is clarified only in the light of the "mystery of our religion".258 The revelation of divine love in Christ manifested at the same time the extent of evil and the superabundance of grace.259 We must therefore approach the question of the origin of evil by fixing the eyes of our faith on him who alone is its conqueror.260

Do you think there is another divine sacrifice coming

No.

Because the criminal activity of sins in humans is much greater than in the past and more in terms of area and population and concentration

Is it really much greater or because of today's instant info we are more aware?
 

EtuMalku

Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
Thank you for your generous participation
I understood your view

But do you think that Satanism existed at the beginning of existence or is it the result of spiritual oxidation after a long time of existence

:hatchedchick: hug
Who the Hell is Satan?

Here’s my understanding of this “Old Enemy” as the literary scholar Neil Forsyth coined and what I consider to be the foundation of what is called Satanism.

Satan has always existed, only under other names and guises, Satan is a powerful and primordial archetype of man’s psyche . . . a meme, or what some may now call a “Godform”, I think the Magus of Chaos, Peter Carroll uses that term? This archetype is the reflection of how we perceive ourselves in relation to what we call the “others”. Satan is a social and cultural phenomenon as old as the mind of humanity itself. There has always and will always, be essentially two worldviews consisting of oppositions and they are “Us & Them” or “Me” and “the rest of you” . . . etc.

Sumerian and Akkadian tablets concur this worldview from the earliest known writings, the ancient Egyptian word for an Egyptian meant “human”, which excluded all who were not Egyptian to be relegated to ‘non-human’, the Greek word for non-Greeks was “barbaroi” (barbarians). The Jewish Essenes called anyone not an Essene “ha satan” (the adversary), Zoroastrianism set forth the dualistic “good” (what we believe in) and “evil” (what they believe in).

“A society does not simply discover its others, it fabricates them, by selecting, isolating, and emphasizing as aspect of another people’s life, and making it symbolize their difference”
– William Scott Green (Professor of the history of religion – ancient Judaism, biblical studies, and the theory of religion).

So, who/what is this Satan?
He simply is who you are not!

Etu Malku V° HH☿D
 

EtuMalku

Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
We have an answer in Islamic culture


But I want to know the answer from other cultures

Christian Indian Buddhism Judaism and other cultures

why devil tell Adam eat from this tree in Christianity
or other story in other culture

with respect
Ibn Arabi explains that Iblis is the imagination which would not prostrate itself to the intellect. Iblis has a special link to the Absolute and is the Platonic First Form Ideal that becomes a model for the separation of "I" from "Consciousness" independant of the Absolute. Those who worship Iblis are called the "separated ones" those who thrive in a state separate from Allah, Iblis becomes a guardian of the inner chamber of divinity where there is a Black Light, the realm beyond all duality.

The Ahl-i Haqq consider Iblis to be a spiritual champion and declares "rafiqi hu 'iiblis wa'ustadhi hu fireawn" (my companion is Iblis and my teacher is Pharaoh) based on their honor to their God in the wake of terror and defeat. Iblis is symbolized as a Black Light (Flame), the Dark Tresses of the Beloved and the Guardian of the Inner Realm. Here is the alchemical Midnight Sun and the Hindu concept of Maya which enlightens us to the objective universe as illusion and seduction, that the tresses at times reveal the face of the Beloved (Self) and at other times veils it.

The 'self' is the archetype of harmony between conscious and unconscious mind, and the True Higher Self becomes unveiled through the process of Individuation as various parts of the personality are brought into harmony with one another. The primordial image is a process of creative fantasy that is freely expressed through the incarnate self it is the Black Flame of Iblis.
_____________________________________________________

كتاب العواء في ليلة الصحراء
Kitab Aleawa' fi Laylat Alsahra'
'Amir Alzzalam
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
He was the Monarch of the Kingdom of Tyre. G-d was comparing his wealth etc. to the Garden of Eden and the Prince to a cherub, but the Prince has been dishonest in trade as He says in verse 18,

Because of the multitude of your iniquities, with the wrongdoing of your commerce, you profaned your sanctity, and I shall bring forth fire out of your midst-it will consume you, and I shall make you ashes on the ground before the eyes of all who see you.


Before this, in verses 5-7, this clearly is talking about a human whom G-d will destroy using armies from abroad,

With your great wisdom in your commerce did you increase your wealth, that your heart became haughty with your wealth?
Therefore, so said the Lord God: Because you made your heart like the heart of God,
Therefore, behold I am bringing foreigners, the strong of the nations, upon you, and they will draw their swords on the beauty of your wisdom and profane your brightness.

God's condemnation of the King of Tyre is a veiled judgment on satan the devil....unless you think this king was a "covering cherub" in the garden of Eden? The comparisons are clear. It explains why satan became an adversary of his God. He was overcome by his own magnificence and misused his power.

It is apparent that this king manifested the same personality traits as God's adversary. Even to the fact that he was thrown down to the earth (as is mentioned in Revelation.) Both will have the same outcome. The incorrigibly wicked have no future.

Who was "the adversary" who brought the trials inflicted on Job?
With whom was God conversing in Job 1 & 2....according to Jewish belief?
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
God's condemnation of the King of Tyre is a veiled judgment on satan the devil....unless you think this king was a "covering cherub" in the garden of Eden? The comparisons are clear. It explains why satan became an adversary of his God. He was overcome by his own magnificence and misused his power.

It is apparent that this king manifested the same personality traits as God's adversary. Even to the fact that he was thrown down to the earth (as is mentioned in Revelation.) Both will have the same outcome. The incorrigibly wicked have no future.

Who was "the adversary" who brought the trials inflicted on Job?
With whom was God conversing in Job 1 & 2....according to Jewish belief?
G-d was speaking with Satan, an angel.
 

j1i

Smiling is charity without giving money
Ibn Arabi explains that Iblis is the imagination which would not prostrate itself to the intellect. Iblis has a special link to the Absolute and is the Platonic First Form Ideal that becomes a model for the separation of "I" from "Consciousness" independant of the Absolute. Those who worship Iblis are called the "separated ones" those who thrive in a state separate from Allah, Iblis becomes a guardian of the inner chamber of divinity where there is a Black Light, the realm beyond all duality.

The Ahl-i Haqq consider Iblis to be a spiritual champion and declares "rafiqi hu 'iiblis wa'ustadhi hu fireawn" (my companion is Iblis and my teacher is Pharaoh) based on their honor to their God in the wake of terror and defeat. Iblis is symbolized as a Black Light (Flame), the Dark Tresses of the Beloved and the Guardian of the Inner Realm. Here is the alchemical Midnight Sun and the Hindu concept of Maya which enlightens us to the objective universe as illusion and seduction, that the tresses at times reveal the face of the Beloved (Self) and at other times veils it.

The 'self' is the archetype of harmony between conscious and unconscious mind, and the True Higher Self becomes unveiled through the process of Individuation as various parts of the personality are brought into harmony with one another. The primordial image is a process of creative fantasy that is freely expressed through the incarnate self it is the Black Flame of Iblis.
_____________________________________________________

كتاب العواء في ليلة الصحراء
Kitab Aleawa' fi Laylat Alsahra'
'Amir Alzzalam
Who the Hell is Satan?

Here’s my understanding of this “Old Enemy” as the literary scholar Neil Forsyth coined and what I consider to be the foundation of what is called Satanism.

Satan has always existed, only under other names and guises, Satan is a powerful and primordial archetype of man’s psyche . . . a meme, or what some may now call a “Godform”, I think the Magus of Chaos, Peter Carroll uses that term? This archetype is the reflection of how we perceive ourselves in relation to what we call the “others”. Satan is a social and cultural phenomenon as old as the mind of humanity itself. There has always and will always, be essentially two worldviews consisting of oppositions and they are “Us & Them” or “Me” and “the rest of you” . . . etc.

Sumerian and Akkadian tablets concur this worldview from the earliest known writings, the ancient Egyptian word for an Egyptian meant “human”, which excluded all who were not Egyptian to be relegated to ‘non-human’, the Greek word for non-Greeks was “barbaroi” (barbarians). The Jewish Essenes called anyone not an Essene “ha satan” (the adversary), Zoroastrianism set forth the dualistic “good” (what we believe in) and “evil” (what they believe in).

“A society does not simply discover its others, it fabricates them, by selecting, isolating, and emphasizing as aspect of another people’s life, and making it symbolize their difference”
– William Scott Green (Professor of the history of religion – ancient Judaism, biblical studies, and the theory of religion).

So, who/what is this Satan?
He simply is who you are not!

Etu Malku V° HH☿D


I really enjoyed reading your ideas and the way they were told

Like what you told me devil wants an entity for himself to satisfy desire or tell lust to be a god
But he unfortunately devil wants a non-noble non-noble leader
Villainous in doing inappropriate things


Historically, It is said that a civilization that does not embrace morality and values falls rapidly


You seem sad, my friend, because your religion is tied to the devil

I will give you advice
If life doesn't smile, tickle it :D dont follow Satan
be my friend :)
kidding
Thank you :hatchedchick:
 
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j1i

Smiling is charity without giving money
Is it really much greater or because of today's instant info we are more aware?

At first I thank you for your generosity and your detailed participation

I will answer your question
It is true that the media has highlighted many unethical issues

But the world population is 7 billion and will rise to a maximum of 10 and will not increase because of fertility impairment

The sins are now my friend, much more than the time of Jesus
The population of the world was previously a maximum of 50 million

GOD bless you :hugehug:
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
We have an answer in Islamic culture
First thank you for sharing the video. Very nice and interesting. While listening I had quite a few times this "aha feeling"; connection of Islam with my faith. I like and enjoy the differences in all faiths as well as the similarities. Together they give me a better idea about God, esp. that God is beyond my understanding.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
We have an answer in Islamic culture
But I want to know the answer from other cultures
Christian Indian Buddhism Judaism and other cultures
why devil tell Adam eat from this tree in Christianity
or other story in other culture
with respect
My personal idea about "Devil Tree Adam Serpent Eve story":
Serpent is symbol of kundalini and healing, transformation; desire blocks this. Tree of knowledge from good and bad is symbol for judgment.

When there is no thought (mind is bundle of thoughts), one is in Paradise. The moment desires start, this seeing good and evil (judging) starts, and unity (Divinity) is lost and mind rules; out of Paradise.

We are all sparks of the Divine. You die, means in this context that your Awareness of the Divine is gone.
 
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EtuMalku

Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
I really enjoyed reading your ideas and the way they were told
I would prefer you comprehend them rather than just enjoy them.

Like what you told me devil wants an entity for himself to satisfy desire or tell lust to be a god
But he unfortunately devil wants a non-noble non-noble leader
Villainous in doing inappropriate things
Perhaps you could point out where I said that?

You seem sad, my friend, because your religion is tied to the devil
How can you tell my emotional status from reading something I posted? I think, you are projecting your own emotions, in this case 'sadness', onto me and my post because you are very confused with your spirituality.

I will give you advice
If life doesn't smile, tickle it :D dont follow Satan
be my friend :)
kidding
Thank you :hatchedchick:
Thanks for the advice . . . :confused:
 

j1i

Smiling is charity without giving money
I would prefer you comprehend them rather than just enjoy them.

Perhaps you could point out where I said that?

i meant the Ibn arabi and Plato views (what you write = what you told) im little poor in deep English


Iblis becomes a guardian of the inner chamber of divinity where there is a Black Light, the realm beyond all duality.


about your sad feeling
Logo picture you place

It shows that you are sad because there is no story in history that I read showing that snakes are doing a noble job

That is why you may be saddened by the choice of characters with an evil role

Sorry, I do not mean to insult, but this is what motivated me to do so and I do not mean to diagnose the situation

:hatchedchick:
 

j1i

Smiling is charity without giving money
My personal idea about "Devil Tree Adam Serpent Eve story":
Serpent is symbol of kundalini and healing, transformation; desire blocks this. Tree of knowledge from good and bad is symbol for judgment.

When there is no thought (mind is bundle of thoughts), one is in Paradise. The moment desires start, this seeing good and evil (judging) starts, and unity (Divinity) is lost and mind rules; out of Paradise.

We are all sparks of the Divine. You die, means in this context that your Awareness of the Divine is gone.


First thank you for sharing the video. Very nice and interesting. While listening I had quite a few times this "aha feeling"; connection of Islam with my faith. I like and enjoy the differences in all faiths as well as the similarities. Together they give me a better idea about God, esp. that God is beyond my understanding.


Thank you for sharing beautifully my friend
And give a wonderful view

With sincere respect and appreciation :hatchedchick:
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Thank you for sharing beautifully my friend
And give a wonderful view

With sincere respect and appreciation :hatchedchick:
You're welcome.

And it was a great idea to place this Satan/Hell thread in Discussion and not in Debate; made it look like Heaven with all the respectful replies full of hearts:)
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
There is no devil figure in Germanic religion. It's a completely different worldview than what you have in Abrahamic religions.
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
There is no devil figure in Germanic religion. It's a completely different worldview than what you have in Abrahamic religions.
When you have an all-powerful god figure, a whiny little rebellious angel seems a really weird concept; what does it hope to achieve exactly? It's nonsense.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
When you have an all-powerful god figure, a whiny little rebellious angel seems a really weird concept; what does it hope to achieve exactly? It's nonsense.
Exactly. It doesn't make any sense. It reminds me of Hinduism. There are malicious demons in Hinduism but they're not viewed as completely evil. They're just immature, basically. They pose no real threat to the order of the cosmos and are always eventually defeated by the deities. Sometimes they spiritually progress to a more advanced state, too. That makes sense to me. No being can overcome the laws of the universe, even a deity, in this line of thought. So there is nothing that can truly threaten it for good.

But this dualism where the figures are locked in a cosmic battle is strange. It might have been a distortion of observing the cycles of nature. Because it seems the "evil devil" idea is a ripoff from Zoroastrianism which itself came from Indo-Iranian religion. Indo-European religions have the chaos war motif where the deities fight the forces of chaos that threaten the order of the cosmos (ancient Egyptian religion has this theme, too). So maybe this dualism in Christianity is a sort of outgrowth of that sort of concept.

Of course, in my view, the chaotic forces or "giants" aren't evil or even necessarily bad. They're just part of the natural cycles of the universe. We just tend to prefer the forces that uphold order for obvious reasons.
 
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