Religion without words?

amorphous_constellation · Aug 31, 2019

Wild Fox said:
Religion without words - How do we identify religion without a textual representation or language? Considering religion as behavior and experienced not read about might give a different insight into what is religion.

Yeah I was pondering that as well lately. What is this whole idea with the 'word made flesh' really saying about what words are in western culture. Words are constructed of little sound code symbols, and they get the most power and ability to construct or deconstruct our human reality.

Wild Fox said:
If you were to observe a group of people in which you could not communicate with nor understood their language, how would you determine if they have a religion. What can we learn about religion without language and is language absolutely necessary to understand religion? Given that religion is felt and experienced beyond the written word, what can we learn experiences and behaviors without the attached linguistic context.

Probably by watching their behavior for things I thought were curious.

Howard Is · Aug 31, 2019

ideogenous_mover said:
Words are constructed of little sound code symbols, and they get the most power and ability to construct or deconstruct our human reality.

Which is what made priests so powerful in a world where 99% of the population was illiterate.

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. “

The use of visual imagery was hugely important in conveying the meaning. Icons, stained glass windows, statues, before ordinary people could read the texts. Which weren’t available anyway, in early Christian history at least.

Rituals involving masks and performance are another sign, and a nonverbal way of transmitting and maintaining a group’s core beliefs.

Those things would be something to look for if you are looking for evidence of religion.

PureX · Aug 31, 2019

Moz said:
I would say that the Australian aboriginal belief system, for example, could be described as more cosmological than theological if you get my drift.

I have always been fascinated by their unique and very creative conceptualization of the Mystery. Their mythical stories are at once both very magical and yet very practical, acting as a kind of continental 'maping system' of where and how to find food, water, and of human social conditions. An amazingly powerful collection of information all contained within an interlocking set of mythical stories that could be conveyed through words, dances, and painted images.

dfnj · Aug 31, 2019

Wild Fox said:
Religion without words
So. if you were to go on an expedition and come across a group/tribe of people with an unknown language who had no written words, what could you observe in their behavior individually and or collectively that would identify they have a religion and the behaviors that could be associated with their religion?

Bear Wild · Aug 31, 2019

sojourner said:
I think language is essential, although language means more than just words -- either spoken or written. Religion is the way in which we define, encapsulate or organize our spiritual experiences, which are internal. In order to do that, some sort of language is necessary.

While spiritual experience may be deeper than that for which we have language, when we organize those experiences in front of us, we need some language, whether it be written, spoken, sung, or acted out. Because our spiritual experience needs to be grounded in something we can make sense of and communicate.

I think language is secondary to what we actually experience and what drives us in religion. Yes it is the way we communicate about our experiences but language is limited in what it describes compared to what is experience. I would describe religion as more biologically in nature driven by affect more than rationalized. I personally believe that emotions and the subcortical experience plays a far greater roll in religion than what especially western philosophy has been willing to give it.

sojourner · Aug 31, 2019

Wild Fox said:
I think language is secondary to what we actually experience and what drives us in religion. Yes it is the way we communicate about our experiences but language is limited in what it describes compared to what is experience. I would describe religion as more biologically in nature driven by affect more than rationalized. I personally believe that emotions and the subcortical experience plays a far greater roll in religion than what especially western philosophy has been willing to give it.

Well, yes, of course. But what I was getting at was that when we bring that interior experience out, we need language to express it, whether it be verbal or nonverbal.

Bear Wild · Aug 31, 2019

ideogenous_mover said:
Yeah I was pondering that as well lately. What is this whole idea with the 'word made flesh' really saying about what words are in western culture. Words are constructed of little sound code symbols, and they get the most power and ability to construct or deconstruct our human reality.

Probably by watching their behavior for things I thought were curious.

I agree we have relied on language in the western culture too much in understanding religion. The words become absolute despite their obvious limitations and multiple interpretations. Religion is felt/experienced and lived with the language coming secondary. Singing, dancing, meditation and even reverence has more to do with our affective brain than our cognitive. We then translate it to language to communicate.

Behavior especially outside what could be seen as behaviors necessary to survive could represent what we can attribute to religion.

Bear Wild · Aug 31, 2019

Howard Is said:
Which is what made priests so powerful in a world where 99% of the population was illiterate.

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. “

The use of visual imagery was hugely important in conveying the meaning. Icons, stained glass windows, statues, before ordinary people could read the texts. Which weren’t available anyway, in early Christian history at least.

Rituals involving masks and performance are another sign, and a nonverbal way of transmitting and maintaining a group’s core beliefs.

Those things would be something to look for if you are looking for evidence of religion.

This would place religion to connected to power and politics. Language becomes a powerful tool for control then. I would argue that the language has that power because of its influence on emotional responses that get connected to the words. The words or any symbols become connected with our experiences of fear or joy, Look how religious experiences become interconnected with fear of others that are different such as what happened after 9/11 with some Christian groups in the United States and the fear and rage that became connected with the anti-muslim movement. What is driving the movement is not the words but the affective response.

sojourner · Aug 31, 2019

Wild Fox said:
I agree we have relied on language in the western culture too much in understanding religion. The words become absolute despite their obvious limitations and multiple interpretations. Religion is felt/experienced and lived with the language coming secondary. Singing, dancing, meditation and even reverence has more to do with our affective brain than our cognitive. We then translate it to language to communicate.

Behavior especially outside what could be seen as behaviors necessary to survive could represent what we can attribute to religion.

I think we need to distinguish between spiritual experience and religion, though. Spiritual experience is largely an interior phenomenon. Religion is the way in which we motivate or express it. Language is more than just words -- wither spoken or written. it can also be images, movement, art, ritual. That's why I say that language is fundamental to religion.

Bear Wild · Aug 31, 2019

sojourner said:
I think we need to distinguish between spiritual experience and religion, though. Spiritual experience is largely an interior phenomenon. Religion is the way in which we motivate or express it. Language is more than just words -- wither spoken or written. it can also be images, movement, art, ritual. That's why I say that language is fundamental to religion.

Can you have religion without the linguistic (spoken and written) relying on the other ways of communication. Was there no form of religion before the linguistic side of communication developed?

sojourner · Aug 31, 2019

Wild Fox said:
Can you have religion without the linguistic (spoken and written) relying on the other ways of communication. Was there no form of religion before the linguistic side of communication developed?

Religion is a cultural interactive phenomenon that probably developed along with language.

paarsurrey · Sep 4, 2019

Religion without words?

Did anybody here come to see such phenomenon, please?

Regards

paarsurrey · Sep 5, 2019

Religion without words?

One may like to read my post #1 in another thread which is very relevant here, please.

Regards

IndigoChild5559 · Sep 8, 2019

Religion in its highest form cannot be put into words. God is infinte, and the infinte cannot be encompassed by the finite.

The problem with that, however, is that it's not practicle. It makes a religion common to groups of people impossible, and that's not a great thing. For religion to be socially shared, it must be put into words. Will it lose something in the translation? Of course. But it's worth it.

Religion without words?

amorphous_constellation

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Howard Is

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PureX

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dfnj

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Bear Wild

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sojourner

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Bear Wild

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Bear Wild

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sojourner

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Bear Wild

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sojourner

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paarsurrey

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paarsurrey

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IndigoChild5559

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