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Jessica

In the ancient world the majority of people couldn't read so write, so history was passed down to new generations by eye-witnesses word of mouth, as illustrated by this little story i've woven around a Bible incident involving a woman we'll call Jessica in Mark chapter 5..

JESSICA by Mick
Jessica had a good life in ancient Israel, she grew into a fine young woman, got married and had children, and was kind and friendly to all.
Like everyone else, she knew the story of the young carpenter from Nazareth who the snooty priests had killed years before when she was just a little girl,and she often used to sit and think about him and wished she'd seen him.
The years passed, and grey hairs began to appear. Her dear father died of old age, and then her mother became gravely ill. As she sat at her bedside holding her hand and talking to her, their conversation turned to years gone by.
"Mum" she said, "you were a young woman when Jesus was alive,and i just wonder if you ever saw him?"
Her mother looked up into her eyes and said with a gentle smile:- "Well yes, as a matter of fact he came to our town one day when you were just a little girl,but you wouldn't remember because you were...very ill.."
"Wow mum!" replied Jessica "and did you manage to catch a glimpse of him among all the crowds?"
"Yes i did,in fact he came down our very street!" replied her mother.
"Really?" asked Jessica in wide-eyed astonishment.
"Yes darling" answered her mother, "and as a matter of fact your dad ran out to him and asked him to come into our house"
Hearing this, Jessica's jaw dropped in amazement.
"Oh mum, thats fantastic!..I wish i hadn't been ill or i'd have remembered it, and i could have held his hand and talked to him!"
"Darling" replied her mother tenderly, "I've never told you this before,but when he came in he held your hand and he spoke to you!"
"Wow thats absolutely incredible mum!" said Jessica in delight, "And what did he say to me?"
Her mother looked into her beloved daughters eyes and replied:- "He said to you softly and gently 'Get up little girl'.."
"Ooh and what happened then mum?"
"You came back to life darling" answered her mum, "he brought you back to us.."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Mark ch 5 - "He went in and said to them, "Why all this commotion and wailing? The child is not dead but asleep." But they laughed at him.
After he put them all out, he took the child's father and mother and the disciples who were with him, and went in where the child was.
He took her by the hand and said to her, "Talitha koum!" (which means, "Little girl, I say to you, get up!" )
------------------------------------------
 

PureX

Veteran Member
But as anyone who's played 'telegraph' in grade school knows, passing information on by word of mouth inevitably alters the information. And when there is an intent, or agenda, behind the act of passing informations on to others verbally, the teller will inevitably alter the information to better support their intent. It's just a fact of human nature.
 
PureX said:
But as anyone who's played 'telegraph' in grade school knows, passing information on by word of mouth inevitably alters the information And when there is an intent, or agenda, behind the act of passing informations on to others verbally, the teller will inevitably alter the information to better support their intent. It's just a fact of human nature.


Make up your mind ;)
Atheists and nonchristians often say the Bible is full of contradictions, but now you're saying people have been tidying it up over the centuries to make it look good.
So which is it?
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Mick in England said:
Make up your mind ;)
Atheists and nonchristians often say the Bible is full of contradictions, but now you're saying people have been tidying it up over the centuries to make it look good.
So which is it?
Obviously, it's both. The bible is a huge collection of texts written and edited over the course of centuries by many different authors and editors with many different intents and agengas. So it's no surprise that we would find a lot of different ways of characterizing it, depending of which parts of it we're discussing.
 
PureX said:
Obviously, it's both. The bible is a huge collection of texts written and edited over the course of centuries by many different authors and editors with many different intents and agengas. So it's no surprise that we would find a lot of different ways of characterizing it, depending of which parts of it we're discussing.


Supposing I sat down to write a book about Elvis Presley even though I don't know much about him.
People would soon start saying "hey this is rubbish, Elvis wasn't like that at all!".
See, its the same with the Bible, people would have soon started shouting "hey its rubbish, Jesus wasn't like that at all" if phoney gospels and stuff were written.
Right Elvis?
"Uh-huh"..
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Mick in England said:
Supposing I sat down to write a book about Elvis Presley even though I don't know much about him.
People would soon start saying "hey this is rubbish, Elvis wasn't like that at all!".
See, its the same with the Bible, people would have soon started shouting "hey its rubbish, Jesus wasn't like that at all" if phoney gospels and stuff were written.
But no one was writing anything about Jesus until many years after he was gone. Even eye-witnesses will have twisted their memories of him after 60 years had passed. And since most people in Jesus' time only lived to be about 45 years old, it's doubtfull that anyone who actually met Jesus was still alive when people began writing "gospels" about him.

You do realize, that most scholars agree that the gospels we have were very likely not written by anyone who actually would have known Jesus directly. Three of them are basically copies of a gospel that no longer exists, and that no one knows who wrote, and the fourth is suspected to have been written about 200 years later.
 
PureX said:
You do realize, that most scholars agree that the gospels we have were very likely not written by anyone who actually would have known Jesus directly..


Ha ha ha, just because somebody's a "scholar" cuts no ice with God ;)
Jesus said:- "I thank you Father for hiding these things from the wise and learned,and for revealing them to little children"(Matt 11:25-27)
"Peter and John amazed the crowds by being ordinary unschooled men" (Acts 4:13)

The fact is we know a heck of a lot about the gospel-writers :)
Matthew and John were actual disciples, gospel-writer Mark was a mate of Jesus's right-hand man Peter, and gospel-writer Luke was a mate of Paul -

Matthew the disciple, formerly Levi (Mark 2:14; Luke 5:27) son of Alpheus, was formerly a tax collector (Luke 5:29-30) one of the 12 apostles handpicked by Jesus (Matthew 9:9), he wrote his gospel between c.60 and 80 AD after Mark wrote his first.

Mark (Latin, "Marcus") also called John, Mark was a cousin of Barnabas (Colossians 4:10), a disciple of Peter (1 Peter 5:13) a helpful co-worker of Paul (2 Timothy 4:11), wrote his gospel c.60AD not long after some Apostolic Letters were written: i.e., James, Galatians, 1 and 2 Thessalonians, 1 & 2 Corinthians, and Romans. His mother was one of the Marys (Acts 12:12) from an influential and probably wealthy family, and so some speculated that the last supper was held in their home and that he was the young man in Mark 14:51-52 which is not in the other accounts.

Luke, a physician (2 Tim. 4:11) and a gentile convert (Luke 1:2) probably by Paul who became his traveling companion (Acts 17:1; 20:5, 6-21:18 ). He wrote his gospel c.65 AD; and

John the disciple, (John 13:23) son of Zebedee, the brother of James the "greater" (Matthew 4:21; 10:2; Mark 1:19; 3:17; 10:35) wrote his gospel c.95AD, the last to be written before Revelation. Also from a wealthy family (Mark 1:20; Luke 5:3; John 19:27). His mother was probably Salome (Matthew 27:56; Mark 15:40). He was one of the closest disciples to Jesus among the twelve (Matthew 17:1; 26:37; Mark 5:37; 13:3). He was zealous (Matthew 20:20-24; Mark 3:17; 10:35-41; Luke 9:49, 54). He became one the leaders of the Jerusalem Church (Acts 15:6; Galatians 2:9) and of the seven churches in Asia (Revelation 1:11). He was banished to the island of Patmos where he wrote Revelation.
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
PureX said:
But as anyone who's played 'telegraph' in grade school knows, passing information on by word of mouth inevitably alters the information. And when there is an intent, or agenda, behind the act of passing informations on to others verbally, the teller will inevitably alter the information to better support their intent. It's just a fact of human nature.

I completely agree with you, but I still think it is a good story. Maybe that is all religion is about, just people telling stories to each other. And maybe that is all it needs to be about, as long as they are good stories.
 

Random

Well-Known Member
PureX said:
But as anyone who's played 'telegraph' in grade school knows, passing information on by word of mouth inevitably alters the information. And when there is an intent, or agenda, behind the act of passing informations on to others verbally, the teller will inevitably alter the information to better support their intent. It's just a fact of human nature.

This could and does apply to the written word just as much as the oral tradition, though.
 
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